Except that B already has acknowledged to M that he knows (now) they were stolen and relied on his lawyer as a reason not to refund. I suppose B could lie about that too, in a hypothetical trial.

sweet Jam reference indeed
 

because I'm not that quick, I have only gradually grasped the point people have made about the dealer not even being willing to give up his profit. i think it's important enough to be underlined.

for those who are similarly dim, look at it this way:

dealer buys items for $1000, quickly resells them for $4000. (these amounts are hypothetical.) shortly thereafter it's discovered that the items were stolen. all legalities aside, shouldn't the dealer at the very least offer to refund the buyer $3000???? that would lessen the sting for the buyer considerably, and yet in doing so the dealer has not actually lost a penny relative to where he was before the whole thing started.


the more I understand, the more angry I get about it. in this case the dealer seems to have decided that the risk to his reputation is less important than keeping someone else's money which (if i am reading earlier posts correctly) he has no basis for considering it to be his! in the first place!!

do we want someone like this in our hobby?

Tim-The dealer has already been outed (post 82). No need to be cryptic any more. I'm surprised he has not come on the board to defend his actions.

Alright guys, I am B. A lot has been said in this thread and I would like you to hear the entire story, as well as, voice my opinion.

First, I regret the way this entire deal has transpired. Over the past year, actions that I thought were going to happen never have (meaning A actually pressing charges against his brother)

I will keep other parties names incognito, they can chime in if they prefer.

Sometime during the Spring of 2016 a collector, we will call him T, walks into a card shop in West Virginia (I believe it was WV). He meets another so called collector while in the shop. We will call him the thief. The thief tells T that he and his father collected for many years, his father recently passed and now he is interested in selling their collection. I was told the owner of the card shop only dealt in modern cards and allowed the two to discuss a sale/purchase. Long story short, T purchases cards from the thief.

T holds on to the cards for some time then decides to sell some/all to a shop in Cincinnati . The shop owner, we will call him S, is a very knowledgeable dealer who has been around for many years. I have been dealing with him for over 10 years. S purchases some cards from T. S doesn't have a lot of local cliental to sell obscure tobacco cards so he calls me to see if I have interest. I tell S that I know a collector/dealer who may be interested.
At this point I call M and ask if he is interested, he is, and we make a deal. I mail M the cards and he mails me a check.

At this point 3 different collector/dealers have handled these cards. All of us have done some research and valuation of the cards. I can say for a FACT, I did not get these cards at a steal by any means. I purchased these only to help out a collector and then sold the cards to M for a 10% markup.

Fast forward a few months to the 2016 National in Atlantic City. A comes running up to me saying his collection was stolen and M has some of his cards for sale at his table. A asks me where I got the cards, I tell him I bought them from S. I proceed to call S to find out who he bought them from. He tells me he bought them from T. I happen to know T a little so I ask S for his phone number and call him. T then proceeds to tell me he bought them from the thief, the brother of A. At this point everyone involved; myself, M, S and T had no idea we were handling stolen cards.

Myself and T discuss what has happened. I contact S again and discuss with him as well. We all agree to have M hold the cards for safe keeping until we can discuss with authorities on how best to proceed. Although M & I know A, the other parties do not know if this is a hoax or if the cards were really stolen. They want A to press charges against his brother and then they will disburse the monies to appropriate parties. I tell M what has been discussed by the others involved. M makes the decision to immediately turns the cards over to A.

I spent the next day or two at the National discussing the theft with A and try to help him the best I can. I provided him all the parties contact info, gave him names of other shops in the area, as well as, a few local collectors who may have purchased cards from the thief. A tells myself and M that he will be pressing charges against the thief. While he did end up filing a incident report, to the best of my knowledge, a lawsuit or charges were NEVER filed against his brother, the thief.

I was never advocating to hold the cards hostage. I never wanted to keep stolen property - I simply wanted A to actually prove that these cards were stolen by pressing charges against his brother.

M is a well known, honest guy. While I can't blame him for turning the cards over, I do wish we could have discussed with the proper authorities before moving forward.

After reading this thread it seems many different opinions, both legal and personal, are being tossed around.

Here are some FACTS that you have not been privy to:

I did offer M the profit that I made off the deal which was 10%. If M wants me to post my most recent correspondence with him I gladly will.

I never lawyered up, I simply asked advice from a friend of mine who happens to be a lawyer. I was not trying to cut off communication with M, he never replied to my last email.

I attempted to work with all parties to facilitate a reasonable outcome.

I never firmly stated to M that I would not work with him in some way.


This has been a terrible situation for all parties involved. I reached out to A and never received a response. To me A has disappeared, the thief has gotten off with everything and now M and I are caught in the middle.

I sure wish M would have just communicated with me personally without bringing Tim into this. I understand that Tim wants to help his friend, but he has caused confusion, as all the facts have not been stated.

I am not sure what Jay Cee is suggesting, I certainly was not having a sleezy conversation with my wife about this. I was upset and unsure how to handle this, considering it was within a few hours of discovering this has happened. To state that publically is complete BS.


M call or email me to discuss or if needed, feel free to make this as public as Tim has.

That's for sure, but Paul was burnt out by that point and looking to go more in the blue-eyed soul direction anyway. I couldn't believe that the same guy who did In The City was the guy who did My Ever Changing Moods, but artists evolve. I didn't expect to see Elvis Costello jamming with Burt Bacharach either.

So now it appears as though B never had ownership of the cards. He just facilitated a transaction between S and M with a small fee. Acting as an agent I believe.

Still looks like the brothers made off with the cards and the money. And still looks like M shouldn't have jumped the process because now no charges were filed.

Chris-I'm not a lawyer and I don't know what proper legal protocol is, but I would think that you should make a full refund to M. You should then go to S and get a full refund from him. S should then go to T and get a full refund from him; at this point T is out his purchase price from A's brother and he should sue him for that sum and press charges. At that point, since A supposedly has not pressed charges, he can acknowledge the theft to the police or reimburse T, at which point T would have no further damages and might drop the case.

Eric-I know A. I am fairly certain he had nothing to do with the theft. Also, although it appears that Buckler was effectively a conduit, if M made payment to him I would think legally he had taken ownership and conveyed ownership of the cards (ie he owned them) although such ownership may have been for a minimal amount of time.

To clarify, I wasn't stating that as a deal or agreement on both brothers part. It's just how it ended up.

The sleezy convo I over heard was you talking to another guy in the isle by your showcase. I was the guy looking at the Cobb postcards which your wife was helping me, as she was working the booth. I had to go look at shiney stuff in your booth, to eves drop better as I know you didnt know who I was. I was there for ten minutes and your wife asked me if I wanted to see anything else and I said I was good. Dealer M knows everything I heard. Glad you came on the Thread Chris.