Is it possible that those two brands were successful and large enough thAt they didn't need additional promotion?

T206 Reference/Reflections...Any guesses why no CHESTERFIELD or LUCKY STRIKE T-cards?
 

Hi Rich

LUCKY STRIKE cigarettes were not that popular a brand until the 1920's.

One of the most popular cigarette brands circa 1909 - 1911 was PIEDMONT.
And, especially in the South and Southeast.


And, the CHESTERFIELD brand was introduced in 1912.


TED Z
.

Interesting. Usually everything hinges on marketing and the need to drive sales. I'm really surprised, then, that these two brands never hosted cards.

T206 Reference.....Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc....and, let's get your inputs
 

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 REFERENCE....Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...C150x30xxz.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...ohnson208x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...t150x12xxx.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...raphicbldg.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...yab350x19x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...CobbSGCx12.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...ITxSGC30xx.jpg
.... Sweet Caporal .... Sovereign .......... Piedmont____The "House" that created these Tobacco cards__American Beauty ... Sovereign .......... UZIT



This thread will provide references to major contributions posted on Net54 these past 14 years that have formed a better understanding of "The Monster" [as Bill Heitman
so aptly coined his T206 book (circa 1980)].

Let's start with the 2005-2006 publication of Scot Reader's Inside T206
An excellent, very informative, and well written book that inspired many of us Net54ers to post our experiences and theory's regarding the complexities of the T206 series.

One of the early and very significant T206 threads was posted in June 2006 by Barry Arnold, titled T206 EPDG- - - how rare in your collection ?
This thread sparked lots of brainstorming among Net54ers regarding T206's. It included surveys; and, various aspects of the T206 series were explored.....resulting in 363
meaningful posts. Furthermore, between many of us Net54ers, it was "the start of of a beautiful friendship" (to quote Claude Raines to Humphrey Bogart in Casablanca).

In the Summer of 2006, Bill Brown posted his T206 Super-Set (excel) spreadsheet. Bill received 1000's of inputs from Net54ers for this spreadsheet. It was a great start
in the pursuit of what a T206 "master" set would be comprised of....T206 Super-Set

Sept 2007, I started a thread titled Joe Doyle NAT'L and it's 11 "cousins"....SURVEY to explore certain PIEDMONT 350 cards that I considered as rare as the Joe Doyle
"error" card. I eventually referred to these particular T206's as the Elite 11


Subsequent posts in this thread will expand on theory's regarding the structure of the T206 series and the front/back permutations that have resulted. A fair number of the
theory's presented on Net54 (since 2006) have withstood the test of time. Providing accurate lists of which front/back combos were printed. And, which ones are No-Prints.

So, stay tuned......many more T206 "oldies but goodies" References and Reflections will be posted here.

And, feel free to contribute any meaningful T206 stories, or experiences collecting T206's that you have.

__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ___________________________________

INDEX

Post #1......Introduction....plus Scot Reader's " Inside T206 " book, and 3 significant T206 threads (circa..2006) for starters.


Click on the topic of interest, then scan page for Post # noted


Post #2......The beginning of the six "Super-Prints"

Post #4......SOVEREIGN phantom "350/460" series (apple green cards)

Post #5......350/460 series backs identified

Post #8......350/460 series mutually-exclusive cards

Post #22.....T206 Plank mystery

Post #25.....T206 DRUM's...."A-B-C-D" connection

Post #26.....A-B-C-D connection expanded

Post #28.....1910 COUPON (T213-1) sub-set

Post #30.....Ty Cobb / Ty Cobb back

Post #31.....T206 Checklists....plus 1910 COUPON, T215-1 and Ty Cobb/Ty Cobb

Posts #33 & 34.....Richard Russell's unique T206 collection

Posts #35 - 36 & 38.....Exclusive 12 group (460-only series)

Post #39.....AMERICAN BEAUTY 350 No Frame subjects = DRUM subjects

Posts #44 & 48.....Collecting T206 sets....tell us your story's

Post #54.....T206 all-PIEDMONT set

Post #65......SOVEREIGN set story

Post #69......SWEET CAPORAL, Factory #30 set story

Posts #72 & 74......AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 adventure

Posts #76 - 77......T206 cards RE-FRONTED (or re-backed)....FAKE's !

Post #93.....T206 "Proofs"

Post #96.....UZIT checklist

Post #97.....Spring of 1911....T206 era ends....the start of the "Golden era" begins

Post #98.....ATC Factory's associated with the White-Bordered cards (1909 - 1911)

Posts #101 & 106.....BROAD LEAF 460 checklist

Post #107.....Hobby greats....Frank Nagy and Bill Heitman

Post #108.....CAROLINA BRIGHTS checklist

Post #124.....PIEDMONT 460, Factory #42 checklist

Posts #128 - 131.....Why are Connie Mack, Jack Coombs, Shoeless Joe Jackson, Smoky Joe Wood missing in the T206 set ?

Posts #134 & 138.....Timeline of the T206 POLAR BEAR cards

Post #144.....T206 OLD MILL (Major League series) cards

Post #146..... T206 OLD MILL Southern League cards

Post #161.....Southern League cards (continued)

Post #162.....T206 Southern Leaguers Brown OLD MILL cards

Post #171.....The mysterious T206 brown LENOX cards

Post #181.....SWEET CAPORAL 460, Factory #30 backs (w/o Factory #42 overprint)

Post #190.....El Principe de Gales T206 cards

Post #196.....SWEET CAPORAL 350-460, Factory #42 overprint cards

Post #198.....Regional source of the Elite 11 cards

Posts #201 >> 227.....Show-n-tell us of your favorite T206's

Posts #231 >> 234.....Show-n-tell us of your T206 Run(s)

Posts #242 >> 248.....Show-n-tell us of your T206 Run(s)

Posts #263 >> 270.....T206 color printing errors......let's see some of these interesting T206's

Posts #271 >> 276.....T206 color printing errors......let's see some of these interesting T206's

Posts #282 >> 294.....The mysterious nature of the Red HINDU cards

Posts #302 >> 316.....Show-n-tell us of your MAGIE cards

Posts #328 >> 333.....T206 150-only subjects......

Posts #334 >> 346.....T206 TRIVIA QUIZ....1st correct answer wins T206

Posts #353 >> 358.....PIEDMONT set structure & checklist

Posts #360 >> 366.....T206 TRIVIA QUIZ....1st correct answer wins T206

Post #368.....Reminiscing about T206's in 2005

Post #378.....Remembering Jantz Morey

Posts #379 >> 385.....T206 TRIVIA QUIZ....1st correct answer wins T206

Posts #386 >> 402.....T206 printed sheet structure

Posts #405 >> 440.....Show us your BROAD LEAF 350 cards

Posts #441 >> 450.....Comparable printing patterns in T205's

Posts #453 >> 467.....Guess the price of a near complete T206 set

Posts #469 >> 470.....Guess the selling price of a COMPLETE SOVEREIGN set

Posts #471 >> 474.....Guess selling price of a near complete PIEDMONT set

Posts #476 >> 479.....Guess selling price of a complete SWEET CAP, F#30 set

Posts #481 >> 515.....Show-n-Tell us of your T206 "finds"

Posts #516 >> 536....."Bang the DRUM Slowly" while showing us your DRUM cards

Posts #537 >> 551.....Guess how many Demmitt & O'Hara St Louis cards exist ?

Posts #553 >> 554.....FYI: T206 rosters of the 16 Major League teams

Posts #561 >> 570.....FYI: T206 rosters of the 16 Major League teams

Posts #571 >> 572.....FYI: 350 Series Minor Leaguer's checklist and trivia

Posts #573 >> 573.....T206 Southern League cards illustrated

Posts #574 >> 579.....T206 "Monster" obsession ? ....Check-out this one !

Post #580.....Do the T215-1 cards belong in the T206 set ?

Posts #581 >> 590.....Do the T215-1 cards belong in the T206 set ?

Posts #591 >> 597.....Do the T215-1 cards belong in the T206 set ?

Posts #598 >> 600.....Any guesses why no CHESTERFIELD or LUCKY STRIKE T-cards ?

Posts #601 >> 603.....Any guesses why no CHESTERFIELD or LUCKY STRIKE T-cards ?

Posts #605 >> 610.....the TOLSTOI story

Posts #611 >> 620.....the TOLSTOI story

Posts #621 >> 621.....the TOLSTOI story


In this thread, I've tried to present some very complex aspects of the Series structure of the T206 set in a style which is understandable to most of the T206 collectors.
However, if not clear, don't be shy about asking questions. Post your questions on this thread. Or, email me directly with your question(s).... tedzan11@comcast.net
In either event, I will gladly do my best to provide you clear and meaningful answer(s).


TED Z
.

T206 REFERENCE....Reflections......the TOLSTOI story....and show us your cards
 

* * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * *


http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...fdBaker12x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...raphicbldg.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...edHINDUx12.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...gsSGC60x12.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...eign350x13.jpg

When American Lithographic started printing the 350 Series T206's, they introduced these T-brands....AMERICAN BEAUTY, BROAD LEAF, CAROLINA BRIGHTS, CYCLE, DRUM,
EPDG, OLD MILL, POLAR BEAR, and TOLSTOI .

TOLSTOI print runs started circa 1910. Continued to the end of the T206 press runs (Spring 1911). To date, 255 subjects have been confirmed. TOLSTOI cards are not tough.
However, certain 350-only subjects printed early in 1910 must have been short-printed, as they are very tough to find.

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...ackTOLSTOI.jpg

TOLSTOI checklist (255 subjects) confirmed. They are listed here according to their respective T206 series.

350-only Series...................146 subjects

Abstein
Anderson
Arellanes
Atz
Barbeau
Barger
Barry (A's)
Bender (trees)
Bescher (portrait)
Blackburne
Bliss
Brain
Brashear
Bresnahan (bat)
Burchell
Burns
Bush
Byrne
Campbell
Carrigan

Casey
Chappelle
Charles
Clark
Clymer
Collins (Milwaukee)
Collins (A's)
Cree
Cross
Davidson
Delehanty (Louisville)
Demmitt (New York American)
Dineen
Doolan (fielding)
Dorner
Downey (fielding)
Downs
Joe Doyle (NY)
Dubuc
Jack Dunn

Joe Dunn
Dygert
Easterly
Engle
Evans
Ferguson
Fiene (throwing)
Fletcher
Ganzel
Gasper
Graham (St Louis)
Gray
Grimshaw
Groom
Hartsell
Hayden
Hinchman (Toledo)
Hoblitzell
Hoffman (Providence)
Hoffman (St Louis AL)

Hofman
Howard (Chicago NL)
Howell (portrait)
Huggins (portrait)
Huggins (hands at mouth)
Hunter
Jones (Detroit)
Kelley
Killian (portrait)
Kisinger
Kleinow (New York-catching)
Knight (portrait)
Knight (bat)
Krause (portrait)
Krause (pitching)
Kroh
LaPorte
Lattimore
Lavender
Lennox

Livingstone
Lord
Maddox
Maloney
Marquard (portrait)
Mattern
McAleese
McBride
McCormick
McElveen
McGinnity
McIntyre (Detroit)
McLean
Merritt
Milan
Miller (Pittsburg)
Mitchell (Cincinnati)
Mitchell (Toronto)
Moeller
Moran (Chicago NL)

Mowrey
Murray (bat)
Myers (batting)
Myers (fielding)
Nattress
Nichols (bat)
Oakes
O'Brien
O'Neill
Paskert
Perring
Pfeister (seated)
Phillippe
Purtell
Puttman
Quillen
Quinn
Randall
Rhoades (arm extended)
Rhoades (hands at chest)

Rhodes
Ritter
Rossman
Rudolph
Schmidt (portrait)
Schreck
Scott
Shannon
Sharpe
Slagle
Smith (Chicago, white cap)
Smith (Buffalo)
Snodgrass (bat)
Speaker
Starr
Stanage
Stephens
Strang
Summers
Taylor

Thomas
Unglaub
Warhop
Willett
Wilson
Zimmerman


350/460 series...................57 subjects

Ames (hands over head)
Baker
Bender (no trees)
Berger
Bradley (bat)
M. Brown (Chicago)
Burch (fielding)
Cobb (bat off shoulder)
Conroy (bat)
Crawford (bat)
Harry Davis (A's)
Donlin (bat)
Doolan (bat)
Dougherty (arm in air)
Downey (bat)
Larry Doyle (bat)
Elberfeld (Washington-fielding)
Griffith (bat)
Jennings (one hand)
Jennings (two hands)

Johnson (pitching)
Jordan (bat)
Joss (pitching)
Kleinow (Boston)
Konetchy (glove low)
Lajoie (bat)
Lake, St. Louis (no ball)
Leach (cap)
Leifeld (bat)
Magee (bat)
Manning (pitching)
McIntyre (Brooklyn & Chicago)
McQuillan (bat)
Mullin (bat)
Murphy (bat)
O'Leary (hands on knees)
Overall (yellow sky)
Pelty (vertical)
Pfeister (throwing)
Reulbach (no glove)

Rucker (throwing)
Seymour (throwing)
F. Smith (Chicago & Boston)
Snodgrass (catching)
Stahl (glove)
Steinfeldt (bat)
Street (catching)
Sweeney (fielding)
Tinker (bat off shoulder)
Wagner (bat on right)
Doc White (Chicago-pitching)
Wilhelm (bat)
Willetts
Willis (throwing)
Willis (bat)
Wiltse (pitching)
CYoung (glove)


460-only Series......…..........46 subjects

Abbaticchio (blue sleeves)
Ball (Cleveland)
Bell (follow thru)
Bergen (catching)
Bescher (hands over head)
Bridwell (portrait-cap)
Camnitz (hands over head)
Camnitz (arm at side)
Chance (bat)
Chase (trophy)
Crandall (portrait-cap)
Devore
Duffy
Larry Doyle (portrait)
Ford
Frill
Gandil
Geyer
Herzog (Boston)
Howell (hand at waist}

Hummel
Lake, St. Louis (ball)
Latham
Marquard (pitching)
McGraw (portrait-cap)
McGraw (glove at hip)
Merkle (throwing)
Meyers (portrait)
Murray (portrait)
Needham
Oldring (batting)
Overall (blue sky)
Payne
Pfeffer
Schaefer (Washington)
Schlei (portrait)
Schlei (bat)
Schulte (back view)
Seymour (portrait)
Sheckard (glove)

H. Smith (Brooklyn)
Stovall (bat)
Tannehill (Chicago)
Tinker (bat on shoulder)
Wheat
Wiltse (portrait-cap)


Six Super-Prints

Chance (yellow portrait)
Chase (blue portrait)
Chase (dark cap)
Cobb (red portrait)
Evers (Chicago-yellow sky)
Mathewson (dark cap)



This is a work in progress, more stuff will be forthcoming.


TED Z
.

T206 REFERENCE....Reflections......the TOLSTOI story....and show us your cards
 

ATC Factory #30 (in NYC) was a major producer of various cigarette brands. Besides SWEET CAPORAL, some of these tobacco brands were
CAIRO MONOPOL, LENOX, and TOLSTOI. Also early 1911, a new T-brand named UZIT.
By the Spring of 1911, American Lithographic (ALC) had printed the last of their T206's (350/460 and 460-only series cards). ALC embarked
on producing their Gold-Bordered cards.....T205 BB, and various and sundry Non-Sports sets (T42, T43, T56, T57, T69, T80, T99, etc.).

Furthermore,
Imagine opening a LENOX or UZIT (or perhaps a TOLSTOI) cigarette pack in the Spring of 1911 and finding a T206 card and a T80 card in it. **

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...CMblankBx2.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...oCMblankBk.jpg



In my wild imagination, I expect that some day we will find a Cobb (or two) with a T80 back on it. Hey, this may seem improbable; however, consider that the printer
installed the T80 LENOX printing plates in the press instead of the T206 LENOX plates. After all, these cards were printed concurrently. Anyway Cobb has been quoted
as saying...…. " Baseball is like War ! "
So guys, check-out these unique Cobb cards :) .........……..http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...Cobb460x50.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...0xLENOXx50.jpg


……………………………………...….…...http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...Cobb460x50.jpg . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...TOLSTOIx50.jpg


http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...OLDMILLx75.jpg.http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...xUZITx50bk.jpg ………….and, here he is wielding his weapon of "war" :)



** Note….ALC ledger sheet (dated Feb 1911) exists which instructs ATC employees at Factory #30 to insert both a T206 card and a T80 card in a LENOX (or UZIT) cigarette pack.


TED Z
.

So far I only own 2 Tolstoi cards:

Ted, as far as I know these Tolstoi's on your list are unconfirmed

Bliss
Casey
Knight (portrait
Knight (bat)
Merritt
O'neil
Pfeister (seated)

the following missing from your list are confirmed

Beckley
Donovan (throwing)
Knabe
Street (portrait)
Sweeney, Bill

I also think Bender (with trees) might be an error on the confirmed lists
but I'm not sure. There is only one in the PSA pop reports and none
in the SGC reports. I've never seen one and I think it might be a label or data entry
error on a no trees PSA example.

Love me some Tolstois!

Nice Luke! those are some tough Tolstoi's.

Here's a few more that don't show up often.

Attachment 342333Attachment 342334

Attachment 342335Attachment 342336

Attachment 342337Attachment 342338

Attachment 342339Attachment 342340

T206 REFERENCE....Reflections......the TOLSTOI story....and show us your cards
 

Hi Pat

1st....the ones you pointed out which I omitted.....
If you check-out my recent thread (shown below), you will see that I did list 3 of the subjects as confirmed TOLSTOI cards.
I was combining data from several TOLSTOI lists in my records, and I inadvertently left out part of one. My bad !

Excerpt from my "Interesting NO-PRINT group of T206 Carolina Brights - EPDG - Old Mill - Polar Bear" thread...…..


2nd....regarding:

Bliss
Casey
Knight (portrait
Knight (bat)
Merritt
O'Neil
Pfeister (seated)

I will double-check the data on my lists of TOLSTOI cards to see why I included any, or all 7 of these as "confirmed" TOLSTOI cards.


3rd....Regarding the Bender (trees) with TOLSTOI, I vaguely recall having seen one many years ago. I checked the pop reports (and
like you said) I noticed PSA lists one graded. So I figured my recollection was valid.

Thanks for your inputs.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

Ted, I saw that most of these were on your other lists so I knew you just
forgot to put them on this list I was just pointing them out so you could
update this list.

I'm still a little skeptical about the Bender. There are a few single known
example Tolstoi's but Bender is the only HOF and we have seen other
errant confirmations due to a pop error. if you look at the other
350 only HOF pop numbers it seems odd that there isn't a recorded
sale or scan.

Combined pop #'s of the other HOF 350 only Tolstoi's

Beckley - 17
Bresnahan - 12
Collins, Eddie - 6
Collins, Jimmy - 12
Huggins (hands at mouth) - 12
Huggins (portrait) - 6
Kelley - 3
Marquard (Port) - 4 *SGC has 9 in their pop report that doesn't specify pitching or portrait.
McGinnity - 6
Speaker - 11

Ted Merritt is the only one I see on your previous Tolstoi checklists so the
rest must be fairly recent.

Here's another low pop Tolstoi.

Attachment 342395 Attachment 342396

T206 REFERENCE....Reflections......the TOLSTOI story....and show us your cards
 

* * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * *


http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...fdBaker12x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...raphicbldg.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...edHINDUx12.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...gsSGC60x12.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...eign350x13.jpg



Updated TOLSTOI list...…

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...olstoiback.jpg

TOLSTOI checklist (253 subjects) confirmed. They are listed here according to their respective T206 series.

350-only Series...................144 subjects

Abstein
Anderson
Arellanes
Atz
Barbeau
Barger
Barry (A's)
Beckley
Bender (trees)
Bescher (portrait)
Blackburne
Brain
Brashear
Bresnahan (bat)
Burchell
Burns
Bush
Byrne
Campbell
Carrigan

Chappelle
Charles
Clark
Clymer
Collins (Milwaukee)
Collins (A's)
Cree
Cross
Davidson
Delehanty (Louisville)
Demmitt (New York American)
Dineen
Doolan (fielding)
Donovan (throwing)
Dorner
Downey (fielding)
Downs
Joe Doyle (NY)
Dubuc
Jack Dunn

Joe Dunn
Dygert
Easterly
Engle
Evans
Ferguson
Fiene (throwing)
Fletcher
Ganzel
Gasper
Graham (St Louis)
Gray
Grimshaw
Groom
Hartsell
Hayden
Hinchman (Toledo)
Hoblitzell
Hoffman (Providence)
Hoffman (St Louis AL)

Hofman
Howard (Chicago NL)
Howell (portrait)
Huggins (portrait)
Huggins (hands at mouth)
Hunter
Jones (Detroit)
Kelley
Killian (portrait)
Kisinger
Kleinow (New York-catching)
Knabe
Krause (portrait)
Krause (pitching)
Kroh
LaPorte
Lattimore
Lavender
Lennox
Livingstone

Lord
Maddox
Maloney
Marquard (portrait)
Mattern
McAleese
McBride
McCormick
McElveen
McGinnity
McIntyre (Detroit)
McLean
Milan
Miller (Pittsburg)
Mitchell (Cincinnati)
Mitchell (Toronto)
Moeller
Moran (Chicago NL)
Mowrey
Murray (bat)

Myers (batting)
Myers (fielding)
Nattress
Nichols (bat)
Oakes
O'Brien
Paskert
Perring
Phillippe
Purtell
Puttman
Quillen
Quinn
Randall
Rhoades (arm extended)
Rhoades (hands at chest)
Rhodes
Ritter
Rossman
Rudolph

Schmidt (portrait)
Schreck
Scott
Shannon
Sharpe
Slagle
Smith (Chicago, white cap)
Smith (Buffalo)
Snodgrass (bat)
Speaker
Starr
Stanage
Stephens
Strang
Street (portrait)
Summers
Sweeney (Boston NL)
Taylor
Thomas
Unglaub

Warhop
Willett
Wilson
Zimmerman


350/460 series...................57 subjects

Ames (hands over head)
Baker
Bender (no trees)
Berger
Bradley (bat)
M. Brown (Chicago)
Burch (fielding)
Cobb (bat off shoulder)
Conroy (bat)
Crawford (bat)
Harry Davis (A's)
Donlin (bat)
Doolan (bat)
Dougherty (arm in air)
Downey (bat)
Larry Doyle (bat)
Elberfeld (Washington-fielding)
Griffith (bat)
Jennings (one hand)
Jennings (two hands)

Johnson (pitching)
Jordan (bat)
Joss (pitching)
Kleinow (Boston)
Konetchy (glove low)
Lajoie (bat)
Lake, St. Louis (no ball)
Leach (cap)
Leifeld (bat)
Magee (bat)
Manning (pitching)
McIntyre (Brooklyn & Chicago)
McQuillan (bat)
Mullin (bat)
Murphy (bat)
O'Leary (hands on knees)
Overall (yellow sky)
Pelty (vertical)
Pfeister (throwing)
Reulbach (no glove)

Rucker (throwing)
Seymour (throwing)
F. Smith (Chicago & Boston)
Snodgrass (catching)
Stahl (glove)
Steinfeldt (bat)
Street (catching)
Sweeney (fielding)
Tinker (bat off shoulder)
Wagner (bat on right)
Doc White (Chicago-pitching)
Wilhelm (bat)
Willetts
Willis (throwing)
Willis (bat)
Wiltse (pitching)
CYoung (glove)


460-only Series......…..........46 subjects

Abbaticchio (blue sleeves)
Ball (Cleveland)
Bell (follow thru)
Bergen (catching)
Bescher (hands over head)
Bridwell (portrait-cap)
Camnitz (hands over head)
Camnitz (arm at side)
Chance (bat)
Chase (trophy)
Crandall (portrait-cap)
Devore
Duffy
Larry Doyle (portrait)
Ford
Frill
Gandil
Geyer
Herzog (Boston)
Howell (hand at waist}

Hummel
Lake, St. Louis (ball)
Latham
Marquard (pitching)
McGraw (portrait-cap)
McGraw (glove at hip)
Merkle (throwing)
Meyers (portrait)
Murray (portrait)
Needham
Oldring (batting)
Overall (blue sky)
Payne
Pfeffer
Schaefer (Washington)
Schlei (portrait)
Schlei (bat)
Schulte (back view)
Seymour (portrait)
Sheckard (glove)

H. Smith (Brooklyn)
Stovall (bat)
Tannehill (Chicago)
Tinker (bat on shoulder)
Wheat
Wiltse (portrait-cap)


Six Super-Prints

Chance (yellow portrait)
Chase (blue portrait)
Chase (dark cap)
Cobb (red portrait)
Evers (Chicago-yellow sky)
Mathewson (dark cap)


This is a work in progress.....if you have a TOLSTOI card that is not listed here, please chime in.....Thanks.


TED Z
.

Here are a couple of my low population cards.
http://www.unclenacki.com/net54/tolstoifront.jpg
http://www.unclenacki.com/net54/tolstoiback.jpg

T206 REFERENCE....Reflections......the TOLSTOI story....and show us your cards
 

* * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * *

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...fdBaker12x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...raphicbldg.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...edHINDUx12.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...gsSGC60x12.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...eign350x13.jpg



My research indicates that initial TOLSTOI print runs (circa early 1910) appear to coincide with early 1910 press runs of the 350 series. And, what is evident (based on pop
report data) is that they many of these cards were short-printed relative to subsequent T206 series (350/460 series and 460-only series) TOLSTOI print runs.

For example......this simulated arrangement of the 48 subjects in the 1910 COUPON set were also printed with TOLSTOI backs. Approx. 67 % of these guys are quite tough
to find with TOLSTOI backs. Becker & Marshall have yet to be confirmed with a TOLSTOI back. But then, it is only recently that Joe Dunn, Claude Rossman, and Ira Thomas
have been found with TOLSTOI backs. So, I expect that Becker and Marshall will be eventually found with TOLSTOI backs.


1910 COUPON (T213-1) Major League (48) subjects

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...sSheet12xx.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...Sheet12xxx.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...sSheet12xx.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...eSheet12xx.jpg



Circa early 1910 TOLSTOI group

Becker *
Bender (trees)
Byrne
Campbell
Chance (yellow portrait) **
Charles
Chase (blue portrait) **
Chase (dark cap) **
Cobb (red portrait) **
Cree
Donovan (throwing)
Doolan (fielding)
Dubuc
Joe Dunn (Brooklyn)
Engle
Evers (Chicago-yellow sky) **
Fletcher
Hartsel
Hoffman (St Louis AL)
Howell (portrait)

Huggins (portrait)
Huggins (hands at mouth)
Hunter
Killian (portrait)
Knabe
LaPorte
Lennox
Marquard (portrait)
Marshall *
Mathewson (bark cap) **
McBride
McElveen
McIntyre (Detroit)
Mitchell (Cincinnati)
Mowrey
Myers (batting)
Myers (fielding)
Paskert
Rhoades (hands at chest)
Rossman

Schmidt (portrait)
Starr
Street (portrait)
Summers
Sweeney (Boston NL)
Thomas
Willett
Wilson


* denotes not yet confirmed with TOLSTOI back.

** denotes super-print which has a considerably higher TOLSTOI population, since these subjects were also included in the 350/460 series print runs.


TED Z
.

My research indicates that initial TOLSTOI print runs (circa early 1910) appear to coincide with early 1910 press runs of the 350 series. And, what is evident (based on pop
report data) is that they many of these cards were short-printed relative to subsequent T206 series (350/460 series and 460-only series) TOLSTOI print runs.

For example......this simulated arrangement of the 48 subjects in the 1910 COUPON set were also printed with TOLSTOI backs. Approx. 67 % of these guys are quite tough
to find with TOLSTOI backs. Becker & Marshall have yet to be confirmed with a TOLSTOI back. But then, it is only recently that Joe Dunn, Claude Rossman, and Ira Thomas have been found with TOLSTOI backs. So, I expect that Becker and Marshall will be eventually found with TOLSTOI backs.

TED Z
.[/QUOTE]




I confirmed these along with Fiene throwing on t206resource in the past 1+ years when I found scans of them while doing research on the scarcity of the 350 only subjects with Tolstoi backs all of them sold at different times.

The Dunn came up for sale on ebay in March 2018 Fiene sold on ebay in July 2015 Rossman in June 2015 and the Thomas sold on ebay in May 2011.

T206 REFERENCE....Reflections......the TOLSTOI story....and show us your cards
 

Pat

I figured it may be you that found these 4 subjects with TOLSTOI backs this past year. But, I wasn't certain. Great research, guy.


TED Z
.

wanted to chime in that i just came across this thread and your research about tolstois and yall are AWESOME. i started collecting tolstois only about 6-8 months ago (have around 35 or so graded so far) and have been looking for more and more info. great data and great work gentlemen!

Figured we needed a Tolstoi Matty posted. Always wondered why they made Tolstoi and Piedmont so similar in design.

http://www.net54baseball.com/picture...ictureid=18880http://www.net54baseball.com/picture...ictureid=18934

T206 REFERENCE....Reflections......the TOLSTOI story....and show us your cards
 

Good question, Dean.

The TOLSTOI brand was an early entry when the print runs of the 350 series subjects began.
My guess is the same artist that designed the PIEDMONT backs also did the TOLSTOI back.


http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...toiP350x75.jpg

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...oiP350x75b.jpg




TED Z

T206 Reference
.

T206 Reference / Reflections, Theory's, etc.....Meet me at Philly, we can Talk T206's
 

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 REFERENCE....Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...C150x30xxz.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...ohnson208x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...t150x12xxx.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...raphicbldg.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...yab350x19x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...CobbSGCx12.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...ITxSGC30xx.jpg
.... Sweet Caporal .... Sovereign .......... Piedmont____The "House" that created these Tobacco cards__American Beauty ... Sovereign .......... UZIT


I'm celebrating my 40th year since I read Bill Heitman's T206 book titled "THE MONSTER".....that started me on this glorious adventure which has become an obsession.

But, "obsessions" can be a good thing. Especially, when I think of all the great friends I have met all these years in this great hobby Talkin' T206's (and, N162's, T205's,
E90's, 1910 COUPON's, GOUDEY's, DIAMOND STARS, PLAY BALL's, LEAF's, BOWMAN's, TOPPS).

I would like to express my sincerest appreciation to all of you on this forum. And to all of the collectors and dealers (many of whom have become life-long friends) which
I have met since my first Willow Grove Show in March 1981.

This forthcoming weekend marks my 100+ Philly Show in which I will be set-up at. Looking forward to seeing some of you (booth # 412).


TED Z
.

T206 Reference / Reflections, Theory's, etc.....Meet me at Philly, we can Talk T206's
 

A good number of Net54er's dropped over to visit with Dan and me this past weekend at the Philly Show. We had a great time talking BB and BB cards with them.
Made some nice deals (selling & trading). Many of them traveled a good distance (Boston, New York State, North Carolina, Virginia, etc.) despite the snow & rain.


TED Z
.

T206 REFERENCE / Reflections, etc.....CYCLE 460 checklist.....and show us your cards.
 

* * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * *


http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...fdBaker12x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...bbBat12xzz.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...raphicbldg.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...eign460x12.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...DGsgc60x11.jpg



The CYCLE 460 cards depict players in the 350/460 series and the 460-only series, which comprise a total of 109 subjects. These cards were issued circa Fall/Winter 1910.
The CYCLE 460 cards were not equally printed. There are some considerably more difficult to find than others. I'll post a breakdown of the tougher ones vs the easier ones in
a forthcoming post. I have to do some searching for all my data on the relative scarcity of these T206's with CYCLE 460 backs.

If I recall correctly, Lee Behrens has completed this 109 card sub-set. I'm curious if anyone else on this forum has completed (or near to completing) the CYCLE 460 sub-set ?

In any event, let's have a show-n-tell of your CYCLE 460 cards. CYCLE 460 cards do not get the recognition that most tougher T206 backs do; nonetheless, they can be scarce.


http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...e460cyoung.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...e460cyoung.jpg

350/460 Series....................63 subjects

Ames (hands over head)
Baker
Bender (no trees)
Berger
Bradley (bat)
M. Brown (Chicago)
Burch (fielding)
Chance (yellow portrait)
Chase (blue portrait)
Chase (dark cap)
Cobb (red portrait)
Cobb (bat off)
Conroy (bat)
Crawford (bat)
Davis (A's)
Donlin (bat)
Doolan (batting)
Dougherty (arm in air)
Downey (batting)
L. Doyle (bat)

Elberfeld (Washington-fielding)
Evers (bat-yellow sky)
Griffith (bat)
Jennings (one hand)
Jennings (two hands)
Johnson (hands at chest)
Jordan (batting)
Joss (pitching)
Kleinow (Boston)
Konetchy (glove low)
Lajoie (bat)
Lake (no ball)
Leach (cap)
Leifield (bat)
Magee (bat)
Manning (pitching)
Mathewson (dark cap)
McIntyre (Brooklyn & Chicago)
McQuillan (bat)
Mullin (bat)

Murphy (bat)
O'Leary (hands on knees)
Overall (yellow sky)
Pelty (vertical)
Pfeister (throwing)
Reulbach (no glove)
Rucker (throwing)
Seymour (throwing)
F. Smith (Chicago & Boston)
Snodgrass (catching)
Stahl (glove)
Steinfeldt (bat)
Street (catching)
Sweeney (fielding)
Tinker (bat off shoulder)
Wagner (bat on right)
Doc White (pitching)
Wilhelm (bat)
Willetts
Willis (bat)

Willis (throwing)
Wiltse (pitching)
CYoung (glove)



http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...YCLE460x18.jpg . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...CLE460x19b.jpg





460-only Series....................46 confirmed cards

Abbaticcio (blue sleeve)
Ball (Cleveland)
Bell (follow thru)
Bergen (catching)
Bescher (arms over head)
Bridwell (portrait-cap)
Camnitz (arms up)
Camnitz (arms over head)
Chance (batting)
Chase (trophy)
Crandall (cap)
Devore
Doyle (portrait)
Duffy
Ford
Frill
Gandil
Geyer
Herzog (Boston)
Howell (hands at waist)

Hummel
Lake (ball-St Louis)
Latham
Marquard (follow thru)
McGraw (portrait-cap)
McGraw (glove at hip)
Merkle (throwing)
Meyers (portrait)
Murray (portrait)
Needham
Oldring (batting)
Overall (blue sky)
Payne
Pfeffer
Schaefer (Washington)
Schlei (portrait)
Schlei (batting)
Schulte (back view)
Seymour (portrait)
Sheckard (glove)

Smith (Brooklyn)
Stovall (bat)
Tannehill (Chicago)
Tinker (bat on shoulder)
Wheat
Wiltse (portrait-cap)


TED Z
.

T206 REFERENCE / Reflections, etc.....CYCLE 460 checklist.....and show us your cards.
 

* * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * *

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...fdBaker12x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...bbBat12xzz.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...raphicbldg.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...eign460x12.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...DGsgc60x11.jpg


As noted in my last post, certain T206's with CYCLE 460 backs are much tougher to find than others. In my opinion, CYCLE 460 cards should be ranked scarcer than they are.

For example....Russ Ford is a subject in the Exclusive 12 ** group. This group of T206's are easier to find with red HINDU backs than with the CYCLE 460 backs. I have been
doing a run on each of these 12 guys. Trust me, their CYCLE 460 cards are very tough. The UZIT cards of the Exclusive 12 subjects are almost impossible to find. The CYCLE
460 cards are not that scarce; however, they are a very real challenge.
My McGraw CYCLE 460 (see post #624) is a fairly nice-looking card. This Russ Ford is a rough one, but I am happy to get these CYCLE's any way I can find them.

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...60RussFord.jpg . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...RussFordBk.jpg



** See Post #35 in this thread for more info regarding the Exclusive 12 group.


TED Z
.

Ted,

Love this post about one of my favorite backs. I agree that it's undervalued and underappreciated. Here are my 3 favorite Cycle 460s!

The Cycle 460 is very underrated difficult; like this Lajoie, which is downright impossible.

I too agree that they should be higher on the difficult scale. I haven't been following the Group of 12 cards in a few years but at one point, it was a focus of my T206 collecting for a few months. I managed to find Crandall, Duffy, and Sheckard out of the 12. I admit, I haven't focused my collecting on Cycle 460's at all but have 25 different in my collection. Here is my lowest combined (PSA + SGC) population card of 2 total.

http://www.unclenacki.com/net54/howellfront.jpghttp://www.unclenacki.com/net54/howellback.jpg

T206 REFERENCE / Reflections, etc.....CYCLE 460 checklist.....and show us your cards.
 

* * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * *


http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...fdBaker12x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...bbBat12xzz.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...raphicbldg.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...eign460x12.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...DGsgc60x11.jpg


Nice CYCLE 460 cards.....Jay, Ryan, and Ron.....thanks for posting them.

Here's my favorite CYCLE 460 from my Donlin back run.


http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...le460x25bx.jpg . . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...ycle460x25.jpg




TED Z
.

Ted, that back is about as clear and centered as you see'em

Ted,

I am currently at 99 with 10 left to finish off the subset. Slow progress at this point but seem to knock one off here and there. The set definitely has some toughies.

Lee Behrens
320-219-1372

T206 REFERENCE / Reflections, etc.....CYCLE 460 checklist.....and show us your cards
 

Lee

I know how that goes, I started my AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 run about the same time you started your CYCLE 460 run. And, I still need a couple of guys to complete this 74-card run.
Good luck in finding those last 10 cards.


TED Z
.

T206 REFERENCE / Reflections, etc.....CYCLE 460 checklist.....and show us your cards
 

* * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * *


http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...fdBaker12x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...bbBat12xzz.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...raphicbldg.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...eign460x12.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...DGsgc60x11.jpg


Also, I am trying to do a CYCLE 460 run with the six Super-Prints. I have (or had) a Matty with a CYCLE 460 back, but I cannot find this card.
I've seen a couple of Cobb's with the CYCLE 460 back. But so far their cost way "out-of-sight". I'm a patient dude, I'll wait for the right Cobb.
Furthermore, the two Hal Chase cards are impossible to find. If anyone here has a blue Chase with a CYCLE 460 back to offer....I am a buyer.

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...CYCLE460_1.jpg . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...LE460x25_1.jpg


http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...tCYCLE460b.jpg http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...rtCYCLE460.jpg


TED Z
.

I've been searching for the Chase cards also. They don't ever seem to show up. Maybe I'm always looking in the wrong place. I only have the Johnny Evers, which seems to be the most common for showing up. I remember very early on, I thought there was an American Beauty 460 Chase Blue Portrait along with the other 5 Super Prints but then the checklists proved I was wrong.

T206 REFERENCE / Reflections, etc.....CYCLE 460 checklist.....and show us your cards
 

Hi Ron
Back in 2006, when I started my AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 (AB 460) run, my research indicated that the 6 super-prints were definitely not printed with the AB 460 (nor the UZIT) backs.
This may seem strange, but I certainly welcomed that fact.

No need to go on a "wild goose" Chase (excuse the pun) :)


TED Z
.

T206 Reference, Reflections......The "MONSTER" Master Set achievement....check-it-out
 

* * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * *


http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...C150x30xxz.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...CobbSGCx12.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...yab350x19x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...raphicbldg.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...ohnson208x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...t150x12xxx.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...mont150x12.jpg


Theoretical thinking in years gone by, it was thought that there could be any where from 6000 to 10,000+ cards that would comprise a T206 "Master Set". However, in
the past 12 years we have gained a significant understanding of which T206 cards were printed and which were not. Resulting in approx. 5300 front/back permutations
that we know were normally issued **.

Thanks to David Hall....who essentially has completed a T206 Master set, we now have a fairly accurate number of how many different T206's were issued in cigarette
packs during the Spring/Summer of 1909 to the Spring of 1911. Reviewing his list of T206's, his current total number of cards is 5238. There are about a dozen T206's
which have been confirmed which David still needs to complete this set.

Your inputs on this subject will be greatly appreciated.


** Note…..
There are approx. 100+ more T206's that were printed, but not issued in cigarette packs (i.e., brown LENOX, brown OLD MILL, and SWEET CAPORAL 460, Factory #30
cards of the 350/460 series subjects). These anomalies will be covered in the next post(s) here....so stay tuned.


TED Z
.

To get overly technical, Brown Old Mills were not distributed in packs, but Brown Lenox seem to have been.

T206 Reference, Reflections......The "MONSTER" Master Set achievement....check-it-out
 

Hi Sean

The brown LENOX cards may have been issued in LENOX cigarette packs, but I am not certain that this is true. And, I say this since a limited number of 350/460 series cards
have (so far) surfaced with the brown LENOX backs. Namely, the subjects I refer to as Group B. The brown LENOX cards which have been confirmed are from Group B (none
from Group A) of the 350/460 series subjects. Check-out this link..... The mysterious T206 brown LENOX cards
Furthermore, 6 brown LENOX cards have been confirmed from the 460-only series.

All of which suggests these brown LENOX cards may have been cut from an uncut sheet. I think more research is required to determine if these cards were in cigarette packs.


TED Z
.

Ted, is there a list of the cards that David already has or that he needs?

T206 Reference, Reflections......The "MONSTER" Master Set achievement....check-it-out
 

* * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * *


http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...C150x30xxz.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...CobbSGCx12.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...yab350x19x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...raphicbldg.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...ohnson208x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...t150x12xxx.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...mont150x12.jpg



Sean

David provided me a list of his entire Master set about a year ago. He probably has added some cards to his set since then.

Since you seem to be interested in brown LENOX cards, here is a list of the ones in his set (these cards are not included in
the total tally of his Master set in the above Post #636)......

350/460 series

Bender (no Trees)
Bradley (bat)
Burch (fielding)
Cobb (bat off shoulder)
Conroy (bat)
Crawford (bat)
Jordan (bat)
Lajoie (bat)
Lake (no ball)
Leach (cap)
Leifield (bat)
Manning (pitching)
McQuillan (bat)
Overall (yellow sky)
Pfeister (throwing)
F. Smith (Chicago & Boston)
Tinker (bat off shoulder)
Wagner (bat on right)
Willetts
Willis (bat)


460-only series

Chase (trophy)
Latham
Marquard (follow thru)
Merkle (throwing
Schlei (portrait)
Wiltse (portrait-cap)



TED Z
.

Ted, does David have a Merkle throwing in his set? I thought that my card was a one of one.

T206 Reference, Reflections......The "MONSTER" Master Set achievement....check-it-out
 

Sean

A brown LENOX is on his list. If I recall correctly, your brown LENOX is PSA graded, correct ?

Well, I checked out the PSA pop report data, and NO data is listed for any LENOX Merkle cards.
Much less a brown LENOX (or two). Very, very strange ! ?

SGC pop report indicates seven LENOX Merkle's (however, it does not differentiate whether they are black or brown).


TED Z
.

Ted, my Brown Lenox was graded in 2009, before PSA distinguished between black and brown. They also graded my Black one last year, so I don’t understand why they aren’t listed.

Sean, because your brown Lenox is not on PSA’s pop report, it’s definitely not a brown Lenox, and you don’t need two black Lenox, and I think you should give it to me:D

Side note - what is the plural of Lenox?

I believe that would be Lenoxen.

T206 Reference, Reflections......The "MONSTER" Master Set achievement....check-it-out
 

Sean

I don't understand it, either. Especially since SGC indicates that seven LENOX were graded by SGC.


TED Z
.

Doc, it's actually Lenoxii - where did you get your medical degree?!? By coincidence, it's also the generic drug that cures erectile dysfunction.

Actually, PSA has 9 Black Lenoxii Merkle cards in their pop reports.

Thanx for correcting me. I have that exact PSA pop data link; however, it shows "0's". You figure it, I cannot ?


TED Z
.

One of the PSA 1s is my Brown, it just shows up as a Lenox in the pop reports. And one of the SGC Lenox is the card that I crossed to PSA.

T206 Reference, Reflections......The "MONSTER" Master Set achievement....check-it-out
 

Sean

I understand that the earlier brown LENOX cards were not identified by PSA as brown.

I am visiting my Daughter and Grandson in Maine this week. And, when I return home I will try to contact David Hall and ask him if the brown LENOX card on his list is one which he has in his collection.



TED Z
.