Wasn't talking to you or about you. Just the general nature of this thread.

Please repost the proof you were referring to when we spoke.

And if you want proof of my last comment, just read post #368 (page 37) of this thread...

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=174608

Guys, seriously, why do we have to go through this every time Rick's name is brought up? The same people always question it and ask for proof and the same proof is always provided. The facts aren't going to change just because you ask over and over to see them.

So this forum should not discuss the obvious shill bidding going on in Probstein's auctions because you choose to sell your cards through him. Got it.

Proof of what, Sean? What do you want me to prove?

I have provided everything you've asked for. Want more proof? Just let me know what exactly it is you want me to prove.

If obliged you, pleas oblige me: Now having proof that Rick allows shilling on his auctions and does nothing about it, how can you continue to do business with him with a clear conscience? It's a legitimate question.

Money trump all?

Don't put words in my mouth. I am saying it can be done with more tact.

Okay, so give us an example of how pointing out the shill bidding can be done with "tact". Should we come to you and have our posts approved before posting?

He provides the labor and time that I just don't have. My conscience is clear because I don't shill my own auctions.

I have a very, very high tolerance level for just about everything but... I now see why Rick doesn't bother responding to you dicks. Because you are just that, dicks.

I could use a few more choice words but I won't... Have a nice evening I'm done.

He doesn't respond to us dicks because we would eat him alive. It's hard to respond when all the evidence is right there in his face.

Edited to add: Rick allows shilling in his auctions and does absolutely nothing about it and we're the dicks? Ummm, yeah. Ok.

Stay Classy, Sean. I'm quoting this so your comments will remain on the forum forever.

.

Last I spoke to Rick it seemed like he was doing a fair amount to clean up the hobby. It seems like Panky is providing a considerable amount of revenue for Rick, I can't blame him for not dropping him as a consignor.

Can you elaborate on that? What EXACTLY is it that he's doing to clean up the hobby.

Your statment makes no sense. You say he's cleaning up the hobby, yet you don't blame him for not dropping Panky as a consignor. Well, if he is indeed trying to clean up the hobby, wouldn't dropping Panky as a consignor help to clean up the hobby (even if only a tiny fraction)?

:confused:

Useless piece of sh!t? What do you want me to say here, Sean?

Anybody in Rick's position that has been made aware of fraud going on within his auctions by the same consignor twice (each about a year apart) and does absolutely nothing about it is a piece of sh!t in my book. How would you characterize someone that allows that?

Sean,

Can you see the actual ebay id's that bid so many times in this auction, and if so, can you (or Rick) out it?

Maybe you are misinterpreting others.
-You acknowledge shilling but will not comment on it.:eek:
-You say you have not shilled your auctions. GOOD FOR YOU KEEP IT UP.
-The berating of Rick IS called for until he changes his ways.
-The SUPER MAJORITY of Ricks auctions are fine. Great what about the others?
-You unfortunately got grouped into the shiller group because of who YOU do business with.

I personally do not bid on anything he lists because of a very deceptive auction I wanted to bid on about 2 yrs ago. He listed a large lot of cards(approx. 100) with the cheap cards all fanned out in the picture. Cheap cards with about $1 each value so no big deal that I could not see them. Then he pictured 3(4) very rare error cards fanned out with some $5 each cards. He made it easy to see the error portion of 3 cards that I was willing to pay $300 each for. Then he hid the error portion on one card.
I messaged him to ask about the card that the error part was hidden behind another card. I got a very rude response back about how it was already packed for shipping and it was not worth his time to look at 1 card. I messaged him with in 1 hour of it being listed.
I understand a $300 card is nothing to some people but it IS a lot for a piece of cardboard for me especially when it could have been a $1 card he had hidden to make it look like it could be a rare error card.
Sorry for the long post I just wanted everyone to know shilling is not the only reason people dislike Rick.

I can't see the ID's.

It seems that Sean wants to defend Probstein and he is welcome to do that in my opinion. I would like to point out that it is not always shill bidding that is the issue. I pointed out a very glaring error/ intentionally incorrect listing with 5 days remaining in the auction and he did not change it. This despite the fact that he acknowledge the error. A, in my opinion, $1.00 Bill Russell baseball player signature slabbed by Please Suck Another / Don't Never Ask is listed as a Bill Russell Boston Celtics signature and sells for hundreds more than it is worth. The slabbers did nothing wrong as it was what appears to be a genuine Bill Russell signature. It was the ebay seller, who despite being informed of the error, made no attempt to correct the listing. You will notice in the thread I started that Sean limply attempts to defend him. The point is not that the item can be returned. The point is that it should not have happened in the first place.

http://net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=175031

What follows is not a defense for or of Rick. I would call it something I view as a flaw and a reason I am dissatisfied with some of the service I receive.

Rick is "too busy" for anything that isn't a multi thousand dollar piece. He would rather eat a return that will cause him to be out less money than if he spent the time not listing the higher end items he receives.

Dealing with a return is less hassle and time than fixing an auction title or description? This has not been my experience as a seller on ebay.

I don't sell nearly the volume I used to, but that's never been my experience either. I'm sure most sellers (high volume or not) would agree.

Besides, there is another side to this. What about the hassle of a return for the buyer?

This is the worst excuse a seller can use IMO. He chose to do what he does for a profession. If that means he spends extra time to do it the right way, then that's what he should do. If he doesn't want to be bothered with low end cards, then he shouldn't consign them.

A seller's first and foremost responsibility is customer service. Allowing fraudulent behavior, sending rude responses to potential buyers, ignoring glaring listing issues and giving buyers the runaround of having to deal with a return when the problem could've been fixed up front - none of those fall into the category of good customer service.

Der.ek Oue.llette

I also have no dog in this fight, just relaying my experiences. I've purchased from Probstein several times in the past (not lately and always signed magazines) and actually got them for way below what I was willing to spend. I never felt like there was any shilling going on, but then again, if the shilling is going on from a few people that are selling through him, then maybe It didn't affect my purchases. If I ever felt like anyone I was trying to purchase from was shilling, I wouldn't be purchasing from them in the future. Buy from him, don't buy from him. You gotta do what you feel is right.

+1

I can't imagine telling a client, "I don't have time to pay attention to your issue, I'm busy dealing with much more important clients."

Over the years I have seen a number of provably bad items (like Autopens) offered by this seller and he has been notified. They never get taken down.

His business model is quite simple to replicate. It's a low rent auction house that undercuts "real" auction houses probably because he pays entry level workers to list, photograph and deal with the shipping. No in-house experts, no software licensing, no benefits... Stuff that established houses have to pay.

So, basically you are getting what you bargained for when dealing with him. Maybe a cheaper price. Definitely cut rate service.

i don't agree w/ some of the other posters who state that sellers have to be impeccable when running their business. Each seller like Rick (or PWCC) needs to make their own decision on what is justifiable for their time spent on it. It may make complete sense not to spend time on auctions that are only a few dollars. However, i think the shilling issue is different. Even if there is the so-called "benign neglect" going on, where the large consignors don't actively police their own auctions for shilling, this hurts their reputation. So it should still be worth their reputation to police these auctions that may have miniscule benefit to their bottom line.

I think there's a big difference between being impeccable and treating each sale as important. To each his own, but in this day and age, dealers are a dime a dozen and I for one return to the ones who give me the impression that they appreciate my business. Buyers have too many options to have to deal with sellers who don't have time for them.

De.rek Oue.llette

He was told with 5 or 6 days left in the auction for the Bill Russell autograph he was selling that it was the baseball player's auto and not the Celtics Hall of Fame basketball player which is how he had it listed....he responded that he concurred that it indeed was the baseball player, but he never changed the auction. You think that's justifiable?

Now that is a total lack of ethical behavior.
But I guess money is the most important thing to some people, more important than their reputation.

Sean - Sorry, but you fall down on this. In court we call this hearsay. You claim not to be his friend or have any other connection to him other than as a consignor. Yet you seem to infer that you are well versed on his business practices and know that he is "too busy" to change a listing due to monetary concerns. Mouthpiece??????

I can remove a listing in about one minute, yes sixty seconds. It also takes that amount of time to change the category and adjust the title. From what I viewed of his set up at The National, where I was also a table holder, it was not a sole proprietorship but a multi-person operation. I am sure one of his minions/employees could be charged with making a correction in a listing and it would cost him only a few dollars in salary paid to that person. Just speculation on my part (disclosure), but if I was running an operation that was listing hundreds or thousands of items each week on ebay my time would be better spent on other facets of the business rather than tappety tapping on the computer keyboard listing items. I am a much smaller operation and do all of the work myself.

I actually respect the fact that you wish to defend him. Sometimes the best defense is silence. For yourself or others. I ask you, can you put a price on integrity and reputation? As I said in the other thread and one of my sign posts on the road to happiness:

"INTEGRITY IS WHAT YOU DO WHEN NO ONE IS LOOKING!!!"

Mîçhæ£ ßöw£ß¥

You are correct, it is nothing more than hearsay. But when he takes 4 months to actually list something and then doesn't even list it and ends up sending it back to me and it is several times the value of the auction in question - that is the determination I make.

Personally I feel that Rick Probstein and PWCC have the greatest anti-shilling defenses of any sports memorabilia auction house in the known universe. You can see who you're bidding against, how many bids this person has placed and how frequently he has retracted his bid! Do you honestly think no one shills REA auctions? or Heritage auctions? or any other auctions?

I dare you to find an auction house with better shilling safe guards than Rick and PWCC.

Rick gets singled out because the shill bidders are in plain site. Would you prefer an auction house that hides the shillers or one that lets you determine the auction's integrity before bidding?

Shill Bidding
 

I am little confused about all of this shill bidding. I have never bought from Rick but have seen many of his auctions. Seemed like some pretty strong prices but also looked like real nice stuff. If I understand everything from this thread, people consign items to him for various reasons and then (the consignors) bid on their own stuff to hopefully jack-up the prices. If that is the case, and the bidder wins his own item, isnt he legally bound to purchase his own item? Even if you get lucky and bump up the prices on 90% of the things and only occasionally buy back your item, this seems like an extremely reckless thing to do especially if it is big ticket item. Perhaps I am just naive but this just doesnt make much sense to me.

I agree with this 100 percent.

Wrong! Rick gets singled out because he's made aware of the shill bidding in his auctions, but does nothing about it.

How easy would it be for Rick to tell Panky that he can no longer do business with him - ban him as a bidder and as a consignor? Is it really that hard? Is that really asking too much for someone (Panky) that's been caught multiple times shilling his own auctions?

I guarantee you that if Rick would take some action when things like this are brought to his attention (and it has been brought to his attention multiple times), he would be looked upon much more favorably by most board members.

I highly doubt that. Rick isn't even the only auction house that conducts business with Panky, yet you single him out for some reason.

I cannot blame Rick for allowing Panky to consign (especially since other auction houses do the same). This guy will go anywhere else because every other auction house would gladly take him in. The only difference between Rick and the other auction houses is that Rick highlights in big bold letters that this is Panky's collection. Is there any other auction house that would do that?

David, if you had the urge to buy a card from Rick (it's a hypothetical) you would know right away if it was a Panky special or not (because it would be under "The GEM Collection") and you would avoid it. You would also be able to tell with 95% certainty whether or not you were being shilled by looking at the bid history.

Now, if you were to purchase the same card from Heritage, REA, Greg B, Mile High, Memory Lane or any other non-ebay auction house you would have no clue whether or not you were being shilled (because AH's choose to hide the bidding history from us); and you would have no clue if the card came from Panky!

Why are you not furious with all the others? It is unfair to single out the only AH that still provides us the tools we need to protect ourselves.

Huh? What are you talking about? You entire post makes no sense, especially the part I quoted. What tools does Rick provide to us (or anybody) that we need to protect ourselves?

Reread the posts above.

If you were to purchase an item from a Probstein123 auction you would have the following tools at your disposal:

- You would be able to see what collection the consignment came from, allowing you to avoid certain consignors (i.e. The GEM Collection).
- You can see how many unique bidders you are bidding against (a handy tool used to spot shill bidding).
- You can see how many bid retractions other bidders have (a handy tool to decide if you're up against shady characters)
- You can see how often someone is bidding and their bidding patterns (vital to spot shill bidding)

Name one auction house that provides these tools.

Are you saying the onus is on the buyer to root out shill bidding??
And if it is happening, the best way to handle it is to not bid?

Wow, I don't even know where to begin. Let me start by giving you a friendly suggestion. Stop typing. You sound ridiculous at this point. You really do.

Rick and PWCC don't have anything. This is provided to anyone that wants to list an item on the eBay site...and I'm surprised eBay still allows people to see the bid history as they have gone out of their way to protect shill bidders by blocking eBay usernames, but that's a whole different conversation. To hear you tell it though it's some kind of exclusive service only offered by Rick and PWCC. Not!

But, ok, I'll bite. I'll play along with it. So now that Rick and PWCC offer these wonderful tools to protect us bidders (Praises to Rick), what happens when it's discovered there is shilling taking place and it can be pinpointed to a certain consignor? Huh, what then? What good is it to have these wonderful tools that Rick has provided to us (Praises to Rick), if nothing is done about the shilling when it's pointed out?

As far as I know this just simply isn't true? Show me were you see the name of the consignor or the collection it belongs to. Here is one of Panky's listings, show me where it says it is his (The GEM Collection). Edited to add: You can search for a certain consignor (e.g. The GEM Collection), but if you are just browsing eBay auctions and open up one of Rick's listings at random, there is no way to know which consignor it belongs to (as far as I know).

http://www.ebay.com/itm/2003-Fleer-U...item53fd3386b4

Again, just friendly advice. Stop typing and save some face. Your comments are ridiculous.

Jason - I have no stake in this but it would seem to me that these protections that you refer to are provided by ebay, with the exception being able to see The Gem Collection.
I wonder if Mr Probstein would provide such protections if ebay did not.
I have been reading this thread with curiosity and interest but I don't know Mr Probstein nor have I ever bid in his auctions.
I would be curious to know if you think he would provide such protection and information if he was not using ebay and perhaps used simpleauctionsite.com

This post is pretty awesome. Rick should probably pay you to post here.

No, I am saying Rick Probstein provides more tools for the bidder to detect and defend themselves against shill bidding than any other auction house.

Panky aside, Rick has banned shill bidders and he is usually pretty good about it if it's obvious. When was the last time REA or HA or Mile High banned one of their bidders?

I'm thinking he already does. :D

I am still challenging anyone here to name one auction house that has more safe-guards in place to prevent shilling.

You can't completely prevent shill bidding...the auctioneer will never know 100% if an item is being shilled or not. What you can do when you are made aware of a shiller is ban them from your auctions. One very obvious shiller seems to be immune from banishment.

jhs - one more time, what do you think Mr Probstein would do if ebay did not provide all the protections you have mentioned, would he go through the time and trouble to list all those things himself if he ran his auctions on an independent platform?

Of course he wouldn't...the fact that his chosen platform shows bidder activity is a thorn in his side.

Could you please specify which of these tools Mr. Probstein provides? Because these are all eBay's tools, from what I can see.

Also, can you please give any examples of times Mr. Probstein has ended items with apparently blatant shill bidding or any other of the shenanigans that have been pointed out?

How do you know he's banned any shill bidders?

Question.. I never dealt with probstein but just realized an item I have been watching is a BIN from him. I know he consigns for others, but is his stuff usually legit? Comes with a COA from Hollywood Collectibles in FL. After reading the posts not sure I want to deal with him, but I like the item.