Apples and oranges
 

Wonka is correct as are the others showing concern for what this does to the future of the card. This is not the same as removing wax from the front of a card with a nylon stocking. Adding a chemical to the card does, if the chemical remains at all, change the card wether we can tell or not. removing the wax restores the card to the original state. I fail to see how we can defend this practice until the long term effects of this chemical exposure are known.

I believe that you only " washed your face ", to use you analogy. If you had a " face lift ", that would involve some form of reconstructive surgery. A card is only worth what someone will pay, and if I felt the card was worth what I paid then I am happy with my deal.

While I do not have a problem with what Dick does, I too wonder about long term effects. I know Dick has been doing stain removal for years, and would be curious about the card conditions of his earlier work. If any deterioration can be detected at all, I imagine my eyes would need some help from a scientist to tell me what is going on inside the card fabric.

I couldn't agree with you more Barry. It's amazing beyond rational comprehension and I'll only add that this phenomenon in the Pre-War context also applies to just about all grades - not just 8's or higher.

I know Dan. And I don't think collectors want to know what is really going on. They would much prefer to simply protect their investment, and sweep all the bad news under the carpet.

If it were any other kind of alteration, that would be a great idea. However, from what others have said, the stain removal process is undetectable. So, if I buy a card that I know had a stain removed from it, but I can't detect it (can't smell it, can't feel it, can't see it), then how do I learn from it?

It's not that some collectors don't want to know, it's what can you do if you (or anybody else) can't detect it?

Maybe it's just me, but I have way more important things to worry about in life than an undetectable stain removal process in a card.

I am curious as to why no one seems to be concerned with the existing / first "chemical" alteration ie: The Stain...?

What if my nine year old son dumps some type of Sodium hydroxide solution on one my baseball cards - I let it dry - send it off to be graded - put it up on Ebay to sell - is anyone concerned about long term effects of this chemical exposure? Should I give full disclosure as to how my son altered the card?

I understand David, and other people have better things to do also. And keeping the status quo is one of them. The hobby is humming along like a well oiled machine, people are making money, so why rock the boat?

Looking at the Gone With The Stain website, it appears that cards with stains or glue removed were later graded by SGC and PSA:

http://www.gonewiththestain.com/mickey-mantle.html

http://www.gonewiththestain.com/samp...-our-work.html

Shawn if you dump chocolate milk on your cards that’s a tough break you.

Otherwise not sure I follow your thinking? :confused:

I don’t recall the hobby having an issue with people doctoring cards to lower their value secretly before selling to folks.

Cheers,

John

I don't see a problem with cleaning.

It's very common with museums. The LOC has some excellent articles on specific conservation projects they've done.
http://www.loc.gov/preservation/conservators/

They go much farther than most collectors would. But that's not unusual. In some fields it's almost required. Many old posters are preserved by backing them with linen attached with a rice paste. They're simply too fragile otherwise. LOC also does deacidification to slow the degradation of stuff on acidic papers. (They even tried building a machine to do books in bulk since their collection will take so long to do some of it will be lost)

I'm not sure about alterations that go beyond cleaning and preservation when it comes to cards.
Many of the strip cards probably should get some treatment, deacidification for sure for the ones that aren't already brittle and coming apart.

Removing creases and trimming- isn't ok for cards, especially in a collecting context.
Rebuilding and repainting- I don't see it as appropriate, although in extreme cases it might be. The Wagner that was reconstructed the un done was a maybe. And large display pieces perhaps should be restored.

Disclosure is always an issue. Most museums etc now keep careful records of what was done and how. But that wasn't always true. I believe most very old paintings on display have been cleaned. There's been some debate whether it should be done for some. One side wants the painting shown as it was when new, the other prefers leaving it in a preserved state that keeps the original colors muted as we've come to expect to see them under 300+years of dirt/dust from the air.

A straightforward light cleaning will pass SGC and probably PSA.
Here's the before and after of the one I did. Water only, Q-tip and a soft cloth to dry with. probably close to 100 years of dust and soot. The fine cracks in the papers coating wouldn't come clean without more extensive efforts.

Before

http://www.net54baseball.com/picture...ictureid=12668

After

http://www.net54baseball.com/picture...pictureid=9887

Slab aside, which card would you rather own? Who would leave the card dirty, knowing that the dirt would probably cause further damage with time?

Steve Birmingham

Next gimmick!
 

After reading this I am sure that there are three shysters now forming a limited liability corporation. They will specialize in determining if a graded card has been altered, restored or cleaned. Company name will be ARC. They will charge a small fee at first, knowing the lemmings will follow.
Business plan is to hire their children or the kid next door at less than minimum wages to paste labels on the backs of graded cards. To save money and the work load on their sons and the kid next door, they will have only one label printed. All labels will say NOT ALTERED, RESTORED OR CLEANED. The lemmings will follow!
Eighteen months later at "THE NATIONAL" father and son stop at one booth. Son says to Daddy, "Daddy look, here is a PSA 9 Mickey Mantle rookie card!" Daddy grabs the card, turns it over and says, "Son we can't buy this. It has no ARC label."
After hearing this, the dealer immediately rushes over to the ARC booth. Less than 35 seconds later, with a smile on his face, the dealer places the card with the NOT ALTERED, RESTORED OR CLEANED label in the center of his show case.
Next customer says to the dealer, "Can I see that Mantle rookie card? Dealer hands it to him. Customer immediately turns it over, sees the NOT RESTORED, ALTERED OR CLEANED label and says, "I'll take it!"
Another new gimmick!!! ;) ;) ;)

That's what I've been saying. If they can remove a stain leaving no detectable evidence (nothing you can see, smell or feel), then how would the grading companies know? Why wouldn't they (or shouldn't they) grade numerically if no evidence is left behind from the process?

BTW this thread is so funny. I would love to hear the comments if the title of this thread said. :)

FBI uncovers evidence of card cleaning by major auction house to increase card values by using chemicals to enhance cards value before they went to auction. The result of which has cost collectors countless amounts of money for chemically treated cards and items.

I’m 100% sure the response would be well I couldn’t tell, how could I tell, TPG's couldn't tell so no big deal, lighten up FBI.

Furthermore let’s be honest this isn’t about flicking a piece of tobacco off with your fingernail or wiping a card with a q-tip. Dick isn’t using a wet towel to remove stains and tape residue from cards he’s using chemicals and solvents, and I'm not naïve enough to think that his clients all have noble intentions for enlisting his services.

Nothing is wrong with some mild conservation work as long as it’s disclosed and everyone here knows it will never be disclosed.

Cheers,

John

No use in crying over spilt milk. Sorry, had to.

I agree that more aggressive efforts should be disclosed.
And that many of them won't be.

My one attempt at removing scotch tape with solvents went poorly. Fortunately it was a F-G 59 common that I simply wanted to keep it from sticking to the card in front of it. someone had covered the entire front with tape. The tape hade peeled off, leaving a gummy mess of adhesive. The solvent was a bit too solventy (Yeah, not a real word ....Yet) And took only some adhesive along with "some" ink. Totally wrecked.

I guess my ambivalence comes from having a wide range of hobbies and having some restoration being either totally ok or accepted as routine in most of them.

Old bicycles - Original is King, but replacing tires and brake pads is fine for most and full restoration including rechroming and repainting is common. Some team stuff is not what the decals say, and "restorers" have probably wrecked a number of real race bikes fixing "fakes" - Not that there aren't fakes. For most bikes changing parts to suit the person using it is totally ok. It's altering, but can be fixed by changing back if the owner saved the original parts. (Some of my bikes have parts I had to make since they're not available anywhere - My work while it looks ok from a few feet away wouldn't be mistaken for original unless someone had no clue at all, and I've marked the pieces I did a better job of. )

Cars - I'm not active anymore, but restoration is obviously common. As is cobbling things together to make something into something it wasn't. Or if there's enough money involved making one good one out of a bunch of wrecks. ----same issues with disclosure.

Coins - Original is best, and cleaning is frowned on. But nearly all bright silver coins have been cleaned to some degree.

Stamps - Probably the closes to cards. Altering is very bad, repairs as well unless they're disclosed. most are so amateur they don't need much disclosure. A missing corner "repaired" by gluing a corner from a similar stamp onto the back is pretty obvious. But removing old hinges is ok, and especially valuable stuff that's fragile can be stabilized. Lots of fakes, and their version of TPG takes its time rather than rushing the most expensive stuff. (And gets it right nearly all the time)

Antiques - undisclosed repairs aren't ok. different stuff has different standards. most of the stuff is functional or for display, so while originality is massively important nobody looks down on a properly done restoration of something that was basically ruined somewhere along the line.
So the tall chest of drawers on Antiques roadshow that was refinished because the owner didn't like the original finish - not so good. For the one where you find it covered in "antique" paint and toleware decals from the early 1970's refinishing is ok.
A lot of furniture at lower level antique auctions and shops is repaired. Sometimes with old wood and old screws. It's pretty much accepted. Nobody gets too excited if the $500 sideboard has had the drawer that came apart reglued and the missing screw from one leg replaced.

Most older mechanical stuff like clocks and science equipment needs maintainance to prevent needing major repairs. Replacing something like a mainspring isn't a bad thing if it's needed.



I get that if someone is paying a LOT of money for originality then the item should be original.

But some damage that's easily undone probably should be.


Steve B

More likely, the FBI will say if collectors don't seem to care, why should we?

I'd like to see the TPGs one day be able to detect when chemicals have been used, just like PED testing has improved over the years....maybe then we will see how people feel when their pristine cards come back as "Altered".

It's your cardboard, I guess do what you want but we all know at some point most of our collections will end up back in the hobby....likely without a caveat.

Spring cleaning comes early to the Plank household...

Each collecting area has to make up its own mind about the extent or restoration they will permit. Just because it is allowed in paintings or movie posters doesn't mean it is acceptable everywhere else. In the antique furniture market uncleaned examples are more valuable than cleaned ones, similar in the coin world.

Also I highly doubt that the work he does is undetectable. It is imperceptible but not undetectable. Take some of the cards into any undergraduate analytical chemistry lab and you will be able to detect a difference between a card that has been through his process and one that hasn't.

It might take a little more work, but you could also tell the difference between a card that has been soaked and one that hasn't.

I get what you're saying John, but that's just not the case. We can't just play "what if's" and if we did, this site would be frustrating as hell. The standing point from the other side has been that this sort of cleaning is not leaving any evidence of altering or defects...so why are we calling it unethical? If cleaning a card alters it in any way, I would be against it...so I guess time may be the determining factor here for me. But to just say it's wrong without having something to fully back it up just seems like a weak rebuttal to the original statement.

That would suck, Chris...a lot of good buddies here on the board would be very bummed out if that happened as they collect very high end cards. Just not sure it's worth the crash of that part of our hobby to do so.

I've heard a few similar statements such as yours. However, your statement is based on your own personal feelings. It infers that the next owner of a "cleaned" card would care as much as you do. What if that next owner doesn't care that their card was "cleaned" by a previous owner? It's a fact, just from reading this thread, that some people don't care (as long as there is no detectable evidence).

Mike, I’m sorry if you can’t grasp that if someone cleans a stained and ugly card to a bright clean pack fresh finish with chemicals and solvents. Then passes on this card into the hobby without disclosure for a profit that this is unethical to some. We know this is the case how many auctions have you seen listed with the desc. line " the following work performed by Dick Towle" please bid accordingly? :)

If your bank stole $1.00 from you and others each year and nobody noticed that doesn’t make it ok. Seems pretty straight forward to me.

Cheers,

John

Johnny...I like you, but you're falling back a little. My bank stealing money from me? Dick Towle cleaning cards? I'm just not seeing it.

Everyone has their own opinions and I'm good with that, but it's YOUR OPINION AND NOT A FACT...that's what you are clearly missing here. It's ok to state it, but to act like that is set in stone and something to abide by is sadly wrong.

Love you bro :cool:

Every museum in the word cleans restores pieces of art. It amazes me that tobacco cards could or should be held to higher standards than those applied by art museums dealing with "one of a kind" treasures of art, many older than the cardboard discussed here.
If you found out your favorite card had been treated and cleaned would you obsess over it? sell it ,or love it less or just find something else to fret over?
FYI I never heard of this service before.
Paul C

Water is a chemical, and ANY alterations are detectable with the correct knowledge and equipment.

and pyrolysis

Agreed. For your 5 bucks you aren't hiring a crime lab when you submit a card to a TPG service.

I hate the idea of cards being cleaned to increase their value. It doesn't matter that they can't be detected NOW.

With works of art, they were created to be LOOKED at and admired. The value for them comes from being ABLE to see the beauty. If they are dirty or damaged then the beauty (and pleasure) of looking at them is diminished. Cleaning and/or restoring them brings them BACK (or close to) what they were before and THAT is something to be looked at and admired. Even when cleaning and restoring, the people doing the work try and make sure they don't do something that will cause problems in the future.

With automobiles, yes, they are being restored. Why? Because the original intent of the car was to be driven. For most people, the pleasure of owning that car was to be able to DRIVE it. If it is dirty, damaged and/or undrivable then the pleasure of the original intent is not there. So, people get their cars restored.

BUT, that restoration work is usually disclosed (or is glaringly obvious). In years past, those restored cars sold for much more than unrestored cars or cars that were cobbled together. However, in the last five to 10 years, things have somewhat changed and original cars are selling for as much or more than cars that have been restored. Why? People have gotten tired of cars that are over - restored (and the cost that is associated with doing it).

With baseball cards, what was the original intent? Usually it was for them to be used as enticements or advertising for products. After they were out in the public, they were played with, flipped, traded and collected (not necessarily in that order).

1914 Cracker Jack cards are, for example, EXPECTED to have candy stains on them. Some cigarette cards are expected to have tobacco stains on them. Some gum cards are expected to have gum stains on them. That is how they were packaged and that is how they originally came out. After that, the normal wear and tear of being handled and traveling about for years and years is to be expected.

People pay BIG money today for cards in GREAT condition because they are "supposed" to be abnormal. After being packaged with products, handled, flipped, traded and played with by kids, boxed, stored and moved, they are SUPPOSED to show that. Cards that DIDN'T get this treatment and stayed close to original get the BIG money paid for them.

So, imho, cards that are trimmed, rebacked, have color added, have corners rebuilt or are cleaned, are ALL altered and shouldn't receive the BIG dollar prices that they sometimes do and that is because they are NOT original and have NOT lasted the years in original condition.

As far as cleaning cards and them not being able to be detected. So, what? Not only should people with cleaned (and enhanced value) cards be worryng about what the chemicals are doing to them now or what they will do in the future but they should ALSO be worrying about technology.

No, there may not be technology that can detect the cleaning now (or, if there is it is so limited or so expensive that it cant or wont be used) that doesn't mean that technology wont be here in the future. So what happens then?

I imagine cards that have been micro - trimmed with lasers or that have been chemically cleaned will be worth less money and those people who are saying "no big deal" today will say something different when it comes time to sell those cards and they (or their heirs) receive less (probably much less) money than they were expecting.

David Smith

Mike like you too buddy. :)

Last attempt Dick is cleaning cards for folks using chemicals and solvents and if they are passing on those items for significant profit with no disclosure that is not on the up and up to me. Like I said if an auction house got busted doing this, or this was part of their operations I doubt folks would be so easy going.

This is not a farfetched guess that these cleaned cards go out into the world no disclosure. I have yet to see a disclaimer listed on any card for sale saying cleaned by Dick Towle. Or perhaps all of the items Dick cleans never go up for sale. :)

Just because you don’t know it happened, or can’t tell doesn’t make it all good in my book hence my bank analogy.

Cheers,

John

Paintings are one of a kind pieces and any restoration is documented and follows the painting around. Cards are not, for the most part, one of a kind, and restoration is not disclosed. That is the difference. Cards, for the most part, are restored with the intent to deceive future buyers(just my opinion).

I don't have an issue with people using Dick's services, but I do believe full disclosure should be made if and when the cards are ever sold and every time after. That disclosure just doesn't happen and it is problematic for the hobby.

The cards have already been altered when they get to Dick.... The cards have been manipulated by humans... Its not like Dick is the first one to get to the cards and screw around with them... Somebody else has already dumped something, spit on em, left them out in the rain, glued them etc...

Some T206s have been autographed / "altered" and now they bring more money... Is this acceptable?? It has INK written across the front & brings more money?

Side Note:

I should clarify... We have had this debate several times over the years - I've always thought it was intriguing. I like to play the devil on this one because it is just my nature. I try to keep everything in my life in an as found state :) Hell, it even bothers me to clean the dirt off arrowheads when I find them. My reasoning for leaving things alone has nothing to do with anything other than I am weird about it...

I remember some years back Leon had a Horner Composite "cleaned" and everyone whooped and hollered. The cleaning did make it more visible and I liked it, but I have to admit I did cringe a little.

The argument about chemicals on cards drives me nuts though :) There is already a chemical / stain on the card and who is to say what issues will arise from it?

The ethics of this has been covered well by you guys, but Chris' point above really concerns me - if the TPGs either can't detect chemical alteration today, or can only do so if alerted to it beforehand (not sure if this is true), but someday they COULD be able to detect it, then some collectors today could later find themselves screwed, especially if they are purchasing '52 Mantles, T206 Planks, etc., that show no evidence today of Dick's tampering.

The word "screwed" infers that it would lower the value of the card. Nobody knows if it would or not. Did Kendrick's T206 Wagner lose value now that we all know it's trimmed? Who knows?

I believe the technology to detect such chemicals/alterations is readily available at this time...just not cost effective...I mean we're talking baseball cards here!!!!

I agree that someday if this becomes available at low cost...there will be many pissed off collectors/investors!!!

My problem is with the disclosure, pretty rare to see a card advertised and "cleaned".

"Character is built when no one is looking"

Just b/c its undetectable does not make it ethical. When I buy my cards I expect them to be unrestored and unaltered, I believe that 99.9% of my cards follow these rules. It is impossible to know the provenance to all your cards, that still doesn't make it ok for someone to restore it and sell it w/o disclosure. I am very surprised how many are ok with this...

Correction. "I" didn't have my Horner Composite cleaned. It came that way. The guy before me had it done. Had it not then I probably would have sent it in. It was also de-acidified and preserved. It also had a tiny, tiny bit of in-painting done to it. I will disclose all of this when I go to sell it. I feel it enhanced the value because now it is more stable. The one thing I did do to it is I had it archival framed. They did a magnificent job on it. I am still on the fence about Dick's work but I am not on the fence with taking things off that aren't supposed to be there in the first place. Anything more than water and I am not so sure about. But water, I don't care the least bit.

I'm making the assumption that if chemical alteration could be detected, that the TPG's would not slab the card. So in my hypothetical situation, someone buys a chemically-altered PSA-slabbed '52 Mantle today, then it later gets cracked for SGC and turns out to be chemically-altered, and thus does not get a numeric grade. I think we could agree that the card's value would go down.

I'm not giving a raw '52 Mantle example, but that could end up even worse if the original buyer bought it as unaltered and the TPG later detected chemical alteration.

I'm sitting on the fence next to Leon, hoping it doesn't break.

Until
 

Someone can prove to me it does not increase the speed of degradation of the card I can not support the process. I see it akin to repairing or repainting a card as you are adding something. FYI some of the chemicals due leave trace tells according to Kevin Saucier when he and I discussed some of this stuff a few years back.

This is intriguing - would the FBI consider chemical treatment the same as they considered trimming? If neither was disclosed, both cards ended up slabbed, and the 'work' was done to enhance value without disclosure, other than the fact that the 'stuff removed wasn't actually 'card', it sure seems like the same thing.

Sorry about that Leon.. That was some time ago... I thought I remembered you asking about whether you should or shouldn't have it cleaned - but that was probably in regards to having it framed. My apologies.

I actually don't think cleaning a card is such a terrible thing, but I do believe a cleaned card should receive nothing more than an AUTH grade. Problem is, the graders can't detect the cleaning. That's not a good thing.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/351030629038

Nice lot --with pencil markings on back. The Pencil markings altered the cards- cleaning the cards would help restore them closer to the original state which would be more appealing to my eye anyway.
Paul C.

I love the way 1/6th of a set is considered a partial set...better than a near set I suppose!!!! Not likely heavy pencil can be removed and be undetectable!

very true!

If at The National, the SGC booth had a free, private scanner setup where you wave your raw or graded cards under and it would light up green for original, red for altered due to chemical cleaning.

Would you check your cards, would you be Ok if some of your best came back red that you thought were green, and would you then disclose this information when its time to sell?

There could already be something on your card (not visible to the eye) that was put there 100 years ago! No telling what kind of chemicals already exist on our cards without any intent of cleaning etc...