Net54baseball.com Forums - Getting the Record Straight Shoeless Joe Jackson Military service

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- - Getting the Record Straight Shoeless Joe Jackson Military service (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=194010)

Quote:

Originally Posted by EVAJOY91 (Post 1322518)

....I think a good pair of glasses are needed here....

At least with respect to photo ID, it seems there has been a significant improvement in auction house behavior in recent years. This change is correlated with (and likely influenced by) the emergence of at least several people outside of the AHs who have demonstrated that they are really good at this. That has fostered an increase in both healthy skepticism at auction houses and a general improvement in photo ID skills among the collecting population.

I have been fortunate to participate in all this as a consultant on early baseball photo ID to collectors, auction houses (including Huggins and Scott), major libraries (Library of Congress, Boston Public Library),authors, and most importantly I have written more articles on this subject than I can count for SABR. As such, I am more than willing to match my skills against deluded collectors and German vase enthusiasts.

It is the behavior of the auction house with respect to this photo and the “Fleet Walker” image that is most disturbing. The wholly irrational commentary posted here by the AH in response to arguments of well-known experts is appalling and should be embarrassing. Mike Nola has shown himself to be a high quality researcher and he is probably the preeminent Joe Jackson expert, and Dave Grob is the best memorabilia researcher and authenticator I know of. Add to that the ear discrepancy, and you have one of the worst examples of nonsense that I have seen on net54.

Mar.kFim0ff
co-chairman
SABR – Pictrorial History Committee

Quote:

Originally Posted by murphusa (Post 1322552)

Just another case of a collector spending days on his knees praying that an item is really what they want it to be. Yup, a farm tool is a bat. The paper item is old., the pennant too cool not to be real. The guy in this picture is....

People and their money are always around to make fools of themselves and there is always someone there to help them along

Jim, I don't think that's the case - he already knows it's not Jackson, and that the other one wasn't Walker (the bogus Fleetwood Walker piece also originated with EVAJOY91). It looks like he obtains old baseball photos and then tries to find someone in the photo who looks like a famous baseball player. If he can come up with a close enough visual match, he sends it to an auction house and hopes it flies. The only praying going on is that an auction house will accept it and that a couple of collectors will believe the BS.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bmarlowe1 (Post 1322658)

Mike Nola has shown himself to be a high quality researcher and he is probably the preeminent Joe Jackson expert

Thanks for the kudos Mark, I respect your work as well, when you confirmed your thoughts on it not being Joe, then I was SURE if wasn't him, although I was already 99 percent sure it wasn't :-)

On Another Joe Jackson Note..........

On another Joe Jackson note, I have a photo up for sale on the upcoming RMY Auctions. It is of Joe and his 1925 Waycross (GA) Coastliners team. You can see it here at: http://blackbetsy.com/imagefarm/new-...al-cropped.jpg
I acquired this from the grandson of the editor (during Joe's playing days there) of the Waycross Journal Herald newspaper. This is the only known copy to exist as it was not sent out over the wire services by the small town newspaper. Just in case anyone here may be interested in obtaining a REAL image with Joe Jackson in it (Jackson, third from right in photo).

Mike Nola
Official Historian
Shoeless Joe Jackson's Virtual Hall of Fame
http://www.blackbetsy.com

Getting the Record Straight Shoeless Joe Jackson Military service

Net54 members, today I asked Bill Huggins to pull this shoeless Joe Jackson military panoramic photograph from his upcoming auction. I will further my research because I believe that this is Shoeless Joe. I thank you all for your information and want to thank Hugging & Scott who stood by me till I asked them to pull the item at 12:10pm today Tuesday Sept, 16, 2014.

Quote:

Originally Posted by EVAJOY91 (Post 1322736)

Consignor did the right thing. I put more of the weight of all this on the auction house anyway.

Thanks for all your input. With agreement from the consignor, we are pulling the Joe Jackson military panoramic from the auction.
Josh

Quote:

Originally Posted by Econteachert205 (Post 1322742)

Consignor did the right thing. I put more of the weight of all this on the auction house anyway.

Agreed on your latter point. As for the consignor, this thread would likely have suppressed the realized price - I would speculate that is the reason it was pulled.

Now how about pulling that "Fleet Walker" photo?

Quote:

Originally Posted by bmarlowe1 (Post 1322754)

It's more probably that he is trying to get back in good faith with us so that he can do this again in the future with a more credible piece. If such consignors would just be happy with the AH accepting their piece, keep quiet here and take the money from the auction, they would be better off. But like those before him, they try to drum up bidders here in the forum, showing no respect for our intelligence.

Note to EVAJOY91 and others: we're better at this than the auction houses.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bmarlowe1 (Post 1322754)

Mark,
I didn't pull it, but I modified the description to reflect that it's not Walker, but an unknown African American ball player.

Thanks again for your great and diligent work.
Josh

Josh - Glad to hear it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bmarlowe1 (Post 1322658)

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=178305

They have had quite a few....

Some other classics that may have been missed.

http://aug14.hugginsandscott.com/cgi...l?itemid=71538

The sign is early 20th at best, a little research will show you that the producer of the sign was Belgian company that wasn't even up and running big till the 20's/30's and was a tin producer of lots of things such as cocoa tins.

Not everything that has the W.D. & H.O. Wills LTD. "Pirate Cigarettes" brand is connected directly to the T215 issue of cards but in the H&S world it is. When the current winner of this sign figures out what he bought and does a little digging overseas....he's going to find he may have paid a tad too much. :)

I get that not every auction house can do hours of research on every item they sell they may not have the man power etc. But at the very least don't make up stuff, just say early 20th Pirate Cigarettes sign...why jump to T215 era and big stories. Just like with the Wagner partial back...just say miscut Bowerman all the fantasy stuff is really insulting.

While you are correcting things, this is not an N173 Old Judge cabinet, despite what the SGC flip says...

http://www.hugginsandscott.com/cgi-b...l?itemid=77141

Chris Bland

I would also question how this was determined to be Amos Rusie....

http://www.hugginsandscott.com/cgi-b...l?itemid=77112

Chris Bland

Quote:

Originally Posted by the-illini (Post 1322803)

While you are correcting things, this is not an N173 Old Judge cabinet, despite what the SGC flip says...

http://www.hugginsandscott.com/cgi-b...l?itemid=77141

Chris Bland

As I said earlier, I'm surprised AH's don't hire someone with broad vintage experience to go over items before publishing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Runscott (Post 1322822)

As I said earlier, I'm surprised AH's don't hire someone with broad vintage experience to go over items before publishing.

This is an interesting point. I don't have the requisite knowledge to join but it would be interesting to have a select group of forum members view privately created threads by auction houses here for a charge. Per diem outside consulting on questionable items.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Econteachert205 (Post 1322833)

Dennis, it really only takes one person with broad knowledge (not necessarily 'expert' knowledge), who can sniff a rotten egg. This person smells a rat and passes it on to an expert, who then determines it's not the real deal...or it is. But if such a person were on board, they would have questioned this one, run it by a facial recognition expert like Mark, or a Jackson expert such as BlackBetsy, and they would have saved the AH some embarrassment.

Same for the 'Fleetwood Moses' photo - that one was even more ludicrous.

Another example - 10-12 years ago I acquired a town ball uniform with cap. I sold the set to a guy on ebay, who then consigned the cap only, through a major AH, as a game-used Cleveland Indians or Chicago White Sox cap (I forget which). I ratted them out and they took the item down, but this new job role I've described would have said "Hey, what provenance do you have?" and when there was none that was credible, they could have gone to someone in the vintage uniform collecting area and it wouldn't have taken 3-4 emails for me to end up finding out about it...before the AH embarrassed themselves.

Quote:

Originally Posted by the-illini (Post 1322807)

I would also question how this was determined to be Amos Rusie....

http://www.hugginsandscott.com/cgi-b...l?itemid=77112

Chris Bland

Chris,
Who knows.
This photo was discussed here.
http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...ght=amos+rusie

It's difficult to tell from the photo who it is. The only thing identifying Rusie is the writing on the back that had to be put on in after the late 70's as that is when he was elected to the HOF.

I agree but there are a lot of different kind of experts here, like autos jerseys ojs, so the right person isn't always the same person. Part of what makes this place amazing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Runscott (Post 1322822)

As I said earlier, I'm surprised AH's don't hire someone with broad vintage experience to go over items before publishing.

This isn't the first time SGC got a cabinet wrong that sold in Huggins and Scott:

http://dec09.hugginsandscott.com/cgi...l?itemid=16455

Chris Bland

Quote:

Originally Posted by EVAJOY91 (Post 1322736)

So you still think it is Shoeless Joe Jackson even though the EARS PROVE 100% that it's not him... WOW! I think you need glasses.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lordstan (Post 1322848)

Surprise, surprise - another EVAJOY91 mystery photo.

Not sure if this is from a Net54 board member, but this post was on Twitter (@ToddRadem) earlier this afternoon regarding the subject matter at hand:

"Another clue that it's modern? Inch marks as opposed to true quote marks. Done on a computer, not composed in metal type"

Quote:

Originally Posted by the-illini (Post 1322850)

This isn't the first time SGC got a cabinet wrong that sold in Huggins and Scott:

http://dec09.hugginsandscott.com/cgi...l?itemid=16455

Chris Bland

They really need to switch over to the more reliable 15 women at a vase party method of photo identification.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nashvol (Post 1322923)

I assume, he is referring to the Jackson broadside. Correct?
If so, I would've never thought of that. Wow. Another research fact to put in the memory banks. The depth of knowledge of this board always amazes me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bicem (Post 1322933)

They really need to switch over to the more reliable 15 women at a vase party method of photo identification.

Damn, Jeff! Be careful. I almost spit out my beverage when I read that! :D

Mark, yes, I assume so. I should have said that, sorry.

Skip

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackbetsy (Post 1322679)

Wow Mike. That is an incredible and I mean incredible Type 1 photo of the real Joe Jackson. Thanks for sharing. That should garner serious interest. A true beauty and in a baseball uniform as opposed to a military (not Joe Jackson) uniform. Adam

I've refrained from saying much on this thread besides to question the SABR "proof" and the whole military career of Jackson. But now after the ear thing, the Fleetwood Walker near miss and an even bigger mis-cue I gotta write something...

That Joe Jackson broadside is a a travesty! Not only does it have the computer quotation marks, but one of the typefaces used is Futura, which was not even cut until Jackson was comfortably retired! (first used in Germany from 1928 or so but not used in the US - let alone a small Southern letterpress printer - until the mid-late 1930's.

I do feature writing for a sports memorabilia auction house and because I am a graphic artist as well, I have been able to put the breaks on a few fakes by knowing my typeface and design history. Luckily many forgers don't know that stuff. In the two years I've worked for this AH, the owner has never hesitated to pull something that I found questionable.

I have to say, that even though the OP still doesn't believe us and thinks it's Jackson, this has been an incredible thread. It clearly shows the depth and breadth of knowledge on this board.
To me, the benefit of these type threads, beside removing or at least correctly identifying items, is the education I get from the many skilled people on the board. Learning how the experts do research is so interesting. For instance, I would've never thought of the history of typeface to be a key to spotting a fake. Now that I think about it, it obviously should be, but I don't think I ever considered it before. Just amazing.
I want thank all of you for being part of the board and hope you all continue for years to come.

The OP has posted a series of misidentified items on net54 in recent weeks. I think we should know his name.

Leon - what do you think?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lordstan (Post 1323005)

I have to say, that even though the OP still doesn't believe us and thinks it's Jackson,

That's what he says, but do you really believe it? Given that he also consigned the Amos Russie and the Fleetwood Walker?

Quote:

Originally Posted by bmarlowe1 (Post 1323011)

The OP has posted a series of misidentified items on net54 in recent weeks. I think we should know his name.

Leon - what do you think?

I think I agree with you Mark....his name is

Mich.ael Calv.ello

.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Runscott (Post 1323012)

That's what he says, but do you really believe it? Given that he also consigned the Amos Russie and the Fleetwood Walker?

Perhaps you're right.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lordstan (Post 1323038)

Perhaps you're right.

It's a tough call. It could be that every time he sees an old photo, he 'sees' someone famous in it, because of extreme wishful thinking, then sends it to an auction house to make his fortune. I would probably believe this, except for the writing on the back of the Rusie piece. Still, perhaps he bought it that way from someone who knew he was a sucker for such items.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lordstan (Post 1323005)

THIS. I continue to be blown away. Thanks to all for the education at Net54 University.

Tim

So all your talk made a nice Hauls of Shame article, I see!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lordstan (Post 1322941)

Damn, Jeff! Be careful. I almost spit out my beverage when I read that! :D

+1. Great thread.

Black Crows Broadside

Quote:

Originally Posted by jerseygary (Post 1322984)

That Joe Jackson broadside is a a travesty! Not only does it have the computer quotation marks, but one of the typefaces used is Futura, which was not even cut until Jackson was comfortably retired! (first used in Germany from 1928 or so but not used in the US - let alone a small Southern letterpress printer - until the mid-late 1930's.

When I first saw this about 15 to 20 years back, I thought it might be legitimate, then I started researching drug stores named Devine / Devine's. I found one drug store in South Dakota from Joe's outlaw ball days, but that town did not have a Crosley Field. Of course, I thought of the Cincinnati field right off the bat, but never found a Divine's drug store in Cincinnati (I am fairly certainly, MLB and Landis would not have allowed Jackson to play at Crosley in Cincinnati, so I pretty much ruled that out from the get go). Never found another town in the United States with a Divine's drug store, much less one with a Crosley field.....that is when I came to the conclusion, someone was having fun with me, never thought to check the fonts (I too, am putting that little tidbit in my toolbox). In my 33 years of researching Joe, I've had more people come to me with "stuff" they thought was Joe, or belonged to Joe or was used by Joe and they wanted CRAZY money all because of his name. I had a guy try to sell me a mink coat that he said belong to Joe's wife, without any provenance.....just his word that he acquire it from her before she died and he wanted over 100K for it........NUTS!!! They see Shoeless and it turns into $hoele$$ in their minds!!!
On the broadside, the term "vendored" in the "food will be vendored" sentence bothered me when I first read it before doing any research. Prior to this, I had never seen that term used in a 1920's or 30's broadside or any other advertisement for a game with Joe Jackson. Reminds me when Pete Nash go hot and heavy on the Barry Halper Joe Jackson White Sox uniform at the Hall. The obviously undoing in that jersey is that it was made by Spalding and Wilson was the supplier of the Sox uniforms in Joe's day. The only thing was the Sox was sewn on with thread that was not developed until the 1940's. Hey Fakers.....if you're going to go to the trouble to try to fake us out, at least use period material :-)

Mike Nola
Official Historian
Shoeless Joe Jackson Virtual Hall of Fame
http://www.blackbetsy.com

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lordstan (Post 1322941)

Damn, Jeff! Be careful. I almost spit out my beverage when I read that! :D

Why don't we see if a late night show host will do a street poll - at least more random than 15 pottery collecting women. We could develop criteria like if 6 out of 10 agree then it must be true!?

I asked my wife who has no clue who Joe is and she immediately said the lips do not match.

Getting the Record Straight Shoeless Joe Jackson Military service Reply to Thread

I posted this magnificent 1909 world championship pirates photo back in july around the same time i posted the shoeless joe jackson military panoramic photo. I asked net54 members back in july to help me identify both photos. No one at that time paid any attention to the posts. One member comment yesterday said that "every photo i post i see someone famous" i ask that member where was he back in july? If i had the many comments on the joe jackson panoramic photo i wouldn't have consigned to huggins & scott. But again, no comment back then. Well here is another photo i posted back in july that will be auctioned by huggins & scott. Does everyone see the great honus wagner? Let me know what you experts think. I can still pull it even though this exact photo sold at auction in 2007 for $3,000. Thank you as always for any help you can provide. Regards, michael calvello

I have to say, the Jackson mis-identification is far less egregious than that Fleetwood Walker travesty. "He's black and he's on an early baseball team," seems to be the only link between that guy and Walker. To even get that as far as an auction preview is pretty embarrassing.

Ken

I can't speak for anyone else, but I gently questioned Joe Jackson and his military career when you posted this photo earlier. This is what I wrote:

"I'm not a Shoeless Joe expert by any stretch, but didn't he avoid serving in the war by leaving the White Sox a few weeks into the 1918 season and getting employed at Bethlehem Steel shipyards in Wilmington, Delaware? I recall reading that Comiskey had some very choice words to say about what he felt was Jackson avoiding the draft by playing ball for Bethlehem Steel under the ruse of a war-production job. The Chicago sportswriters really let Jackson have it as well.

Did he join the Army at the tail end of the war? I'm curious what the story is behind the picture. "

You didn't add any answers to the thread and then started another with the same picture. I didn't pursue it further or voice any of my doubts about this picture (let alone say that I don't think it looks anything like Joe Jackson) because most of the threads you start are about these phantom famous players and don't seem to have anything to back them up with. Plus you never seem to take anyone's advice or expertise so I thought that any further reply to your old Joe Jackson military photo thread would be a waste of time. I can only assume others thought the same.

Now that you got the you somehow got the Jackson photo to appear in a legit auction house where misinformed buyers could be tricked - that's why the Net54 community has come down on your picture like a bag of hammers.

Before you were a harmless wishful thinker, now people could lose money if these pictures aren't thoroughly vetted. I hope your pictures do turn out to have the people you say are in them. That would be a great find. But don't post them on Net54 with the expectation of selling them at auction and expect the collectors here to just ok them. This forum has the highest concentration of baseball history and memorabilia minds on the web. Most here are extremely helpful and kind but also diligently protect their hobby.

If any of your pictures do turn out to really feature Fleet Walker or Joe Jackson, the fella's on Net54 would be the first to not only confirm the legitimacy of the photo but supply you with all the background information you need to sell the picture at auction, all for the sheer joy of helping a fellow collector. A Net54 member would probably wind up buying the piece as well.

I replied to your original tread. Others did as well, voicing their doubt. You just chose not to acknowledge us.

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackbetsy (Post 1323270)

Well, you do have this sign listed on your website with no mention that it is a fantasy piece. It's pretty much the only link that shows up in a search of this item besides the few times it's been auctioned off....If I were a prospective bidder and saw it listed on your site I might be inclined to bid on it.

http://www.blackbetsy.com/photosOutlawBallDays.html

Quote:

Originally Posted by EVAJOY91 (Post 1323700)

I wasn't even a member in July but you seem to be suggesting that it is the duty of forum members to do free research for you and that it is their fault for not informing you in July that your photo was bogus. There's a big difference between someone saying hey have a look at this than the scrutiny an item receives when it ends up in a major auction house with a hefty price tag. Marlowe and others who are experts in their field don't have time to inspect every marginal piece that shows up on the board and we are all lucky they take the time they do to educate us all on such subjects. The Pittsburgh Pirates piece is great, I hope you do well with it.

My recollection is that you(evajoy) were posting items that you identified and asked about values, not that you asked what the items actually were. In many instances there were substantial issues and questions about your identification, which resulted in defenses of the items by you, which were also questioned. I also recall members asking you to continue posting, as the items were interesting even if they were not what you assumed they were. The "1889 boston team" photo with Walker was clearly questioned, both as to team and Walker.

Quote:

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide (Post 1323788)

Whoops!!! This one got by us. We totally forgot we had this in the Outlaw Ball Days section of the site. It's been up for many years and we just totally forgot about it being there. We have corrected the listing to clearly let our visitors know that this is a fantasy broadside. Thanks for pointing that out to us.....now I'm gonna go wipe the egg off my face :-)

Mike Nola
Official Historian
Shoeless Joe Jackson Virtual Hall of Fame
http://www.blackbetsy.com