This is the first thing that hit me as well...

Everyone who's been wondering whether it is

A. Incompetence

or

B. Favorable Grading to preferred customers

Got nothing answered. Zero explanation for the hundreds of glaring mistakes they've recently made (likely thousands before this is put to bed). Why would we continue to put our faith in this company, with a pathetic canned "pass the buck" response like that? Written by some faceless attorney who doesn't give a crap about what's right, or the state of the hobby. Screw them.

That's for them to pass the buck down to the consignor. Except I bet those PayPal accounts are bone dry.

I would have liked to be the fly on the wall in that conversation between Mr Sloan and Mr Huigens.

This pretty much sums it up. PSA stands by their process. Go through the red tape for any concerns. customerservice@collectors.com business as usual.

I started sending links of the recent scandal(s) to the major holders of CLCT stock today. It really bothers me that people are making a profit based on high grading fees (and will not stand behind the product). Everyone should contact the principals of these organizations and let them know what they are holding.

Top Institutional Holders
Holder Shares Date Reported % Out Value
Renaissance Technologies, LLC 726,863 Mar 30, 2019 7.95% 12,734,639
Dimensional Fund Advisors LP 333,701 Mar 30, 2019 3.65% 5,846,441
North Star Investment Management Corp 302,325 Mar 30, 2019 3.30% 5,296,734
Vanguard Group, Inc. (The) 293,803 Mar 30, 2019 3.21% 5,147,428
Sterling Capital Management LLC 202,090 Mar 30, 2019 2.21% 3,540,616
Dalton, Greiner, Hartman, Maher & Company 194,472 Mar 30, 2019 2.13% 3,407,149
Royce & Associates LP 180,575 Mar 30, 2019 1.97% 3,163,674
Pembroke Management, LTD 138,337 Mar 30, 2019 1.51% 2,423,664
FMR, LLC 132,366 Mar 30, 2019 1.45% 2,319,052
Wells Fargo & Company 130,498 Mar 30, 2019 1.43% 2,286,324

Maybe they'll rent PWCC's booths at the National to set up a refund line.

Do Dave Forman and SGC have it in them to step up their game and win some business away from PSA at this point?

http://photos.imageevent.com/exhibit...ong%20jack.gif

Mr. Chow's hand is getting worn out by all these half-assed statements.

LOL, I find it funny that the largest holder is a quant fund. That's what you get for straying from fundamental investing.

That is just the best post I ever saw on this board. LOL (and crying)...

the most unbelievable line
 

"[PSA] will not let isolated acts from a few dishonest actors deter consumer confidence in our brand."

Ummm...aren't you the ones people are largely relying on and paying to deter the dishonest actors? Do that and maybe people will have confidence in the brand. Can't make this stuff up.

Both PWCC and PSA are going to be at the Long Beach Coin Expo Thursday-Saturday. I'm sure that I'll give thanks to PWCC.

PSA's live Facebook video day is tomorrow: early with Vintage Breaks, followed soon after by Rico Petrocelli's show. We'll see if they show up to those before claiming they'll be at a small show right now.

Sloan is living in fantasyland. Yup, we should just trust him to handle this privately like we trusted him to grade our cards privately and then rely on the results the same way. A fraction of the people who have been directly impacted by this are probably even aware as to what has transpired so doing this his way will result in a very small percentage of cards getting returned for refunds. Well unfortunately for Mr. Sloan I'm pretty certain this time is going to be different and this is not going to get swept under the rug like it has in the past.

I can assure you lawyers are actively searching for plaintiffs to file lawsuits against PSA and others and they will be forced to turn over entire lists of cards submitted by the offending parties so that everyone impacted has an opportunity to be made whole. And then, whether it's found to be $1 or millions of dollars that need to be paid back, I suspect the courts or law enforcement will then determine who has liability for what and the chips will fall as they may.

And while it's mighty nice of you to pass the buck to the "few dishonest actors," perhaps it might be a better idea to look in the mirror and ask why at best your graders were completely incapable of stopping much of this? Why were you continuing to accept cards from known fraudsters? And finally why, if you "take consumer protection seriously" are you forcing people to sue you to get the lists of all cards submitted by Moser and PWCC instead of releasing it yourself? We are spending upwards of $5000 per card to rely on you to catch these folks and instead you chose to cash our checks and laugh. I'll be very surprised if you'll be laughing for long.

I'm guessing that you're way off on that one.

Do you really believe there are no doctored cards in SGC holders?

According to their website, they're not skipping it. It says so right here.

<a href="http://imgbox.com/vx40Bt6U" target="_blank"><img src="https://images2.imgbox.com/55/65/vx40Bt6U_o.png" alt="image host"/></a>

Well said. And it isn't just Moser, not even close. They know who the card doctors are. How could they not, they are at the center of the hobby and the names of these guys are widely known. And it's more than a "few."

Of course not. But at this point I believe that overall they are better at this than PSA. The stuff identified on BO is in my opinion the tip of a very large iceberg of doctored cards in PSA holders. But we'll never know for sure if this is their response. WIWAG redux. Same response to a far more serious problem. The burden is on us.

Absolutely not. But SGC is currently not in the cross-hairs.

I wonder if SGC was at the top of the grading mountain would they be in the same @#$%storm that PSA is in?

Seems like a good time to name names. Call it the Colon Blow hobby cleanse. People are reading this thread and no longer want to sit on the sidelines.

Since there's almost no profit incentive in sending cards to SGC (compared to PSA and BGS), SGC will be largely unscathed from this scandal.

They were the smartest people by shuttering the auto authentication arm, either by chance or by intention.

Chow just never gets old :D

Of course it is true. I think all TPGs are equally competent (or incompetent). In a way, PSA is a victim of their own success. If SGC cards were trading at a premium in the market I’m sure the majority of the doctored cards would have been submitted to and graded by them.

Guess all those bad t206 autos just got brushed under the carpet.

Jay maybe so, it's a hard hypothetical to test.

You're probably right, but I've always given SGC more credit for the 19th Century cards.

IMO the best customer-focused action that PSA could do at this point would be to publish all the certification numbers (or tag them via the certification verification) of cards submitted by or on behalf of known card doctors.

I believe they owe that to their customers, i.e., those who have supported their brand.

Edited to add that I emailed this request to Messrs. Orlando and Sloan

I don’t know about CYA. From what I saw on The Wire and Breaking Bad, when you may be charged with a cime or a lawsuit, you should definitely NOT talk for 60 minutes on the record.

It would be fun to watch SGC cards start to command higher prices than PSA, but that won't happen any time soon. It is possible though.

They might need to buy new bandwidth to publish such a list. It would be, IMO, stunningly long. But I agree, the current posture is wholly inadequate.

This is another thing I've emailed them a few days ago. Maybe I missed my calling as a lawyer.

Who is better, the economist who predicted two of the last four recessions or the economist who predicted six of the last four recessions?

I am guessing Sloan did not respond to any of your emails or you would have posted the responses.

The latter. More accuracy.

I think that's right. 2/3 as opposed to 1/2

He and Betsy (copied both of them each time) stopped responding on May 7th. But no, I wasn't planning on posting them even if they did. Don't mind posting ones I sent them.

Gods do not answer letters I guess.

agreed. I guess we're not all that different after all?:D That we have a very low threshold for complete scammers in the hobby we all love(d). I've loved it on and off my entire life and this PWCC scam is neither fun nor funny, IMHO. Thanks Brent Mastro!, Thanks PSA!

I do try to stand up for I feel is right and fight authority whenever I can. PWCC has been on my s*** list but now you can add PSA to the list of companies I'm hating on right now after that very weak response. Just pathetic. My fake crap is going into the attic immediately right next to my fake autographed photos and fake baseballs. I'm done. What I have I have and not 1 more PERIOD!

I am done talking about it which will make many of you very joyous:( (especially Leon)

The last thing I do for the hobby and my fellow collectors will be to get the
F Face cards made for the National.

Just my personal opinion, but like I have said numerous times, I think SGC does a far better job at grading than PSA does?

I'd also go out on a limb and say, with regards to the T206 sig scandal, that it was likely one guy who authenticated the majority of those, and I would assume he is no longer employed?

Well
 

Nothing to help people forget about a scandal like a BIGGER scandal!!



Perhaps it was a typo - combating-committing:eek:?

This guy made a nice post over at the PSA message board. Looks like some of their guys are reading this board, and think we're being too harsh.

Those guys should read more threads and see how involved PSA is in this scandal.

The other thing I'm not thrilled with is that this is posted on only one of their message boards, and you have to click and scroll around on the site to even find it. Despite how weak it is, it needs to be plastered on the FRONT PAGE of their website in that center slot, so that everyone who visits the site can read it.

DING DING DING we have a winner. Of course the doctors are going through PSA and to a lesser degree Beckett (for modern). That's where top dollar is. SGC's position saved them in this case.

But would they have caved into the corruption of passing obviously corrupted cards along to their registry people?

Or maybe old-style PSA flips will become more in vogue, since those were submitted over 10 years ago before this was going on?

Is there a joke in there or a reference that I'm not getting? 6 of the last 4 recessions? Did you mean 4 of the last 6 recessions?

He means the economist predicted 6 but there were only 4.

Through all this the PWCC banner ad remains up.

Unconvincing Attempt at Damage Control
 

The scariest thing about the PSA statement is how much effort they put into trying to convince us that the virus is contained and will be eradicated — without any explanation as to what the cure is — by suggesting that it’s an “isolated act” and not an absolute plague on the hobby. Even Exxon had better statements after the Valdez oil spill.

Congratulations for rejecting “thousands of altered and counterfeit cards . . . each year.” If you reject thousands of altered cards and you encapsulate thousands of altered cards you’re doing about as well as a coin flip.

What exactly is “[y]our on-going investments in grading and holder technology”?
The “lighthouse logo” now acts more like a traditional lighthouse, alerting oncoming collectors to rocky shores beneath the glow. Never mind that if you lock a trimmed card in Fort Knox, all you’ve managed to do is protect a trimmed card. The seatbelt is somewhat less helpful after the crash.

“[I]solated acts from a few dishonest actors”? The bubonic plague requires humans to be isolated so that the disease doesn’t spread. These acts were the opposite — the were intentionally socialized, designed to spread altered cards into all of our collections. You can isolate as many actors as you want today, but the damage already done has extremely far-reaching, and invasive effects. These cards are in all of our collections, and they stain the good ones with an unwashable air of doubt and uncertainty.

“Rest assured that PSA will not let the actions of a few have any lingering impact on the hobby or the PSA brand.” You’ll forgive me if I’m not feeling all that reassured by this statement. How are you going to clean up the spill?

Who says it wasn't?