I know. Somewhat freaky for sure. :(

Is there some scandal with Schumacher? His PSA 9 RC which not long ago was over 200 just sold under 100.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/28485746772...MAAOSw6hJiqktU

I think the markets getting saturated. It’s turning out to be a much more common set then people anticipated a couple years ago. Like most early 90’s issues in all sports, there’s been lots of overstock of this uncovered.

I think the market is just softening due to the economy and recession fears. The 1992 Grid set was worth very little up until a year or two ago. Even the Topps 2020 F1 cards, which just kept rising into the stratosphere, have had a noticeable pullback in recent months.

Here are a couple my NASCAR cards.

Any thoughts on this one? I never understand why on some of these there is a grade for the card but not the auto, and some vice versa, and some both, is it a question of how much someone is willing to pay to get it graded?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/18540420271...UAAOSwvZZiadey

Might just go for it lol, not many PSA graded and I prefer that to Beckett.

I'll take a shot at answering some of your question.

This applies to autographed cards certified from the company; Topps, Panini, etc. With SGC when they grade an autographed card, they will also grade the autograph if it is in mint or above (I think that's what I was told) at no charge and note the grade for both on the label. With PSA they will also grade the company issued autographed card but charge a fee. The PSA label will reflect both grades, regardless of the numeric value assigned.

If the card has been privately obtained, PSA will charge you an autograph authentication fee - if it passes - it would then be graded (which you would be charged) - and then the card would be graded (which you would be charged). The label would then reflect both the autograph grade and the card grade. Beckett is comparable to PSA. I don't know how SGC does it.

Confusing to say the least. Hope it helps and someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

The linked card, I am pretty sure, is a factory issued auto card, but the label only calls the autos authentic and does not assign a grade. There are lots of PSA graded factory cards like this. I think the submitter can ask for the autos to be graded for an additional charge. For a later signed non factory auto, the card itself won't get a number grade because it wasn't issued in its current form.

Peter, that card looks good. The price looks high, but it could be a while until a PSA graded one shows up at auction.

Thank you. Yeah, it is a tad high. I'll think on it.

SADA Fangio. Eddie, is it 56 or 58 do you know?

Awesome pickup, Peter. I don't get how undervalued Fangio cards are, considering he is one of the 3-4 drivers for whom a serious case can be made for being the best F1 driver of all time.

I believe the SADA card is from 1958, although I have seen it listed by eBay sellers as 1956. The information I found previously online about the card almost always listed the year as 1958.

https://www.cardsoflegends.com/colle...l-fangio-1958/

Here is a checklist from the entire set of SADA cards, and the checklist says 1958. That would make me think that is the correct year.

http://athleticards.com/c_girandola.html

Thanks. From the Marciano I always thought it was a 58 set. As for the other drivers in the conversation, are you thinking Clark Senna and Hamilton? Lots of views on the subject of course.

I was actually thinking Schumacher more than Clark. I know Clark was killed at Hockenheim at age 32 and his win percentage is among the best of all time, but his early death robbed him of future wins/titles. Even with Clark's early death, I think it is hard to make a case for him being number one with 25 wins and two world titles when you look at how many wins and titles the other possibilities had.

Prost is usually ranked somewhere between third and fifth all-time on most lists, and I guess that is probably where he should be. But I was listening to Tom Clarkson's F1 "Beyond the Grid" podcast with Prost a few months back and Clarkson made a credible case for how Prost could have won 7-8 world titles.

Prost won four championships and finished second four other times. He lost the title by two points to Nelson Piquet in 1983, half a point to Niki Lauda in 1984, three points to Senna in 1988 and seven points to Senna in 1990 (thanks to the infamous Suzuka crash when he was taken out by Senna).

I have a Prost RC (hopefully) incoming; I recently had a UK package go missing on me.

I know Prost does not have the miraculous story of Lauda or the mythic aura of Senna, but he seems so undervalued compared to the explosion in prices for his contemporaries.

Winners Circle Say No To Drugs 1989
 

Just completed this NASCAR "Winners Circle Say No To Drugs" set after more than 30 years!

This set was extremely low-printed, and was tough in 1989. So tough that counterfeits came out about 1991.

As the counterfeits are very deceptive, I was concerned until the Fred Lorenzen card arrived, but it is genuine.

So another set finished.

Jon

The buying phase continues with Lewis Hamilton. Normally I would buy a "rookie" card or something as early in time as possible, but the 2006 Futuera is out of the question, I really don't care for the 2009 SI for Kids card showing his car and even less for the Top Trumps, and there wasn't anything in between, so I ended up with his first Topps card. Why someone sent this to Mike Baker is beyond me.

Nice Topps Now Hamilton pickup, Peter. That card really cooled off once Topps Chrome F1 came out, but I think that Hamilton card can be a winner long term financially because of the small print run. I do agree with you that the Top Trumps and SIFK Hamilton cards do nothing for me, either. I do like his two card No. 1 images on the 2020 Topps Chrome cards; he looks like such a bad ass in each image.

I may break down and eventually buy an SIFK just because it's 11 years earlier, but they seem overpriced (what isn't) on ebay.

Here's another 2009 Lewis Hamilton issue I dug up. Peter, I don't think you'll like this one any better then the other 2009 issues, but you might find it at a much more reasonable price.

I personally like it better then the SI issue, but not as much as the Top Trumps issue.

Also has the earliest card I've found of Sebastian Vettel (4 titles, though no one seems to care quite yet), though there's probably something a little earlier out there on him.

German "Formel 1" issue. These exist with different backs such as the "Quartett" issue shown here. Also "Top Ass" and a couple other versions I've found.

These type German issues can be complicated to date as they were issued in toy stores from year to year, with many of the same pictures, but with different number variations.

A lot of sellers date them by the season listed on the cards, though that's a very faulty method to do so. If you have a full set, you basically go, the last season mentioned in the set + 1, for the date of issue.

You can differentiate the year issued based on the numbers listed on certain cards. In the 2009 set from what I can tell, the Lewis Hamilton is always numbered "A2", and the Vettel is always numbered "F4".

Example: I don't have one on hand, but if the set was re-issued again in 2010, you might see a similar card of Hamilton listed as "Saison 2008", but it will have a different number in the upper left corner.

Some drivers and cars will be cycled in and out of sets, depending of the most recent season of drivers.

All very complicated, and it probably turns a lot of collectors off to them, but I tend to love these little complicated Formula 1 game sets. :D:D

next

Great pick up, Peter. There have been a lot of Lauda Vedettes coming out of the woodwork in recent months, and they continue to go for strong prices.

Prost is in.

86 Earnhardt on ebay if anyone is interested.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/19524521213...&segname=11021

Ravensburger SGC
 

Well, I know these issues are complicated, but SGC is getting these wrong already.

Here's one for now. I'm sure if I looked hard enough I could find others.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/36392093793...&segname=11021

This Lewis Hamilton card #4C is labeled as a 2010 Ravensburger "Pole Position" issue. It is actually a 2012 issue. The 2010 issue using this image, should be numbered #4A.

You can tell this is a 2012 issue, because if you look in the bottom left corner of the card, you can see card #4A (and most recent car) in this run should be the McLaren-Mercedes MP4/26 car, driven by Lewis Hamilton and Jenson Button during the 2011 season.

I will post the images of the incorrectly dated SGC card, and what the correct 2010 card looks like.

I know these cards can be very similar from year to year. Best way to tell them apart is the number listed in the top left corner, and then the car models listed in that number sequence in the bottom left corner of the card.

Hope this makes at least a little bit of sense, if anybody cares about the obscurities in these sets.

Here's one SGC got correct.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/30456130396...Cclp%3A2047675

It's become much more expensive, but for what it is I still think it has a lot of upside, so added a second one. Probably fooling myself.

Peter, when I saw you had a new post in this thread, I thought it was going to be about picking up the 1965 Lampo Jim Clark that ended last night. LOL. I have bought from that seller before, and he does have some neat oddball racing cards, since he is based in Italy. The final price of $1,027 was very strong. I remember a Lampo Clark from the same seller a few months ago that ended in the $400 range.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/175358716539

With regard to speculating on prices down the road, I think Max Verstappen is worth loading up on. I know there is a huge danger in buying cards of current athletes, but he is already eighth in career F1 wins at age 24. With the season seemingly going to stay at 21-22 races for the foreseeable future, he has so many more chances to win races than drivers from even one generation ago.

IMO, Hamilton's seven titles and 103 wins are already fully priced into his cards.

I missed that one. Not sure I would have gone that high but yeah, quite a card. What do you like for Verstappen? Anything earlier than 2020?

I think the card to have for Verstappen is far and away the 2020 Topps Chrome Card No. 6, either the standard portrait or the short-printed image variation. Cards 1-20 of the 20 drivers from the 2020 Chrome set have already become iconic. The Verstappen stuff from before 2020 are game cards, which I don't think will ever be too in demand.

Don't worry about the other million or so Verstappen cards Topps has produced since 2020. Card No. 6 is the one you want. Of course, there are all kinds of parallels with different print runs. But even the basic refractor from 2020 Chrome has a print run of about 1,100, which isn't outrageous for a worldwide sport.

If you are looking to prospect on F1, another guy to keep in mind is Oscar Piastri. His cards aren't dirt cheap, but he is probably the biggest coming star. He was F3 champion and F2 champion in back to back years. It is crazy that he was merely a reserve driver this year with that resume, but he will almost certainly be in F1 next year (probably with Alpine).

Thanks I'll probably grab a base card of Max just for the hell of it.

Not sure why the 2016 Top Trumps Verstappen doesn't rate. I'm obviously a fan of the game cards, but F1 cards didn't magically appear on the scene when Topps decided to start printing them.

I guess I'd compare them to all the STAR cards that came out in Basketball before the 1986 Fleers, except there's no counterfeit for reprint issues to worry about.

Not saying it because I have a stack of them either. I've got exactly one from a set I picked up awhile back, and the Verstappen ended up being the worst conditioned card in the deck. :mad:

Still haven't picked up a 2009 Hamilton Top Trumps either, though I do like that card also.

Not sure that's a fair comparison. The Star are clearly conventional basketball cards, just issued differently. The game cards seem more like novelty items to me.

Difference of opinion I guess. I'm surprised you have this stance, considering all of the oddball and foreign issues you specialize in and collect.

All cards are novelty items IMO. They are produced and distributed in many different ways.

Neither were issued in traditional random packs. Both were issued in complete set or team set form in the case of the Star Cards.

I'd argue the Game cards are a more conventional issue, especially the way they were distributed.

Most of the Formula 1 game sets were available to the general public in one country or another in various hobby shops, toy stores, department stores, etc...

They were/are much more accessible then the Star Co. stuff, which consisted of a dealer network of about a 1/2 dozen guys in the hobby, who then sold them through SCD, at random card shows, etc...

I was involved in the show circuit at the time when those were out or coming out...and not sure anybody considered any of the Star product line, including all those Jose Canseco, Will Clark, Don Mattingly, Daryl Strawberry, etc....sets, very conventional at all.

I don't think the STAR card analogy works; the comparison that does work is the Fan Craze/National Game/Tom Barker game cards for baseball. There will always be some interest in those cards, just as there is for game cards in F1. But there is a reason people suggest cards like National Game and Tom Barker for cheap playing days cards of Ty Cobb and Shoeless Joe Jackson. The interest just isn't there to drive prices higher for the game cards.

Dave, to be clear I was not critical at all of the game cards and I love oddball, I was just quibbling with the analogy to Star basketball.

Guys....... I'm loving this thread and your knowledge of the international racing sets/cards. I'm more of a vintage baseball card collector, but I've always been an open wheel fan and my 13 year old son has developed the same interest. We bought a couple F1 boxes this year without much success, unfortunately, but the cards are awesome. As cool as the Topps F1 sets are, I don't mind the older Hamilton and Verstappen 'game cards' as they're something earlier to collect of each driver. I haven't pulled the trigger on anything yet, but I have a feeling it's going to start costing me some $$$ very soon.

Fair enough guys. I still don't understand the allegiance to Topps over all the producers of F1 cards that came before them..."game cards" or not, especially since most of these cards were distributed where F1 was actually followed the most at the time, but I won't belabor the point.

Like Peter, I also meant no disrespect at all. Any kind of discussion of racing cards is good; just a different way of looking at what each of us would like in our collection. :)

I often prefer the earlier card/collectible over the mainstream rookie, but in the case of Lewis Hamilton (lol not being in a position to buy a million dollar 2006 Futuera) I just couldn't pull the trigger on the Top Trumps or SIFK with the car on front.

None taken Eddie. It's all good. :)

2008 Ravensburger
 

Just stumbled across this on Ebay. (Not mine, and I don't have one)

https://www.ebay.com/itm/39418410886...YAAOSwZBBi5bxk


Based on the numbering, this looks like an actual 2008 issue. Earliest German Ravensburger I have seen. I understand why others won't like them because of the repeat designs but they are a legitimate retail issue, and as Popeye says..."They am, what they am!"

;)

How would you like to be the guy who dropped $312,000 on a 2006 Lewis Hamilton Futera card a few months ago, only to have his 2005 F3 card from Formule surface at action this month? I knew that card existed, but had never seen one for sale before.

https://goldin.co/item/2005-formule-...-none-lowlrkqt

I am not much of a fan of magazine cards, but $12,000 (and only three bids) right now for that card just seems way cheap compared to what his Futera card sold for a few months ago.

On a similar note, more Hamilton Futera cards are now coming out of the woodwork. I had not seen one for sale for years, but the current Goldin auction has two more up for bid.

Did Goldin represent the Futuera was his first card? If I were the buyer of the first one I would not be happy, even more so with the others now up for auction, although Goldin could not help that unless it already had them lined up.

I would have to go back and look at that auction, but a lot of the hobby believed the 2006 Futera card was his first card. Even the F1 groups I am a member of on Facebook have long had people discussing the Futera card as Hamilton's true rookie.

I did not even know the 2005 Formule card existed until there was a discussion in one of the Facebook groups about it a few months ago.

Interesting. I don't think I was aware that card even existed.

I was wondering when more Futera's would come out. They are not common, but I'm pretty sure they had a reasonable print-run.

So far it appears Hamilton's 1st known appearances in Cards goes as follows:

Formula 3 Series - 2005 Formule (Czech publication)

Formula 2 Series - 2006 Futera

Formula 1 Series - 2007 Formule (thanks Eddie S.), 2008 Formule, 2008 Ravensbuger "Pole Position" Game card ;), 2009 SI For Kids Card, 2009 Top Trumps Card, Whatever 2020 Topps card you want to add to this list (Pick your poison)

I think there's another one in there, that gives even me the willies, that I'm not listing. :)

Goldin did bill the $312,000 Hamilton Futera card as a "rookie card."

https://goldin.co/item/2006-futera-g...-mint-9-pj71md

Technically, in modern sports card collecting, it would be a "Pre-Rookie" card, I believe.

It's the collectors I think that ultimately decide which ones they prefer, and which ones go for the highest premiums. "Rookie" is just a word, and everybody decides for themselves what it means to them.

How many Topps Lewis Hamilton cards have the word "Rookie" next to it, when you go on Ebay? Hundreds.....