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Posted By: <b>Tony Andrea</b><p>Hi Tom -<br>I agree, you see many uneducated voters every election, but there seemed to be so many more young<br>voters this time around that didn't have a clue on the issues. I don't think many of them ever read<br>a paper or even watch the news. <br><br>Tony A.
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Posted By: <b>Jim VB</b><p>Dave, Tom, et al, <br><br>You guys have either been drinking the red Kool-aid or watching too much FOX News. Obama has NEVER changed the levels of his tax plan. He has always said taxes will go up (from 36% to 39%, back to what they were under Reagan) on family incomes over $250,000 (individuals over $200,000). He has always said that taxes will go down for families under $200,000. Incomes between the two levels would stay about the same. <br><br>Last week, at one campaign stop, Biden talked about the tax relief a family making $150,000 would get. That number was an example. It was chosen because it was deemed to be a representative number for that days crowd (I think he was in Northern Virginia at the time, but I could be mistaken.) <br><br>The McCain campaign jumped all over that and called it a "change." It wasn't. It was an example. <br><br><br>That said, I agree with Tom that the number may have to change to straighten out the fiscal mess our country is in. The problem is that we (the USA) have already spent the money (our money, our kids money, and our grandkids money.) We all sat by far too quietly and let spending go unchecked for the last 8 years. Someday, you have to pay the piper. <br><br>But right now, the proposal is that if you make $300,000 a year (top 3-4% nationwide) you would pay an extra 3% on the income over $250,000. I don't think that $1500 will break any of those earners.
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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>I didn't vote Obama but I am ok with the choice made. Americans made it and we will move forward. Bush has not done a good job as president though I still think his heart is in the right place. This was a perfect storm for Obama to win. If McCain would have won it would have taken a miracle. There was just too much stacked against him, including his VP nominee. What I found very telling was this fact.<br><br>Blacks that voted for Obama - 40%<br>Blacks that voted for McCain- 01%<br><br>My guess is that this statistic will be overlooked. <br><br>Now, if I can come up with a way to make so little I don't pay any tax then I can actually get a refund and free healthcare. I need to contempelate that... I do hope Obama does good and we definitely are in need of change...
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Posted By: <b>Richard Simon</b><p>Leon - if you wish to make so little that you won't pay taxes,, how would you buy your baseball cards?? <img src="/images/happy.gif" alt="happy.gif"><img src="/images/happy.gif" alt="happy.gif">.<br>==<br><br>I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.<br>Unknown author <br>--<br>We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember.<br>No retreat baby, no surrender.<br>The Boss
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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>I will buy them with the tax refund check and money I save on health care...Haven't you seen all of the hoopalah? I do think Obama is a good guy but doesn't understand that when he taxes those that have worked hard to make a good living, and many are employers, then they won't be supplying as many jobs for the people he is trying to help.
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Posted By: <b>David Atkatz</b><p>Come on, Leon. That extra 3% will, for most who are hit by it, work out to be less than you spend on cards each year.<br><br><br><br>That's hardly going to be the difference between expanding, or not expanding, their businesses.
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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>It's the theory that bothers me. If you won't help yourself don't worry...the government will. Socialism here we come....It's really a fundamental difference and no matter what you and I debate you will believe the way you do and I will believe the way I do. <br><br>As I have said....I think Obama is a good, inexperienced, politician. He is a very good orator. One other thing too; I have never heard him say "I made a mistake". That is kind of bothersome. Hey, he can't do much worse than we have had...so we have that going for us!!
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Posted By: <b>David Atkatz</b><p>So...<br><br>A 36% tax bracket is Socialism.<br><br>But a 33% tax bracket is good, old-fashioned, American democracy.
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Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>What? Not enough cowbell in here yet?<br><br><object width="425" height="350" data="http://www.youtube.com/v/Lo6HONeuT-M"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/Lo6HONeuT-M"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><!--[if IE]><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/Lo6HONeuT-M"type="application/x-shockwave-flash"wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350" /><![endif]--></object>
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Posted By: <b>Dave F</b><p><br>David-<br><br>It's one thing for my tax money to go to education, social security, national defense, road improvements, etc. It's the "social services" side of it I don't think needs to be beefed up more. With the taxes we pay now why is that not enough for food stamps and public housing? <br><br>I guess its ok with you. For me I was taught to stand on my own two feet. When I go into downtown Atlanta to see a ballgame and I see plenty of the locals on the side of the street with a fifth of liquor I have to shake my head. At some point adults should have to take care of themselves...they shouldn't need even more of my money that I would rather put in something so it can mature and hand down to my own children. Yes, I'm a jerk I guess. I'd rather hand my money down to my own children. Even that extra 3%. Most, not all of the folks needing federal assitance could better themselves. They choose not to, and as long as the government wants to play mommy/daddy they won't have to.
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Posted By: <b>David Atkatz</b><p>And you know for a fact that that extra 3% is going into food stamps?<br><br>Perhaps it will pay down the debt incurred by fighting a war with borrowed money.<br><br>Or maybe it will go towards the $750B bailout that now seems to be providing nice Christmas bonuses for those poor souls who will be hit by the tax increase.
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Posted By: <b>Dave F</b><p><br><br>No, I don't know for a fact. I'm taking Obama at his word when he says he wants to hit with tax increases people above such and such and redistribute it to the underprivilaged to help "boost" the economy.
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Posted By: <b>gotwins</b><p>Leon, Obama won pretty much every major demographic across the board--including white men with a college education or higher. He won every educational level, all age groups except 65 and older, and by some exit polls, won even those who make $200K or more. He would have won even if he only garnered the same % of blacks that Kerry received in 2004.<br><br>Tom, your taxes will go up, that is true. Obama understands that the fragility of the economy right now won't allow for much in the way of immediate tax increases, and he will raise taxes only for those making $250K or more. Mark my words, that's where the line will be drawn in 2009. At the end of 2010--halfway through Obama's term, the Bush tax cuts will expire and will not be renewed. Taxes will then return to what they were under Clinton--Obama has said this repeatedly. Although he won't technically be raising taxes, Obama will no doubt get the blame for them going up because of his refusal to extend the cuts. He has been clear on these points. <br><br>McCain, by contrast, kept telling people what they wanted to hear, never mind the folly of his words. He promised to get us back on track by eliminating pork--well, if every single earmark was pork that would amount to $18B cut, while $700B was just handed out for the bailout, and another $125B every year goes to Iraq. That's like trying to balance your family budget and avoid foreclosure by discontinuing your subscription to the daily newspaper. Speaking of the budget, he promised to have it balanced by the end of his first term, a statement that is either blatantly dishonest or Palinesquely naive. No new taxes but expect a trillion dollar deficit to be cured in four years through his "stimulus" ideas, ideas keenly similar to those of the current President. In the words of Roger Daltrey: "Meet the new boss, same as the old boss". Americans saw that as tripe.<br><br>Barry, I agree with you on all points regarding McCain's campaign. He really had two major decisions that would reflect on his temperment and judgment--VP and campaign manager--and he chose Sarah Palin and the Karl Rove school. They doomed him, but he has no one to blame but himself.<br><br>Tough times ahead, but I really like our chances more now than I did yesterday at this time.
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Posted By: <b>Jim VB</b><p>Dan, <br><br>I don't think Richard Dwyer was scared by cowbells, Beach Boys or Grand Funk Railroad. I think it was this that frightens him to death.<br><br><br><br><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CS9OO0S5w2k" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CS9OO0S5w2k</a><br><br><br><br>(Also Dan, you've got to teach me how to insert videos!)
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Posted By: <b>D. C. Markel</b><p>********************************************* ************************************<br>You know, iv'e read through this post and listened to all views carefully. To me though the most accurate statement so far has come from Dave. He hit it right on the head when he stated:<br><br>>>>> " It's really disappointing just how uneducated MANY of the voters are/were."<br><br>For me this stuck out like a soar thumb more so than iv'e ever witnessed in the past.<br>To see so many voters involved in this race was truly great, but they weren't educated<br>on the issues as they should have been. They were simply followers which is not what an<br>election is supposed to represent.<br><br>Tony A. <br><br>****************************************** ******************************************<br><br> How true and I'll only add that the mainstream media (three major TV networks, CNN, MSNBC and major newspapers) shoulders most of the blame by orchestrating obscurantism with a vengeance in regards to shielding some of Obama's most radical positions and political connections that should have terrified any educated person who embraces our Constitution, human rights, free enterprise and issues pertaining to Israel. The parallels between the failed Soviet Union and their puppet press, Pravda, and the Democratic party with the mainstream media are astounding.<br><br>Sadly, the rank and file voter ignored the above mentioned issues and sold out for his $1200 a year tax cut while their retirement funds will plunge a hundredfold since major corporations will be the primary victims on his economic plan, thus causing stock prices to drop even more and ultimately forcing corporations to move out of the country like Halliburton did and thereby sucking billions of dollars out of our economy. I'm done venting.
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Posted By: <b>David Atkatz</b><p><< I'm taking Obama at his word when he says he wants to hit with tax increases people above such and such and redistribute it to the underprivilaged to help "boost" the economy.>><br><br>And he said this... when?
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Posted By: <b>packs</b><p>Extremely historic day. For a long time America has preached the mantra that you can be whatever you want to be in this country through hard work and perseverance. However, until now every African-American child born who said they wanted to be President when they grew up was looked at with skepticism. Not anymore.
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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>I didn't expect you to have a good answer for this:<br><br>Blacks that voted for Obama - 40% <br>Blacks that voted for McCain- 01% <br><br><br>It's called the taboo word (prejudiced).....<br><br><br><br><br>Read what Dave F said above as he echos my sentiments. Regardless, now it's time to start talking about how it's not Obama's fault that he got left with a mess and can't fix it.....I see it coming now...mark my words. <br><br>I think we all agree we do need a change so we shall see....I am hoping for the best.
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Posted By: <b>jdrum</b><p>The thing is no one knows what to expect because he has no body of work. I for one plan to be very open-minded, he is my President. And for those who say it can't be any worse, well it certainly can. It can certainly be a whole lot better as well. Let the man govern and then make the call.<br><br>If things get too bad, I can go back to clinging to my guns and religion. I've always got that to fall back on. The Republicans have NO ONE to blame but themselves. Not the media, not the young uninformed voters. They need to all stand in front of the mirror today and say, "Who are we?"
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Posted By: <b>Tom Boblitt</b><p>I'll stay away from commenting on the last post.......<br><br>We have what we have. Pretty much the way it was with Bush. That's why we have Obama now and he has 4 years and if he mucks it up, we'll have someone else after that. Hopefully, he's not sitting now figuring out how to get re-elected. I think that too many of our politicians do that on their first day of office instead of trying to figure out how to fix things. <br><br>Everyone can surmise what MIGHT happen with taxes but until it happens no one really knows. So.....we wait. Regardless, they will go up in many cases for all Americans. Many states are considering raising sales taxes to make up for lost revenues and hunting for other revenue streams. Our state is considering raising from 6 to either 7 or 8 percent. That hits everyone and proportionally the lower class more than the upper class obviously.<br><br>It would be good to see someone in government really STOP the spending a little and figure out a way to more effectively spend our money. Ditch Iraq and pull that money back home. I don't know. It seems some are hellbent on increasing revenues through taxes but I still think we pay too much to bloated, inefficient politicans who waste about 40% of it on crap. <br><br>We could have saved about $2 billion on this overblown election that we just witnessed. $1 billon on the presidential election alone. Now THAT's crazy............<br><br>
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Posted By: <b>Steve Murray</b><p>"Jazz Hands" has officially been relegated to second place.
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Posted By: <b>Ryan Christoff</b><p><img src="http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n148/vajra1/337269484.jpg" alt="[linked image]">
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Posted By: <b>gotwins</b><p>Leon, don't know where you got your numbers, but CNN breaks it down as follows by race:<br><br>White (74% of voters) OBAMA 43% MCCAIN 55% <br>African-American (13% of voters) OBAMA 95% MCCAIN 4% <br>Latino (8% of voters) OBAMA 66% MCCAIN 32% <br>Asian (2% of voters) OBAMA 61% MCCAIN 35% <br>Other (3% of voters) OBAMA 65% MCCAIN 31% <br><br>So you can see Obama won all races except white, and convincingly at that. Kerry won over 80% of the black vote in 2004, and Kerry is pretty damn white. If you give Obama Kerry's numbers for black voters, he still wins. <br><br>
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Posted By: <b>Dave F</b><p><br><br>< I'm taking Obama at his word when he says he wants to hit with tax increases people above such and such and redistribute it to the underprivilaged to help "boost" the economy.>> <br><br>"And he said this... when?"<br><br><br>David- your kidding right? Is this the first you've heard of a democrat wanting to tax the rich and give it back to the little guy? It's called redistribution and it was mentioned many times over during the campaign. <br><br><br><br><br>Todd-<br><br>I would imagine those numbers are a little skewed. My belief is Obama got almost all the minority vote, and got most of the white votes of those under 30 years of age. My sister-in-law voted for Obama...she is in her 20's, doesn't have a family yet and believes in "change" and "creative ideas". <br><br>
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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>I agree with Dave on this issue and it should never be about the color of skin....I do honestly believe that....but let me just put your numbers up (I got mine from George Stephenopolous (sp?) last night).....We can let these sink in a bit...<br><br><br>White (74% of voters) OBAMA 43% MCCAIN 55% <br>African-American (13% of voters) OBAMA 95% MCCAIN 4% <br><br>I think enough people are so upset at the economy that there was no way a Republican could win....and that is the way it is. <br><br><br>BTW, You proved my point....take care
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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>I think it is time for people to stop calling Obama a socialist, because it is untrue. <br><br>Earlier this year my wife and I got a $1200 check from the IRS. I can't seem to recall doing anything to deserve that money. So I guess I am now on welfare and it is Bush who is the socialist.<br><br>And if my last statement sounds stupid, calling Obama a socialist is just as dumb. The name calling needs to stop.<br>
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Posted By: <b>Joann</b><p>OK. I'll throw a match into the tinderbox with a half-baked idea I've been kicking around the past week or so. <br><br>How about this statement: It is proper that people with higher incomes pay more taxes because they tend to use more of the services and benefits that taxes create.<br><br>People with higher incomes tend to:<br><br>Travel more. This means flying and the entire NTSB oversight, air traffic control, airport infrastructure that often has a meaningful federal component, all of it. Cruises, with port authorities and navigation information. And, of course, the National Weather Service and NOAA information systems that make sea and air travel possible on a commercial (as opposed to adventure activity) basis.<br><br>They own cars and use them - for travel and every other thing. The Fed highway system. The oversight on auto saftey, mileage and emissions. The fed highway safety system.<br><br>They tend to have much more access to health care than poor people. I know - someone will anecdotally bring up poor people getting "free health care" but the bottom line is that the people that have much freer access get much more benefit from medical research like NIH and CDC, from the hospital and doctor safety oversight apparatus, from the FDA and the Rx drug safety and eval programs.<br><br>They are much more likely to go to and send their children to colleges - often public universities that receive direct and indirect tax dollars. Sure poor people can go through this or that program. But there is simply no debating that many of the large public universities have student bodies that are not drawn largely from the "welfare class". It is from the middle class and higher.<br><br>They are voracious consumers - so here comes all of the consumer product safety regulations, the Customs Bureau, import controls, transportation and trucking oversight. Yes, poor people buy things. But they aren't outfitting a house and a cottage with plasma TV's and couches and appliances and everything else.<br><br>They invest - own stocks and the like. How much does the SEC cost to regulate this area, and how much of that benefit goes to someone that has to use food stamps for peanut butter.<br><br>And on the investment/savings note, the FDIC is no benefit at all to someone that doesn't have a nickel to their name and has never set foot in a bank.<br><br>But poor people use tax-provided benefits too, I know. There is Medicare, food stamps, public transportation, building safety and inspection systems geared to multi-unit housing. <br><br>But can we really say that 3% higher taxes on high income earners represents a total give-down to poor people.<br><br>Like everything else, I don't think it's that simple. No doubt people will have a lot of response to this and arguments as anecdotal as those I've just made. So no, I don't have numbers or data or facts or proof.<br><br>But I do think that there is some merit to the thinking that this is much more complicated than Taxpayer A handing cash dollars to Poor Person B to buy is bottle with.<br><br>Joann
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Posted By: <b>Dave F</b><p><br><br>Barry-<br><br>Was that $1200 check you got not a tax credit on the money you earned and already had given the government?
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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Dave- it was given to me under the name of a stimulus package, or something to that effect.<br><br>So if Obama decides to implement some similar stimulus packages, why is that socialism?
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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>I got a note yesterday saying I am getting $900 back. I think that was a stupid plan regardless of the party affiliation. Stupid Stupid Stupid.....<br><br>You are right about what is going on right this moment vis a vis socialism. I am not for it. I am for a Democratic nation run under the Capitalism doctrine. That means those who work the hardest and are smartest will prosper and those who don't, won't, as much.......(I think that's how to say it?).....I am not for enabling those in the system to stay there....I am for teaching folks to fish instead of giving them one.
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Posted By: <b>John K</b><p> The GOP is wrong on (pretty much) all the issues: trickle down (doesn't work), global warming (it's real), the war (ask Dick Army), big oil (we should have hybrids all over the place), the environment (helicopter wolf hunting!), education (No Child's Behind is Left), deregulation (Greed is, after all, one of the Seven Deadly Sins), the politics of division (e.g., McCain/Palin/Rove).<br> One of the first things George Bush said when running was, "I'm a uniter, not a divider." Divide and conquer is how the GOP runs itself. <br> To you rich guys, you'll survive with a little bit less. You won't miss any meals or have to turn down the thermostat, and it might even make you feel good to see more Americans doing better.
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Posted By: <b>Matt Goebel</b><p>Still gives me goosebumps
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Posted By: <b>jdrum</b><p>JoAnn,<br><br><br><br>A lot of those items are taxed. The more voracious a consumer you are, the more sales tax you pay. The more gas you burn, the more gas tax you pay. And I for one, pay to send my daughter to college.<br><br><br><br>Is the argument: Person A uses the system better than Person B for personal gain, so Person A should pay more for the system?<br><br>I wonder how we all would like our goods and services priced on our ability to pay for them?<br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br>Jeff<br><br>< br><br>
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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Leon- Obama is an American and believes in capitalism. What free rides is he giving to whom?
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Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p><img src="http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y43/-marhari-/MoreCowbell.jpg" alt="[linked image]">
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Posted By: <b>gotwins</b><p>I guess I don't understand your point then. 19 out of every 20 blacks voted for Obama. In 2004, about 17 out of every 20 blacks voted for Kerry. 17 out of 20 and Obama still wins. No way a Republican could win with those stacked numbers of black voters? Tell that to Kerry.<br><br>Jo Ann,I agree with much of what you say, and you say it well.
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Posted By: <b>David Atkatz</b><p><< It's called redistribution and it was mentioned many times over during the campaign.>><br><br>It was mentioned, alright.<br><br>By McCain and Palin. Not Obama.<br><br>Just where is he going to be handing money over to "the little guy."<br><br>Taxes need to be raised because we are fighting two wars, and the country is way past its eyeballs in debt.<br><br>(BTW, you can consider a tax cut for everybody to be "redistribution," too. Money would be taken from your children, grandchildren, and great-grandchildren, who will have to pay the National Debt, and be given to you. Sound good?)
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Posted By: <b>Dave F</b><p><br><br>Barry-<br><br>I don't have a problem in the world if Obama wants to give a tax break or tax credit to EVERYONE. I don't believe that is at all socialism, it's just getting to keep a percentage more of your own money. That's a different ballgame than saying the "rich" should be hit hard with taxes and everyone else gets breaks. To me that is not the american way. The American way of capatilism wasn't built on the foundation that a 35 year old that started up his own computer internet security company and makes $450k a year should have to give an extra 3% to the guy that was a complete jack off in society, screwed around and dropped out of high school, has a few years of drugs and alcohol abuse under his belt and works 25 hours a week at some fast food joint doing dishes, never looking to better himself.
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Posted By: <b>shane leonard</b><p>I hope Texas separates itself from the US. We are self sufficient in every area and don't need the assistance from the government. A sad day for sure, especially for those who are self employed. Financially the US needs change, but I think this is going to be a cluster F. <br><br>Shane Leonard
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Posted By: <b>David Atkatz</b><p>I couldn't agree more strongly!<br><br>(And take the rest of the Confederacy with you, while you're at it.)
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Posted By: <b>Dave F</b><p><br><br>David-<br><br>Your right. Taxes should be raised to pay for this mess. But they should be raised across the board..not just this crap about the "rich". For one, that won't happen anyway...taxes will be raised right down through the middle economy, Obama just failed to mention that.
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Posted By: <b>packs</b><p>misunderstanding
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Posted By: <b>peter ullman</b><p>i would also love to see Texas separate itself from the us...maybe become part of mexico. you guys could abandon the us dollar and implement the amero!
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Posted By: <b>Tom Boblitt</b><p>so you weren't proud to be an American yesterday? Wow................<br><br>
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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>I think a thread on politics at this time isn't a bad thing. BUT, you are not going to be able remain anonymous and be able to argue..Nothing personal...thanks much
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Posted By: <b>Dave F</b><p><br>"(And take the rest of the Confederacy with you, while you're at it.)"<br><br><br><br>Oh that's wonderful David. And clearly shows how your educated enough to be voting. I'll agree though...as throughout history, the electoral votes have always went the way of the Democrats in the north and liberal California west and the Rublican convservative vote has always relied on the south and heartland where are "guns and religon" still mean something.
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Posted By: <b>jdrum</b><p>Everyone south of the Mason-Dixon line doesn't think that the National Anthem should be changed to Freebird! Most of us are hard working tax paying Americans like everyone else. <img src="/images/happy.gif" alt="happy.gif">
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Posted By: <b>David Atkatz</b><p>Dave, how long has this country had a proportional income tax? Since income tax began.<br><br>Thw well-to-do have always been asked to contribute proportionately more. Now it's just a matter of fine-tuning those proportions. Sounds pretty American to me.
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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Dave- hopefully that is not how the plan will work. I'm going to hope that the extra revenue generated by the tax increase won't go to the street corner wino so he can buy a couple of more bottles of Thunderbird.<br><br>Perhaps a better use of the money could be put towards more free day care centers so that mothers who work don't have to worry about their kids; or perhaps some mortgage relief to families about to go into foreclosure; or maybe somehow, some way making it a little easier for people to get health care.<br><br>I don't know if this is what will happen, but I would like to just suggest that there are worthwhile ways to use that extra tax revenue. Bush used our taxes to fight an unnecessary war, and I am going to go out on a limb and say Obama will find ways to use that money more wisely.<br><br>Nobody is for giving away free money to people who don't want to help themselves.
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Posted By: <b>Dave F</b><p><br>Packs- whoever you are.<br><br>I'm confused as to why your confused. I didn't say everyone who wasn't rich dropped out of high school and was a loser. I also didn't say everyone who was rich was 35 year old and owned a internet securities company. Get your head out of the sand.
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Posted By: <b>David Atkatz</b><p><<Everyone south of the Mason-Dixon line doesn't think that the National Anthem should be changed to Freebird! Most of us are hard working tax paying Americans like everyone else. happy.gif>><br><br>I know. I was just answering an absurdity with an absurdity.<br><br>(Although I <i>have</i> always felt that NY and CA should secede.)
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Posted By: <b>James Todd</b><p> The Republican party is heavily Christian. Christian doctrine states that those who have more should give more. However, on the issue of tax increases for the rich, Republicans are against it. Doesn't that go against the Christian fundamentals much of the party is based on?
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Posted By: <b>David Atkatz</b><p><<Oh that's wonderful David. And clearly shows how your educated enough to be voting. I'll agree though...as throughout history, the electoral votes have always went the way of the Democrats in the north and liberal California west and the Rublican convservative vote has always relied on the south and heartland where are "guns and religon" still mean something.>><br><br><br><br>Now <i>that's</i> a paragraph written by a well-educated person!<br><br><br><br>Aside from the spelling and grammatical errors, you really should check your history concerning Southern votes. You can start by Googling "the solid South."
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Posted By: <b>jdrum</b><p>NOt advocating any position here but, isn't 25% of 3X more than 25% of X?
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Posted By: <b>Tom Boblitt</b><p>delineates that those making $250K should tithe 15% whereas those below tithe 10%. Pretty much advocates a 10% flat tithe...........
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Posted By: <b>James Todd</b><p>I'm not saying its a great plan or that I agree with it. I was just having fun with the guns and religion comment earlier. No offense to anyone.
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Posted By: <b>Matt Goebel</b><p>I usually don't like to get involved in the political threads, but I hate to have words put into my mouth. I said NOTHING about how I felt yesterday. I can say I'm proud of one of my kids for something they've achieved and it doesn't mean I wasn't proud of them before. <br><br>Policies aside - this was an historic event!
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Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p><img src="http://internetstinkslikebeer.files.wordpress.com/2008/04/cowbell.jpg" alt="[linked image]">
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Posted By: <b>Richard Dwyer</b><p>The truth about Proposition 8 is that Gay Marriage is wrong. Being a teacher, I was shocked when our own union gave the opposition $3 million dollars to defeat proposition 8. They told untruths to get the public to vote no. Supporters said children would be taught about Gay Marriage. (True statement, 3rd grade health)<br>Opposers said they wouldn't, and it was shameful to use children to say they would. Opposers said that gays were being discriminated against. That may be true, but I don't care about immoral individuals.<br><br>All the states were looking at California, and I'm proud our state shot down Gay Marriage. Yes, I was a little extreme about Bubba and his friends, but that's what would eventually happen if Gay Marriage was allowed. <br><br>I believe in the Bible, and it clearly states that Gay Marriage is wrong.
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Posted By: <b>Tom Boblitt</b><p>
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Posted By: <b>David Atkatz</b><p><<I believe in the Bible, and it clearly states that Gay Marriage is wrong. >><br><br>Then hold to your beliefs, and don't marry a man.<br><br>But the Constitution clearly states that there can be <i>no</i> official national religion. And our laws cannot be forced to conform to the Christian Bible. (Or the Koran, or the Bhagavad Gita, or... )
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Posted By: <b>Ken McMillan</b><p>I find it really stupid that the media is making such a big deal about Obama being black. So what!!!!! He is a human being and he sounds intelligent with some good ideas. He didn't play the race card and didn't need to. Let him do the job and forget about race.<br><br>Kmac
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Posted By: <b>Jim VB</b><p>Richard, <br><br>If you are a teacher, you are smart enough to know that the Bible was written 2000+ years ago as a collection of parables. It is NOT a scientific tome. Learn from the stories. Don't take them literally. <br><br>If you do, then the punishment for homosexuality must be the death penalty. <br><br>Leviticus 20:13 "If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives." <br><br><br>Working a card show on the Sabbath? Death!<br><br>Exodus 35:1-2 On six days work may be done, but the seventh day shall be sacred to you as the sabbath of complete rest to the LORD. Anyone who does work on that day shall be put to death." <br><br>And touching a football or eating a BLT? Well.. maybe not death, but you aren "clean" anymore. <br><br>Leviticus 11:7-8 "which does indeed have hoofs and is cloven-footed, but does not chew the cud and is therefore unclean for you. [8] Their flesh you shall not eat, and their dead bodies you shall not touch; they are unclean for you."<br><br>Leviticus 11:24-25 "Such is the uncleanness that you contract, that everyone who touches their dead bodies shall be unclean until evening, [25] and everyone who picks up any part of their dead bodies shall wash his garments and be unclean until evening." <br><br>
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Posted By: <b>jdrum</b><p>"Dave, how long has this country had a proportional income tax? Since income tax began. <br><br><br><br>Thw well-to-do have always been asked to contribute proportionately more. Now it's just a matter of fine-tuning those proportions. Sounds pretty American to me."<br><br><br><br>Change! Maybe what we need is change! <img src="/images/happy.gif" alt="happy.gif">
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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>So being gay is immoral because the Bible says so? Yikes.
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Posted By: <b>Anthony S.</b><p><br> *** searches desperately for guy drinking a beer and eating popcorn emoticon ***
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Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p><object width="425" height="350" data="http://www.youtube.com/v/LrllCZw8jiM"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/LrllCZw8jiM"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><!--[if IE]><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/LrllCZw8jiM"type="application/x-shockwave-flash"wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350" /><![endif]--></object>
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Posted By: <b>Steve Murray</b><p><img src="http://209.85.12.234/1672/27/emo/popcorn1.gif" alt="[linked image]"><br><br><img src="http://vbbc.forumotion.com/users/17/23/61/smiles/136179.gif" alt="[linked image]">
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Posted By: <b>Jim VB</b><p><<So being gay is immoral because the Bible says so? Yikes.>><br><br>Hey Barry, it's a tough book. What can you say? <br><br><br>(You've been living in NYC too long. Once you get out of there, you find the Troglodyte population is alive and thriving, even on the west coast.)<br><br><br>
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Posted By: <b>Tom Boblitt</b><p>so everyone who lives their life according to the Bible is a troglodyte......<br>
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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Isn't there a section of the Bible that preaches tolerance?
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Posted By: <b>jdrum</b><p>Don't dare bring your Conestoga south. I've heard reports of swarms of angry Bible thumpers.<br><br>Edit: To be clear, this is T-I-C (Tongue in Cheek) statement. You know, it's part of the Foot-In-Mouth family.
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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>I would be remiss if I didn't add that Dan seems to have the pulse of this long thread down pat. He already knows where it's heading. <img src="/images/happy.gif" alt="happy.gif">
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Posted By: <b>Jim VB</b><p>Absolutely not. I didn't say that. <br><br>In my opinion, people who exhibit that level of intolerance toward others do start to inch closer to that level. <br><br><br>(If Richard is truly living his life according to the Bible, shouldn't he be required to put homosexuals to death?)<br><br><br>It's a guidebook, Tom, not a lawbook.
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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>You know my neighborhood, Brooklyn Heights, is the world headquarters of the Jehovah's Witnesses. That's a fact!
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Posted By: <b>David Atkatz</b><p><<It's a guidebook, Tom, not a lawbook.>><br><br>Amen, brother.
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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>My wife, the good Church of Christ member, said a Jehovah's Witnesses came to our door yesterday. She ran out the back.... I am ok with anyone's religion I just don't want it pushed on me....
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Posted By: <b>Jim VB</b><p><<I am ok with anyone's religion I just don't want it pushed on me....>><br><br>I agree 100%. I also don't want it pushed on our government. <br>
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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>We are in agreement.
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Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>less bigotry and more cowbell<br><br><object width="425" height="350" data="http://www.youtube.com/v/Y6c3emqC6aw"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/Y6c3emqC6aw"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><!--[if IE]><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/Y6c3emqC6aw"type="application/x-shockwave-flash"wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350" /><![endif]--></object>
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