I wonder how that corresponds to the overall percentage of graded cards sold?

Throw in the modern serial numbered and other others and Beckett starts fairing MUCH worse, to say nothing of the pristine scandal.

I wish I could just buy that card and turn around and demand that it be regraded as Authentic.

Ricky Y

no mention of dick towel, this guy could take out any pen/ink mark, most wrinkles and creases that didnt break paper, and the gum/ wax stain on the back, he would do stacks and stacks of the bowmans, the 51's and 52's...i heard he done thousands....i remember someone saying his mantle count was up to 250+ fixed, and this was 2003.....

Nice job by those guys! They have uncovered 1.8 million of the 1 Billion out there. Good luck finding the rest.

Well BO did uncover a ton more just yesterday and today...

Some of them trimmed so thin that it's inconceivable they passed authentication. PSA seems to be hypnotized by Moser's phony rough-cut borders, to the extent that they won't even measure the cards. In most cases, the original card (typically 2 grades lower) is the FAR better looking card.

Their randomly/incorrectly assigned numerical grading has caused the current hobby to become so twisted and backwards, with lots more cardboard on the cutting-room floor. :(

You said it...

IMO the vast majority of card doctoring over the years has been on cards purchased raw, which never will be traced unless TPGs release their submission records which they never will do publicly. And even for cards purchased graded, the universe is just too big to be able to find most of them.

We literally have seen the tip of the iceberg, from an overall hobby perspective.

100% agree !! TPG will never be done by computers the customer base and grading company’s want crack outs, re submissions....it’s all a gamble sometimes worth thousand to the seller and worth millions to the company. Computerized modern grading of cards will never happen imo
Will be interesting to see what happens....

Imagine the registry guys trying to replace all the colored, altered, trimmed cards in their sets. Mission impossible.

That happens in a couple years when the card doctors admit that “all” their submissions over the last 10-15 years contained alterations. Then the $@.8 million becomes $180 million.

How late till the graded card market tanks? Next bad recession or will numbers be much lower this time next year in regards to this ? I’m betting on the latter.

Anybody that doesn't realize there are WAY WAY more card doctors that have not been pointed out and that they all have been submitting loads of altered cards for the last 10-20+ years are clue less.:eek::)

I still wonder why so many think PSA was just doing a horrible job.:confused:

Agree you’re 100% correct

I think it’s more so people don’t care or are covering because they’re holding or pumping/selling PSA slabbed cards. To those guys All that’s cared about is money, sad but factual.

The card entire industry is forever tainted...especially PSA. the most trusted name in sports cards is in on the biggest swindle America has ever seen. It's bigger than Bernie Madoff, IMHO. My friend who is a Producer at Net Flix was asking me questions about the FAKE CARDS SCAM (as he called it) at our weekly poker game. We had 600K already raised for the project in 5 minutes after they heard what kind of wool has been pulled over the sheoples eyes.

The Bernie Madoff scandal was somewhere around $50 billion. Do you really think this is bigger than Madoff? I'm not so sure about that.

If Madoff wasn't a PSA fan, you may be right.:eek:

Q: Why is Bernie Madoff like a slabbed card?

A: Because they are both entombed.

Yes, I believe that HE honestly believes it. He has stated in many posts that he will never purchase a card again, the whole hobby is tainted, nobody can be trusted, etc. It's obvious he his not a collector and just comes here for the drama at this point. If you aren't collecting there really seems to be no other reason to come to this forum multiple times a day. If there was something in life that got me so worked up, I guess I would find something better to do with my time.

Chuck has to make up for all the people saying it is a small percentage of cards that are altered. IMHO they are WAY more delusional than Chuck. Maybe he is passionate about cards and the reason he posts about the fraud constantly.

I know I am baffled beyond belief how so many are trying to minimize what is going on. I do get their reason though. I sincerely hope karma is a real thing.:)

They minimize what is happening because they’re profiting off selling/pushing PSA Slabbed cards or they’re holding thousands of dollars of PSA slabbed cards in Registry sets or as investment hordes.

This has long time been a major cause of why this Sh#T continues...we have all known what has been going on for over 25 years yet it’s always played downed and Hushed Off. To many people are making money, AH’s Dealers, eBay Sellers, and collectors a like. They only care about money and greed. I still think something is being worked out to accept some form of altering as restorative legitimacy....such a farce and more Bull To The Sh+T

+1

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Worked out between whom, law enforcement and PWCC, between PSA and its current customers?

That may all be well and good in regard to how THESE players choose to view things. However, it will have no bearing on how the market (i.e., future buyers) view it. In the end, a card is worth what an informed buyer is willing to pay. And if some day (hopefully sooner rather than later), a buyer will be able know what has been done to the card not via terminology (i.e., alteration versus restoration) but instead by the actual work done, the price that buyer will be willing to pay will indicate his/her "acceptance" of any such restorative legitimacy.

Well said...

But you neglected to mention the biggest money-maker of all... PSA.

Just imagine what might happen to them if even 1/4 of the collecting public knew about this. Right now, I’d estimate that less than 5% are even aware. I asked around at the National, and roughly 1 out of 20 people were aware of the Card Scandal or Slabgate. It wasn’t a scientific survey by any means... but it does demonstrate how few people are clued-in to the problems.

Of those few who are aware, the vast majority remain silent for the financial reasons stated above. And the sleuths uncovering the massive fraud are reprimanded/minimized (by Sloan, Orlando and all of the PSA apologists who claim that under 1% of numerically graded cards are altered). Just say nothing and it will go away! Even here, it seems like there are less than 30 people who regularly express outrage, or post on it honestly and objectively.

So unless the word spreads a lot further (or the Law cracks down hard) it will just be status quo. They’ve gotta keep their gravy train from derailing at all costs.

I think the registry guys will show plenty of acceptance of the restorative legitimacy of all of this. They have to protect their investments.

I don't comment too often on all of this because I find most of my opinions continually get posted before I can get them posted myself. I feel like PSA is a huge part of the problem, PWCC knew what was going on and was complicit in the whole thing and I hope the FBI do bring charges on someone. I wish more collectors knew about the scandal also. I agree there are way too few who know anything about it.

As long as these registry guys are buying and selling only amongst themselves, they will have the ability to have current market pricing accept the concept of restorative legitimacy. But to hold value new buyers will need to enter the hobby. And it is THOSE NEW BUYERS, people who have no loyalty to any grading method and no horse in the race as to whether currently graded cards hold value, who will determine future market prices.

I think you're right Corey and I hope these New Buyers do bring down the inflated prices we've been seeing for so many years now. I don't wish doom on the hobby, but a correction would be nice.

Yes sir exactly !

I had read prior to the National some were talking about handing out papers/information about the scandal to those waiting in line and to those already inside. Did anyone do that or see anyone else doing that while there?

I'm the same. I am fully aware of the problem and I post regularily on 2 FB sites I frequent but those 2 sites might just be a majority of members here?
One site I was banned/kicked off of after I posted the Hitler parody.

Imo, just because some don't frequently post about it doesn't mean they aren't aware of it.

I had written PSA and PWCC off long before this scandal hit and my reasons weren't even about the doctoring but mainly due to the inconsistency I seen with PSA and the questionable practices I seen from PWCC.
This scandal just cemented/confirmed my reasons/thoughts and I for one, no matter what, will ever get a card graded with PSA nor will I ever purchase or consign any cards through PWCC ever again.

Which makes me think that someone should create an altered/conserved card registry with before and after photos, slab numbers etc...even though people can still crack and resubmit would still be helpful...

i agree and what would also be invaluable for a new/existing TPG'er would be a database of known original, unaltered examples of every card that can be submitted for grading...this way thickness, size, card stock quality/color could be known and called upon for comparison.

Not sure if this is even feasible financially anymore????

[QUOTE=irv;1907782]I had read prior to the National some were talking about handing out papers/information about the scandal to those waiting in line and to those already inside. Did anyone do that or see anyone else doing that while there?

I (for one) did not see even a hint of it. Was looking around for any sign of Flyers, Signs or the Moser/Orlando/Huigens Cards that were produced. But never saw a thing. Guess it just goes to show what a small minority we are within the hobby.

Did anyone else here witness any calling out of PWCC, Beckett or PSA?

[QUOTE=perezfan;1907821]I doubt any quantity were actually made. I removed the Topps logo and printed up a few blank back versions I sent fellow members for free.

Folks can accuse me of thinking the sky is falling, but here's where I'm at.

1. I believe [emoji817] that PSA's numerical grades are BS and assigned preferentially to big customers.

2. Seeing a PSA numerical grade gives me zero confidence a card has not been altered.

3. Seeing a PSA/DNA authentication of an autograph gives me know confidence the autograph is authentic.

I think it would take new management and a lot of transparency to ever get me back on board.

Jason Schwartz
Western Springs, IL

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you're probably right, I stand corrected. Not even in my wildest dreams do I think it's 50 Billion but, who really knows? This "musical chairs" has been going on ad nauseam for 20 years now. You would agree the magnitude is HUGE?

I think that's what Peter Nash is doing on BO.

Me three.

Yes, I do believe the magnitude is huge. I don't think it's a matter of just a few bad cards.

I agree Barry. Of course it's huge. It's been going on rampantly for 15+ years.

In 1996 Daniel Desmond said he had restored thousands of cards in the VCBC 7 article he was quoted in. We know he is still doing it today, a mere 23 years later.

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=270622

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=253875
.

And why not, it's steady work and the pay is good, and there seems to be no risk.

I would think anyone who has the FBI knocking on their door would disagree with that statement and say there is risk. Now I know no one has been arrested yet, no civil lawsuits or death sentences, but I suspect having the FBI investigating your life cannot be pleasant.

On pg 47 of the article, DD states that "the sale of restored cards, priced and sold as restored cards could create a whole new market. It would give the average collector a chance to own the high end cards in beautiful condition for a fraction of the normal cost, cards that they could never otherwise afford."

The problem with this is that any card that gets restored is not going to be sold as a restored card, nor will it be priced as a restored card.

On the same page, DD also said that PSA was thinking of getting him to work as a consultant for them, but in the end it just didn't work out. Well, I think that would have been a great idea. PSA should have worked with all the best card doctors in the hobby. It would only make them better at detecting restorations.

If I had made millions doctoring cards, I wouldn't find paying a little restitution a huge inconvenience. We'll see if it ends up being any more than that. And most of these guys are smart enough to have stayed under the radar anyhow. I doubt anyone is knocking on their doors.

I would love to be wrong about this, of course. They all should be punished severely. But it's baseball cards.

At least one card doctor graded for PSA for a while, some time ago.

I firmly believe that, in the future and perhaps near future, all cards from now and retroactively will be able to be identified-- and the hobby and collectors will be able to deal with that.

The idea that altered cards will remain undetected (except for those who don't want them examined) is false.

Though, duly note that there have been instances where cards have been restored, represented and graded as such. With the means to identify all altered cards, this may be a wave of the future.

i beg to differ!

I’m not as familiar with the FBI as an attorney like you may be, but they don’t strike me as an organization set up to play the role of mediator and work nicely to help get some restitution back for people. In fact Mastro and Allen went to jail and never even had to pay a penny back! I’m kind of thinking there has to be more to this but what do I know?

I don't know about that. If I were a betting person I would say restitution might come into play in the final punishment (if there is any). But then again, what do I know? I am just a layperson running a chatboard.

I hope you're right...

But it will never happen if PSA is still ruling the roost in the TPG world. A new better company will need to emerge, to render PSA (and it's tens of thousands of mis-graded cards) obsolete. PSA would NEVER take the responsibility to do so themselves, as evidenced by recent statements from Sloan and Orlando.

Obviously a big "ask", but hope it can happen.