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i dont have any money but a gentlemans bet it is. |
Define "Major hammer".
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Why do you think they don't try to reclaim the items? I thought I read somewhere that they don't want to admit they lost them.
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Because they cant prove they were stolen.
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Of course they could prove they were stolen--if they wanted to.
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Proving that they once owned them is not evidence of theft, it suggests it probably took place, but it is not proof. If you know something the FBI didn't uncover during their 3 year investigation with the NYPL I am sure they would love to hear about it.
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Nonsense. If the Library claims them, it would be incumbent upon the present owner to produce a chain of ownership proving that they were legally removed from the Library.
The Library, for whatever its reasons are, however, declines to claim them. |
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Untrue. The library would have to present reasonable evidence of ownership and theft. If they cannot make this case to a reasonable standard, the current possessor/owner is required by law to present nothing at all. |
Proof of prior possession by the library, along with no evidence of legal possession--i.e., legal removal from the library--is evidence of theft.
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Of course not. Proof of legal possession. Proof that the material was legally obtained from the library before being sold on.
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Everybody who's ever bought anything with a library stamp on it, has a lot of explaining to do, I guess.
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If the monies went back into the libraries coffers, I don't really think it is..........and it would be impossible after all these years to prove otherwise. As for the contention, nothing was ever deaccessioned, I think that's something else you can never prove. As much as you like to believe, an actual deaccession (I'm sure I'm spelling it wrong every time I spell it) marking is more rare then not. Most don't bother with it when they sell stuff off. Yes, it's the NYPL, they hold themselves to a higher standard. I think that's a speculative assertion. |
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David, your writings make me think you are sympathetic to Nash's issues. Forget what he is targeting and going after for a minute. What are your thoughts on him? |
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Fine, when it's a clear cut case in a reasonable amount of time. But by your logic, a library can sell something in a sidewalk sale in 1960, realize it's worth a fortune in 2013, and reclaim that item back into their holdings, based on a stamp that it once belonged to them. |
In the expensive fine art world, they say keep your sales receipt because it turns out to be stolen, you legally get your money back from the seller. As an item may have been stolen a long time earlier, the seller may in turn get his money back from the person he bought it from. And so on down the line. Stolen items has long been an issue in the art world, and many buyers will expect you to demonstrate the provenance and legal ownership of a Picasso.
If an item was stolen, you can't legally buy or sell it. You may have paid $5,000, but you don't legally own it. This is why, as a buyer, you should be confident the item you are buying wasn't stolen. Stolen items do exist in the baseball hobby market. I have no knowledge of the NYPL and its practices and if David says they've never gotten rid of stuff I have no reason to doubt him, but other libraries, schools and even museums do sometimes get rid of extra stuff. Museums have sales, often to get rid of extra stuff or because they're changing the museum's focus. |
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And said material is always clearly marked as such precisely for the reasons cited above. |
One thing is the legal owner has to object for there to be a legal objection. Practically speaking. If your hometown library doesn't care anymore that you didn't return a worn Danielle Steele paperback forty years ago, then the library doesn't care.
Now, on the other hand, if it was a Picasso oil painting instead of a worn Danielle Steele paperback, they likely will care. |
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I agree the Danielle Steele paperback was an extreme example. I didn't even say hardback.
That's why I went back added the Picasso example. But my point was if the legal owner doesn't object, then the legal owner doesn't object. Nothing an uninvolved third party can do about that. You or I can't sue on the NYPL's behalf. |
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Because it's true. |
I bought a framed print at a garage sale that had our local library's markings on the back along with a pouch and a card that was last stamped in 1961...believe it or not you could at one time check out artwork from the library. I was curious about this item and if it still belonged to the library so I called them and they said they haven't checked out artwork for years. There was absolutely nothing stamped on this item showing it was deaccessioned.
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So? The last guy to take it out never returned it.
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You could be right...I don't think it's even a point worth arguing. Clearly there are items missing from both the HOF and the NYPL that were stolen. I don't believe any of those baseball papers or photos were ever deaccessioned. I do however believe both of those institutions are not following up on it because they don't value it enough to go after it. They get stuff for free, they aren't going to pay lawyers to get it back. If the FBI gets it back for them they'll probably take it, but I doubt they spend 1/100th the time that we do thinking about the lost items.
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You're absolutely right, there, Dan!
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I am of the opinion that the hof and nypl value 20k to 50k autographs enough to want them back. i also believe they dont want the publicity that goes along with admitting that these items slipped through their fingers, especially since new donors would want to be assured that their donated items actually stay in the museum or library.
So that is the reason why they dont go after them in my opinion. There is a price to pay in the form of bad publicity that they dont want to pay. Otherwise it wouldn't cost them anything to just admit they aren't interested in getting the items back, but they don't admit that. You can't get a statement out of them and that is per their damage control plan of defense. |
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I truly believe it's much more of a money, lawyer, hassle issue for items they do not value the same way we do. They don't have to pay a dime for the FBI to do their job and if they get them back, they'll take them, but they obviously aren't going to use any of their own resources to do it. |
Gee, it really does sound like a novel. Someone should write it an expose on the librarys and the HOF.:eek:
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Along the lines of what Travis said, I've heard where art galleries don't like to let it to become public that something was stolen, because it might make other hesitant to consign.
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Personally, I believe Leon did a good job by posting this. With over 4400+ views, it has brought a lot of attention to Mr. Nash and his website, and thus, a lot more people reading it.
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http://luckeycards.com/lifson1.jpg http://luckeycards.com/lifson2.jpg http://luckeycards.com/lifson3.jpg |
Leon, did they ever arrest him?:confused:
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Leon, please post all cease and desist orders that have been sent to you over the years. Do you consider all of them fair? You probably don't consider any of them fair. They are free to send, don't cost anything and prove nothing. Posting a cease and desist letter as proof of anything is pretty lame as you and many website owners get these from time to time. I don't care if you post it but it's not an indictment of anything as hundreds of website owners including you would have to be considered guilty and we all know these letters are as common as toilet paper, and are always printed and sent first before anything else because of the non-cost involved, hoping the website will copitulate.
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Travis, the cease and desist letter is not an indictment of anything, you're right. That's what the judgment for fraud in the amount of $760,227.08 and the included warrant for arrest are for, those are the indictments against Mr. Nash.
You can't ignore the facts simply because they don't fit your narrative. _____________ Mark Fox |
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Ken |
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______________ Mark Fox |
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Travis- I have received a lot of cease and desist letters. Your are correct, it goes with running a forum. Forget about the Cease and Desist I posted. How about the other two actions signed by judges? And since posting those I have learned that Nash STILL OWES Frazier close to $400,000. Yes, that is hundreds of thousands. Also, I found out he owes Lifson at least $100,000 but probably more. How can you buddy up with this guy and defend him when he is such a fraudster. And btw, my guess is that this thread gets more interesting soon. So please respond about those two actions Travis, there will probably be more coming.... Stay tuned.... |
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___________ Mark Fox |
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when people dont like what is presented on haulsofshame because it includes their buddies is embarrassing, they always try to go after the messenger. |
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Travis I can only comment on my own experience with the NYPL. When I saw an item years back on ebay with a "NYPL" stamp, I was concerned that it was unlawfully removed from the NYPL. I contacted counsel at the NYPL. He replied to me and indicated that the NYPL had reviewed its records and that the item had been indeed deaccessioned by the library, but somehow the proper stampings had not been entered in the book. As such, that particular item was not stolen from the NYPL. He also added that if I came across other items where provenance was questioned, I could contact them again. I did not get the impression that things were "swept under the rug". It was quite the contrary and that he was indeed interested in being advised of items that had been taken unlawfully from the library. Max |
thank you for relaying your experience. it's always good to hear all sides.
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