Do you think the Innocence Project has all the time and resources in the world? Your posts are really borderline now and I'm growing concerned. I have made every effort to show you that the people arrested and the people convicted and the people exonerated are disproportionately African American. That makes all your supposed crime stats moot. In Minnesota, where Philando Castile was shot dead for no reason, 47 percent of all arrests were African Americans. Do you know how much of the population African Americans make up? 7 percent. Are you seriously suggesting 7 percent of the population are in fact committing nearly 50 percent of all crime? Or is it possible that the 7 percent of the population are held to a different standard than the other 93 percent?

And I have made every effort to show you that majority of violent crimes are committed by African Americans. Therefore, given that fact, doesn't it stand to reason that they would be arrested and convicted in disproportionate numbers? How hard is that one to figure out???? :rolleyes:

Let's just agree to disagree and move on.

You haven't made any effort to do anything but dismiss racism.

"Are you seriously suggesting 7 percent of the population are in fact committing nearly 50 percent of all crime? Or is it possible that the 7 percent of the population are held to a different standard than the other 93 percent?"

Of course not. It would have to be lower than that, unless there aren't any repeat offenders. Personal actions and attitude over the course of time don't come into play at all, right?

And you haven't made any effort to do anything but have all admit it is ONLY due to racism.

and you are apparently ignorant of black culture in inner cities and poor communities. crime is celebrated, education dismissed as 'for nerds and white people" heroes are Scarface, drug dealers, rappers who celebrate criminal activity and pro athletes. Those who fail to become the latter have grown up in a culture that tells them that to fit in and be part of the group they should embrace crime, selling drugs, stealing...etc Parents are more likely to be separated with no father interaction than any other group, black parents are also the least likely to take a direct interest in their child's education, more likely to overspend on vanity objects over groceries and spend the highest % of income on a vehicle than any other demographic. that's not good.

when you make up under 15% of the population at large but comprise 37% of the prison population, either you think we live in 1970's South Africa, or there is a cultural problem at work in the black community. My friend LP and I were talking last night about this and he said it's sad how the culture of the black community has fallen over the last 20 years to where it is now.

I,personally, think it's what happens when govt tells an entire group of people that they don't have to perform, they will save them a certain number of slots just because of their race. (not to mention the impact of generational welfare. nobody taught these families how to fish, they just kept giving them fish)


but go ahead, call us all racists from your lily white ivory tower because of what some sheltered academic sociologist told you. (hint, it isn't science no matter how hard they try to pretend it is)

You guys are unbelievable. What do you have against admitting we have a racism problem in this country we've never overcome? Do you think there is something shameful about recognizing a failure? Because I happen to think the opposite. It is shameful to ignore a problem like systemic racism. Do you disregard the Civil Rights movement as some big to do? Or can you at least admit there was a problem then, even if you won't admit it now?

You sit there and talk about disproportionate numbers when it comes to arrests and convictions, so let me give you another disproportionate number. The national high school graduation rate for black males is 47% compared to nearly 75% for white males. Why aren't they graduating? Are the schools racist too forcing them to drop out? What do you think happens to them? It's the same thing happens to the white male drop outs - a majority of them end up in the prison system. No, Packs, we don't deny that racism exists. All we're saying is that they are a product of their own decisions (everybody is for that matter). Nobody is making them drop out. Their dropout rate has nothing to do with racism, but their dropout rate has a lot to do with why the arrest and conviction rates are disproportionate.

You're entitled to your opinion, just as we are. Here's the difference. Your opinion is based on your feelings. Our opinion is based on facts.

Paint with a broader brush why don't you? I've been discussing police and their attitudes towards minorities because that is precisely what Kaepernick is protesting. What you're talking about is plain old geriatric racism and I would prefer not to hear anymore of it so I'll simply ignore you now.

Living in a city where the population is about 48/40/12 of white/black/other, it's an interesting perspective. If you talk about the root cause of these problems with working black FAMILIES, you find the views similar to what you expressed above. If you discuss this with single black parents or kids from single black parents, it's runs more along the lines of "packs" comments (maybe a 'pack' mentality?). Though where it starts to diverge again is around their views of education. Not counting the typical bobble-head fashioned responses you get from those illuminated by Duke (remembering the Duke 88), of course. ;)

In the NBA, 77% of all fouls are called on African Americans. Therefore, NBA officials must be racists, right? Oh wait, 77% of the NBA is made up of African Americans. Do poorer people drive crappier cars which in turn get pulled over more often? Most certainly.

And in one quick google search I found stats that disagree with yours. This site has crime stats for Minnesota broken down by race. Go to page 63. https://dps.mn.gov/divisions/bca/bca...Crime-Book.pdf

It lists the crimes by race. Whites outnumber Afr. Americans by more than 2 to 1.

Also, according to the Innocence Project the number 1 reason for wrongful convictions is false identification, not racism! In fact, false identification was the cause in over 75% of the cases.

Betting you don't respond directly to what's stated above. But maybe you're different than others on the far left. Let's see.

Two things for you:

1. I was talking about the area in which Castile was stopped and murdered, not the state as a whole.

2. The issue with identification is simple: it was the black guy, officer. Except, surprise, it wasn't. Or, alternately, it was a black guy, officer. Probably that black guy that you happen to put in front of me, but maybe not.

So you're saying that of the 212, 159 (75%) were in there because a white person committed the crime instead?

I would never suggest that because that's insane to suggest. What I am suggesting is that there are plenty of people out there who see one black guy as all black guys. It wouldn't matter who you put in front of them, if they're black that was probably the guy.

Yes, there are still problems.

The civil rights movement in the 60's was right to try to correct what they could. And there are some things today that need fixing.

But....I find it also racist to say as many liberals do something along the lines of " These poor people can't fend for themselves in any way unless we give them our help."

Guess what? Nearly every group in this country has been oppressed and fairly seriously at different times. Nearly all of them eventually prospered by becoming part of the system and embracing stuff like laws and education.

Have I had advantages because of who I am? Probably, but it's hard to separate the ones from being from a really solid family and ones I might have had naturally. I know a few people who have started with more and done worse, and some who have started with less and done better. I do know that pretty much all my failings have been because of me.

Kapernick was as far as I can find an excellent student, and gifted athlete. Both of which got him advantages and opportunities that wouldn't have been open to me. (Passable student and moderately athletic)

Steve B

You did, before you edited your post to add "Or, alternately, it was a black guy, officer. Probably that black guy that you happen to put in front of me, but maybe not." Fair enough.

So let me ask. What is the breakdown for how many of the 159 wrongly identified were identified by a black witness and how many were identified by a white (or maybe, non-black) witness?

If it were one police department or several police departments in different areas, you might have a valid point. But that's not the case. The disproportionate arrests and convictions you speak of happen in every city, in every county, in every state across this nation. Are all police departments across the nation wrongfully targeting black people, that the numbers are disproportionate to white people? Or maybe is it because black people are committing a disproportionate number of the crimes and that's why they're arrested and convicted? Maybe it's not a police problem, maybe it's a behavioural problem???

And the question I asked was valid. Why is the dropout rate nearly double for black males than it is for white males? It's very relevant to the topic of discussion. My contention is that the dropout rate directly relates to the poverty rate, which directly relates to the crime rate (those arrests and convictions you speak of). Why are they dropping out? Is someone making them? Do the educators have an attitude towards minorities like you say the police do? Again, it's a fair question.

1. So you admit you're cherry-picking the statistics. The stats for the entire state of Minnesota would be considered much more valid to use if you wanted to generalize anything.

2. Well, even if the witness misidentified the proper black guy, it is very likely the criminal probably was still a black guy. You're certainly not implying that a witness who saw a white guy commit a crime told the police that it was actually a black guy. That's an argument a 12-year old would make.

Is affermative action rasism? Is it fair that a company has to hire a minority over a white person even if the white person is better qualified?

2 people vying for same job both lets say are in the low income bracket and lets say the white guy has more qualifications for that job dosnt get it cause of his skin color. Sounds rasist, no?

Agian, from my piont of view i hire who can make me money, but i just always thought that affirmative action wasnt right and never made sense.

I picked that statistic because I was talking about a specific incident that happened in a specific place. What does the rest of Minnesota have to do with Philando Castile's murder? He was murdered where he was murdered.

The point is, maybe there was no black guy at all. Maybe the black guy was a police invention in the first place. Maybe a witness didn't see anything. Have you ever heard of Louis Scarcella? Why don't you look him up.

Edited to add: I bring up the statistics I bring up in an effort to demonstrate that police bias and judicial prejudice are real things and not made up things that don't exist. That is my sole purpose in my posting, to say that these concerns are real concerns. They aren't opinions and they can't be brushed aside. It is a daily reality for many African Americans across the country.

Maybe the NFL needs to implement "safe spaces" similar to some universities these days so as to protect some sensitive feelings from the open expression of Kaepernick's free speech.

Please study the difference between correlation and causation. You have a lot of the former but none of the later.

And to your point on the statistics you bring, since you brought it up, let me ask again. What is the breakdown for how many of the 159 wrongly identified were identified by a black witness and how many were identified by a white (or maybe, non-black) witness?

You're so full of crap its ridiculous. People make their own choices and are a product of their choices. Just like dropping out of school is a choice. You keep overlooking that statistic.

For the life of me I dont know why Leon continues to let you post without your full name.

I don't know how you could possibly expect me to know that. The Federal Government found both the Baltimore and Ferguson Police Departments and judicial systems to be racially bias. That was a government finding. How can anyone say it doesn't exist?

Wow, if you could've worked eating watermelon and fried chicken in with all these other unquantifiable claims you would have won racist stereotype bingo. Have fun at your Klan rally this weekend.

Nessa Diab....no, that's not packs :), but she may have a role in this

Wow! Talk about your stereotyping?

Wow. Really? You admit you don't know the answer to that simple question. "2. The issue with identification is simple: it was the black guy, officer. Except, surprise, it wasn't. Or, alternately, it was a black guy, officer. Probably that black guy that you happen to put in front of me, but maybe not. " Yeah, great evidence you got there. I wonder if the FG used the same criteria you use to find your 'racial bias'. Of course, they aren't bias at all. It's all objective. :rolleyes:

I would highly recommend not parroting everything you hear just because it's what you want to believe and do some critical thinking on your own. Again, correlation, not causation. Look it up. Or maybe reading comprehension is the root cause here?

Again, no one is saying it doesn't exist. However your claim is that institutionalized racism is the reason. Bar none other, from what I can tell, since you are the only one arguing against all other possible causes.

I can just imagine your solution to this. More government involvement in a problem they have institutionalized (according to you). Makes perfect sense. :rolleyes:

Yeah, you got me. Clearly I'm the racist here. :rolleyes:

Of all your attempts to deflect the conversation away from the real issue this post is by far the most laughable.

I have a question for dgo71 and packs. We all know about Philando Castille, Trayvon Martin, Freddie Gray, Michael Brown, Alton Sterling, Eric Garner, Walter Scott, Tamir Rice, and Laquan McDonald because you can't turn on a TV, computer, or radio without being bombarded about them. How many black men that were murdered by other black men in the last few years can the two of you name? I did all of those out of memory, so no cheating and researching names.

I haven't deflected anything. The only deflection is my question going unanswered. Packs is not intellectually equiped to answer it, so here's your shot. Why do black male high school students have a dropout rate that is twice the rate for white male high school students? You (at least I think it was you, it was someone) mentioned earlier in the thread about blacks not having the same opportunities as whites. Seems like they're not taking advantage of their greatest opportunity - an education.

If you read these texts and still can't understand why Kaepernick did what he did then there's nothing that will allow you to see that a real problem exists. Is this just one example? Yes. Is this the only case of this happening? Certainly not. Is even one instance such as this unacceptable? Absolutely. Tell me minorities in this area had the same opportunities as white people under this clown's watch.

http://www.vox.com/2015/5/8/8573497/...-police-racism

Strawman argument much? How about instead, how many unarmed white men can you name that have been killed by police while surrendering? Take your time, I'll wait.

Just to put a tiny touch of humor out there.........

Boston area Busing program potluck dinner late 70's Hosted in the suburban town. Guy from Roxbury brings...........Yep fried chicken and watermelon. When the PTA ladies get all flustered and he hears "how could you?!" He simply says "What? I like this stuff!"

He would be very unlikely to get a Klan membership.

People are just people, and sometimes normal for them matches someone elses stereotype.

Steve B
PS. Awesome fried chicken, he made it himself. Fantastic cook.

People dont care whos being killed, they care about who is doing the killing.

But yeah, like i said black victims matter too. There are a lot people in jail who did crimes against black people.


Trayvon Martin i really dont think should be classified like the group of black victims that are named that died in the hands of police. He was not killed by a police offer for one. Its a shame taxpayer money was spent on the trial that had no chance for a conviction. The guy that killed Travyon is not a saint and appears to have a lot of issues as well.

Who was killed by the police while surrendering? I can list several people who were killed by the police for FTC - failure to comply. Do you really believe your own BS?

Institutional racism undoubtably exists in police departments around the world.

When american citizens tried to protest this egregious bias against African Americans they were met with, "why can't they protest peacefully?" or "riots only make things worse, they should protest without causing damage." Well, Colin Kaepernick found a way to protest peacefully. I welcome the effort.

How the hell should I know? You don't know either. Your study didn't seem to take cause into consideration. Maybe a kid from a single-parent family had to dropout to support his family. Maybe the kid wanted to be a criminal. Maybe any one of a thousand things in between. Regardless, does the dropout rate being disproportiante have anything to do with how laws, practices and rights are applied to all races? No, it doesn't. You're arguing apples and oranges (again, deflecting) trying your damdest to downplay that racial inequality exists. I'm not going to argue with you about things that are not related to the very simple matter at the heart of this debate.

BTW, I asked two questions that went unanswered, and was willing to let it go, but since you're such a proponent of addressing questions that are asked directly, here's your chance to enlighten us all.

The first question from Page 2 was:
You're saying there's absolutely no difference in the way police (or anyone for that matter) treat white people and black?

Second, also on Page 2:
If Brock Turner was black to do you think there's any chance he'd be a free man right now?

The second question was mostly rhetorical and any answer would be purely speculative, but I bet anyone who asks it honestly would arrive at the same answer. Let's hear about your thoughts on #1. Tell me more about how minorities bring it on themselves. Break out some stats, because we all know there's absolutely no way numbers can be manipulated to prove any point you want them to. With a straight face, look us in the eye and tell us everyone has the same freedom to walk down a street at night without being treated differently based on their appearance.

Oh for Christ's sake, fine. Take out the surrendering part. See how you latch onto the part of the question of that isn't even the issue?

Name me some white people who were shot for FTC, or for any damn reason.

Since apparently not complying is cause enough to be shot, let's hear those names. Plenty of black men's names seem to come right to mind, so surely, in this land of complete and total equality, there are just as many white names that met the same fate. Go.

Failing to comply isn't punishable by death.

No, but reaching for a gun is sufficient reason to kill them.

38 unarmed African American men and women were killed in 2015 alone.

how many police officers were killed by people that were unarmed..i know of a courtroom officer that was killed by a prisoner who took the officers gun a few months ago that was in the news

Less than 3.

Including most of these people, at least in regards to "reaching for a gun":

Again.....this disproves racial inequality HOW??? You guys seem to have a hell of a hard time staying on topic.

So what? Thats only about half of the white men that were killed by cops. Where is your outrage there? Keep spouting your leftist loon agenda.

Per Washington Post, unarmed Americans killed by police officers:

Black: 38
White: 32
Hispanic: 18

Since there are roughly five times as many white Americans as black Americans, you would expect around 190 unarmed white deaths for it to be proportional.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/...ut-minority-d/

Adjusted to take into account the racial breakdown of the U.S. population, he said black men are 3.5 times more likely to be killed by police than white men. But also adjusted to take into account the racial breakdown in violent crime, the data actually show that police are less likely to kill black suspects than white ones.

“If one adjusts for the racial disparity in the homicide rate or the rate at which police are feloniously killed, whites are actually more likely to be killed by police than blacks,” said Mr. Moskos, a former Baltimore cop and author of the book “Cop in the Hood.”

“Adjusted for the homicide rate, whites are 1.7 times more likely than blacks die at the hands of police,” he said. “Adjusted for the racial disparity at which police are feloniously killed, whites are 1.3 times more likely than blacks to die at the hands of police.”

Well since there are five times more white American citizens than black American citizens, more black people are killed proportionately.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.dcd700fd14f6

That is not the conclusion of the analysis. Read it.

The Washington Post data I read said 50% of the victims of fatal police shootings were white, 26% were black.