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High Fallutin
Is this classification unique to the legal community or can people in other occupations aspire to it ?
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I don't know a way to cross reference with that data. The data I have isn't very easy to work with, generally speaking.
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I personally can't wait to see what those accused of shill bidding do? Will they use the most popular method of denial, change blame/subject, and name calling. I love how guilty people start of denying anything happened, then try to change the subject or try to switch the blame to others and after those 2 don't work they revert to name calling. I can't remember this method actually working for anyone.
The most effective is to come out fast and be honest, well as honest as one can be when caught being a less than stellar human being. From all the scandals in sports you would think the criminals would figure out the people that admit to their mistakes right away are looked at much better in the history books. |
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A BIG Thank YOU! |
Is there a way to find what was auctioned off? I am particularly interested in April 2007 Lot # 1512. Thank you in advance.
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Tom C |
How do you prove something was a shill bid? Can't the suspected shill bidder -- even if a competitor auctioneer or dealer -- just come back and say "Well of course we all follow each others' auctions and try to steal things at low prices if we can. I would have taken that Mantle card at $10,000 happily. . . . I suspected others would come along and far outbid me but crazier things have happened . . . ."
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I guess this might be one of those examples of "First World Problems" that are often joked about. Not a joking matter here, of course, but I am nowhere near having this problem. I have never bid on an auction that wasn't on ebay and I am definitely a low end collector compared to just about any item shown on this report. It is likely that via ebay, I have been a victim of paying more than I would have w/o a shill bidder. I snipe just about everything and have for years now. Although that will help protect you from those pesky "nibblers" that bid up your proxy bids until you are maxed or they just slightly outbid you, you still pay more regardless if someone tosses out a shill bid anywhere within the listing timeframe. Kind of like those victimless line items from the report.
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Here is the link for this specific item: http://legendaryauctions.com/LotDeta...entoryid=70657 |
Here is the list of schill bidders removing the duplicates
These are the names that appear in the Shill Bidder column of that list only, this does not includes the Consignors just to clarify
Alex Sawchak Alex Sawchak and William Vangelos Andrew Caparelli Andrew Filipowski Andrew Filipowski and Mastro Auctions Andy Tuttle Barbara Simmons Bill Boehm Bill Mastro Bill Mastro and Andrew Filipowski Bill Mastro and Jeffrey Marren Bill Mastro and John Reznikoff Bill Mastro and Millard Fisher Bill Mastro, Mastro Auctions Bill Mastro, Rich Mantia, Mastro Auctions Bill Mastro, Ryan Friedman Brian Bigelow Brian Marren Cardboard Coll. Cardboard Collectibles Chad Dreier Chad Vandemark Chris Porter Chris Porter and Kirk Wagonlander Cliff Kakelik and Mastro Auctions Cliff Kekelik Craig Helling Cynthia Graves Darryl Abramowitz Dave Forman Dennis Beechy Derek Ihnat Diroberto, Helling Diroberto, Marronpot Doug Allen Doug Allen and Andrew Filipowski Doug Allen and Bill Mastro Doug Allen and John Reznikoff Doug Allen and Mastro Auctions Doug Allen, Reznikoff Mastro Edward (Josh) Petrie Eric Grigson Frank Diroberto Frank Diroberto, Marronpot Frank Simmons Greg Floyd Helling Henny Steinbach Irv Lerner Irv Lerner CPA Irv Lerner, CPA Jay Dyer Jay Dyer and Shane Mooney Jay Dyer, Mastro Auctions, Inc, and Shane Mooney Jeff Marren Jeff Marren and John Reznikoff Jeff Marren and Mastro Auctions Jeffrey Marren Jennifer Stein Jerry Zuckerman Jerry Zuckerman and Ralph Deluca Jerry Zuckerman, Joe Demattio Jerry Zuckerman, Ralph Deluca Joe Demattio John Reznikoff John Reznikoff and Mastro Auctions John Reznikoff Jorge Marce Jorge Marce and Andrew Filipowski Jorge Merce Kevin Keating Kevin Keating and Bill Mastro Kevin Keating and Doug Allen Kevin Keating, and Mastro Auctions, Inc. Kevin Keating, John Reznikoff Kevin Keating, Reznikoff / Mastro Kevin Keating, Rich Mantia Kevin Struss Kirk Wagonlander Kirk Wagonlander and Mastro Auctions Kirk Wagonlander, Mastro Auctions Kristin Straub Les Perline Les Perline and Henny Steinbach Les Perline and John Reznikoff Les Perline Les Perlne Les Perlne and Mastro Auctions Loraine Cordes Marc Held Mark Irodenko Mark Irodenko and Andew filipowski Mark Irodenko and Andrew Filipowski Mark Theotikos Mastro Auctions Mastro Auctions and Doug Allen Mastro Auctions and Shane Mooney Mastro Auctions Inc. Mastro Auctions, Inc and Steve Lucas Mastro Auctions, Inc. Mastro Auctions, Inc. and Bill Mastro Mastro Auctions, Inc., and John Reznikoff Mastro Auctions, Inc., and Mark Irodenko Mastro Auctions, Inc., and Ryan Friedman Mastro Auctions, Ryan Friedman Mike Mallon Mike Mallon and Dennis Beechy Mitch Rosen Nicholas Dawes Nick Dawes Nick Dawes and Mastro Auctions Nick Dawes, Mastro Auctions Nick Dawes, Rich Mantia Niel Feltz Peter Calderon Peter Calderon, and Chris Porter Peter Calderon, Bill Mastro Peter Garcia Peter Spaeth Ralph Deluca Ralph Deluca and Jerry Zuckerman Ralph Deluca, Jerry Zuckerman and Joe Demattio Random Treasures Ray Canales Reznikoff/Mastro Reznikoff/Mastro John Reznikoff Rich Mantia Rich Mantia and Mastro Auctions Rich Mantia, Kevin Keating and Bill Boehm Richard Consola Rob Hughes Robert Bordan Rocco Loconte Roco Loconte Roco Loconte and Nick Dawes Ron Oser Russ Pardy Russ Purdy Russ Purdy and Kevin Keating Ryan Friedman Shane Mooney Shane Mooney, Jay Dyer, and Mastro Auctions, Inc. Stephen Spector Steve Forman Steve Lucas Steve Lucas and Brian Bigelow Steve Lucas and Mastro Auctions, Inc. Steven Turner Teale Laney Tim Frystak Tim Frystak, Brian Marren, Chris Porter TJ Schwartz Whit Rutledge William Schonsheck William Vangelos Zach Rullo |
Who is Cardboard Collectibles?
It shows them shilling me Page 81 lot 1856 I am shown as being shilled on a 3rd series Wacky Package stickers full box Graded by GAI. Though I do collect wacky packages, I never won that item. Too funny |
Lerner and Reznikoff; I am not that surprised. Kevin Keating and Pete Calderon; definitely shockers.
D@v1d D@v1s |
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That list is the just the Shill bidders, but not the ones that consigned.
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I'd love to hear him chime in. His name was on the victim list as well, assuming we're thinking of the same guy. I have to imagine there are a few errors on this spreadsheet. |
Am I looking at the right list? It says "Consignor" and "Shiller"
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Zach Rullo, a PSA authenticator caught shill bidding. What is this world coming to?
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Put another way, do we think their receptionist was part of the shill bidding conspiracy? That seems unlikely. Bill |
Why can't a secretary place shill bids for her boss? I'd buy it if all the bids were the in the names of the receptionist and the janitor, but it's not as if the bosses were shy about bidding under their own names.
If others' accounts were surreptitiously 'borrowed' to place illegal bids, perhaps there should have been charges for identity theft. Thus ultimate salt in the wound would be when someone sees he was bid up by Spot. |
What's the over/under on thread views here? :D
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There are 3 shillers listed that currently sit on the board of experts at PSA. If someone were to post this on the CU boards, how long would it last?
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Is Forman the same one from SGC? And can anyone see if those shilled lots were SGC cards?
Would also be great to know if any of the names involved have since become affiliated with/employed by other Auction Houses? |
this is quite the shit storm that's just getting started!
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I'm surprised so many folks are surprised. In-house proprietary auction houses make little sense from a financial perspective and can be easily manipulated by the AH. Shilling is probably still rampant on the ones that are left. You can't even see the bidders, which is the first clue as to what is going on there. E-bay has already spent billions building this software platform; and they do all the maintenance, upgrading, hardware, security, power, cooling, etc; for pennies. Does E-bay have shilling? of course. But at least I have some information to review in bid history to make my own assessment. Lastly, and it's been beat to death, stay within your budget and be patient, and you will never be a "victim" of shilling again. |
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I agree with Bills take that you can't just assume because someone is in the shill column they did it...especially names like Calderon and Lucas and Henny Steinbach. There are some really aggredious instances on this spreadsheet though. Wow. Where does this go from here? Being outed like this, do people have any recourse on their situation? I was hit for $350 on a nonsports lot. I'm sure a lot of winners aren't jazzed about having the lots they won outed like this either. Many of these people play close to the best with their buying habits and collections.
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Agree with the sentiment above me. My budget may have been pushed by unrealistic prices set as a result of shilling even on lots that weren't shilled.
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I don't have a dog in the fight but there has been plenty of discussion surrounding many cards at the very high end that have had astronomical price appreciation correcting.
Some have tried to suggest it could come from a decline in the stock market. This could easily be the unforeseen catalyst that impacts prices. If shilling was so rampant during this period one must assume it is even more rampant today with card prices appreciating at the rate they have in many cases. I have a feeling this story is just getting started and it will be incredibly fascinating to watch it play out. |
My name appears on the list of "shill bidders" on one transaction where my friend, Ron Goldberg, was the consignor. I don't view myself as a shill bidder, nor do I believe Ron did anything inappropriate. I have no doubt that some of you will disagree, and candidly I have shared this with a few people I respect a lot and they come out different ways. In any event, these are the facts.
In 2007, Ron had a valuable but relatively low demand oddball set (one of the Red Men sets). At some point he was talking to Doug and Doug asked if he would consider consigning the set. Ron said that he would but that because it was an oddball set, he was reluctant to do so unless a reserve could be placed on the auction, particularly since one of Ron's lots had sold well below his expectations in a previous auction. Doug said that he would not place a formal reserve, but instructed Ron that he could achieve the same result if he had a friend bid the reserve amount. Doug insisted, however, that if the friend won the auction, Ron would have to pay the buyer's premium. Ron then asked me if I would let him bid using my ID. After thinking it over, I agreed. My thinking at the time was that Ron was not going to consign the set anyhow without a de facto reserve (so that there really was no scenario of a no reserve auction where someone could have won the set for a pittance), and that because Ron was going to have to pay the buyer's premium if the bid from my account won, the result would be the same as if I paid for the set and then flipped it back to Ron. As it turned out, Ron's fear was correct and the bid from my account was high bid, even though Ron had hoped the set might go much higher and in fact sold it for 20k more eventually. So he paid the premium and the set was returned to him. It worked out exactly the same as if there had been a reserve, or higher opening bid. No victim. Nobody "run up." To be clear, Ron had no idea who else had bid or whether they had placed a top all. I am pretty sure, by the way, that many of the lots identified by the government as allegedly involving shill bidding (including multiple lots consigned by other Net 54 board members whose names have not been mentioned yet) are of the same character. Some, on the other hand, doubtless are lots where Mastro and Allen knew the top alls and bid them up themselves, or told the consignor. I understand there are different ways to view the transaction. We have, in fact, debated this issue before at least in the abstract. I understand the other side, and have no doubt many of you folks will vilify Ron and me. So be it. I have nothing to hide. And apologies for the delay in posting, but I needed to verify the facts with the consignor. If you are going to vilify Ron, by the way, please be sure to include the other board members identified as consignors on multiple lots, it would be very unfair to single him out. |
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Just when I thought that the Mastro Mess was beginning to move slowly to the back burner, with Bill inside and Doug soon to go, but now we have more sordid details and, horror of horrors, actual names on both sides of the equation. The Dark Side rules tonight. Yoda
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Peter
Peter, the only reason that no one was "run up" is because it happened that there were no bidders. If there had been bidders, you would have run them up.
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List
well peter admits to being a shill...how nice
so he believes theres nothing wrong with making the public believe the value of that item is what he bid when in fact there was no one willing to actually pay that price...ie the most anyone person was willing to pay lets says is 1800 and he puts in 2000...but the 1800 bidder actually would have won the lot for 1200 as the 3rd bidders hi bid was only 1100...and he doesnt see anything wrong with that....if your consignor friend ron wants at least x dollars then he should consign it to an AH that will start the bidding at x dollars...this is nothing more than artificially upping the perceived value in the eyes of the public...but theres nothing wrong with that....hmmmmm |
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again i understand no one got hurt this time..but sometimes bad things are done many times but only one time they get caught for it....though you always hear it on 'to catch a predator' it was their first time they ever did this... I don't think you are part of the hobby problem at all..i think personally you are a great asset for the hobby and i am sure everyone would agree....i would bid on any of your ebay auctions if you had any with no hesitation.. you also are a great resource on knowledge on cards...i hope its doesn't look like i am bashing you...i just commenting.....also you are mentioned like the very very least out of the 100s of other names on there |
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