Vintage Tobacco Packs- Let's see them
 

Would love to see examples of packs that would have held some of these little gems. If you've got them show them off.

Red Cross. I believe the stamp is a couple years off the T215, but I haven't seen any other versions of the packaging.

I'll start with some T206-related cigarette packs:

Some pre-1900 packs:

Some random rare packs:

Wow, what graphics!

Wow. Those are all really awesome!

Attachment 319957

Attachment 319958

Attachment 319959

Attachment 319960

Attachment 319961

Attachment 319962

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This is an image of a Gold Coin pack that most likely contained the N284 card.

An actual pack may not exist.

Here's my couple...

Amazing
 

Really great pictures!. A "TTT", too...wonder how many of those exist?

Tremendous eye candy in this thread. Here's a couple more.....

http://photos.imageevent.com/threetw...edmonttins.jpg

http://photos.imageevent.com/threetw...ge/t3packs.jpg

I have a few......
 

I don't get to share these too often so jumping on the opportunity. Not up to the quality/relevance level of others like Jon and Tony but I guess I tried to make up for that with volume. Sorry for some duplication but stuff all together. Most of my packs - a few nestled behind less card relevant stuff so I left them off. Note to the sealed "cat" tobacco pouch from 1800's!!! Lucky strike shelf and below it all still SEALED. If you look closely I do have quite a few card and card era packs. Regret that $$ considerations forced me to long ago sell a few of the rarest card related packs I had. Oh well.

Henry, I never grow tired of viewing your incredible collection. Absolutely gorgeous stuff my friend!

Here's another to share. In my opinion the cartons which once held these packs may even be more difficult to locate that the packs themselves.

http://photos.imageevent.com/threetw...ccocartons.jpg

thanks Tony
 

long ago sold my few cartons other than the Gypsy Queen :D. That Virginia Brights quite special. It looks late 1910's - early 1920's - any information on it? Could be earlier I suppose but the simplicity leading me there.

one day
 

I hope to replace a few I've sold - especially the 19th century ones. The Broadleafs, Ramleys (and Ramleh), Lenox and others show up far and few between. Forget the Creole, GQ, TTT's. I've still never been able to procure a Lone Jack pack (had 2 shots - came up empty) - and of course that Drum off the charts.....

I suppose it's a Gypsy Queen on my most wanted list - any of the three variations (?) will do.

Hi Henry. I've not been able to Determine the true date on the Virginia Brights carton either.

Here is whats printed on both side panels and the bottom of the carton does have two small ink stamps which read H12. I'm not sure if this helps us any.

http://photos.imageevent.com/threetw...t/huge/vb1.jpg

http://photos.imageevent.com/threetw...t/huge/vb2.jpg

Thanks guys. Henry and Tony - unbelievable, amazing stuff. Greg - your TTT always makes me jealous.

There's a few I still need, however all are so hard to find. It seems like I go a year or 2 before I'm able to check one off the list. GQ, Uzit, TTT, Mono and Virginia Extra are all still on the list.

Out of the ones I do have, I think the KBs, Drum, Contentnea, Kotton, Mino and Hindu are the rarest ones. I'm not aware of too many other examples out there. I've also never come across another example of the Punch Cigaros pack. The one I have still has a full, intact tax stamp with a 1912 date.

All these are stunning. Thanks to all for sharing. That Punch pack is fantastic!

Speaking of the Punch pack, that is some seriously disturbing imagery on it. What in high heck is that all about?? :)

Punch and Judy is a traditional, popular, and usually violent puppet show featuring Pulcinella (Mr. Punch) and his wife Judy. The performance consists of a sequence of short scenes, each depicting an interaction between two characters, most typically Mr. Punch and one other character who usually falls victim to Punch's club.

Here is the front and back...

http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f9...pspoer8ua8.jpg
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f9...psduxnqkwz.jpg
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f9...pshs4h37qd.jpg

Counterfeit Gypsy Queen
 

This is a great post. And this is the perfect place to share this knowledge.

Beware of the counterfeit Gypsy Queen packet. I shared this with a few guys who are on here already. I acquired this packet a few years back. Luckily, I was able to return it to the antique book store who sold it and received a full refund. The seller was from down in the southwest, like AZ or NM. He was unaware of its authenticity. File this one away because it may resurface in another auction down the road!

Punch
 

an iconic brand - likely among the longest lived of all national/international cigar brands. There was usually a devil or policeman involved in the Punch and Judy puppets that were featured on the streets of England I believe. I had a cloth glass and wooden devil puppet from the series my mother brought me in the 1950's. Only the head remains - form your own conclusions. I also have a couple of figural pieces including a go to bed silver matchsafe (also used as a happy ending timer) and a cigar box or two. Their early graphics are eerie and superior. I'll try and post a box top. Have only seen that pack once before - quite nice in that configuration. A beauty.

I sold my TTT to the person WHO SHOULD HAVE IT. 'nuff said :D

Kieth - OOO - nice to see you posting! Any story to accompany the post?

Lone Jack and Gypsy Queen
 

A few my good friend Jay M. (Oldjudge) sent over to post, from his collection. I think I might recognize one of them.

very nice
 

what does he need the Lone Jack for??? :D

Only one, Leon?

Love this thread, love the 19th century packs. Most of mine would be repeats of what has already been shown. Here are the three variations of SF Hess Creole, all with 1883 tax stamps (meaning they were issued between 1883 and 1893). This date range can be narrowed down a bit as the slide and shell packs didn't gain wide usage until late 1886 into 1887. They are in what I believe to be chronological order, left to right.

http://www.net54baseball.com/picture...ictureid=24781

From a guy who doesn’t focus on tobacco cards, I am in love with this thread. These packs are just so beautiful. We are often stunned that old cards still exist; it is mind blowing that cigarette packs still exist from over 100 years ago! Did any of you guys ever pull a card from a pack? I noticed that Jon had a Lewis next to an Obak pack, and it made me wonder if he pulled it.

I had no idea the brand was a reference to Punch and Judy. Yowza! Thought they were just being bizarre on their own.

Orlando - I did not pull the card myself, but it came out of that pack (and yes, everything is still together). I originally purchased the pack from Frank Ward I believe. If memory serves me correct, the person who purchased the pack originally didn't realize it was still unopened, and when he or she looked to see if it was full, found the card still tight inside.

It explains the sharp corners and great condition. Also explains the heavy staining. Well, I am in awe your collection. Amazing stuff.

Nothing new here....except for a little bit of jazzing up with some cards.



http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...Fogarty50x.jpg . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...5th1878x50.jpg




http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...igpackt206.jpg




http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...ackjohnson.jpg




http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...30xNYpackX.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...30xNYpackB.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...nkSC150x30.jpg




http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...esnahan75x.jpg..http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...eccacobb_1.jpg




http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...itboxncard.jpg




http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...atecigpack.jpg.http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...atecigpack.jpg.http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...t215pirate.jpg



TED Z

T206 Reference
.

Jon-Those are two different GQ packs
Henry-I collect Lone Jack cards

Three that Jon and I are aware, bound to be others, but no new ones seen in the last decade.

The one I got from Henry and a few other Ramly boxes.

Here's a couple more that may not have been posted yet. The Royal Bengals is a non-sport set, but the packs are full and I like the graphics, too!

I LOVE to learn or see something NEW
 

and dag nabbit I have never seen that scorecard slide on a Hassan pack - that is QUITE special although surely not unique. It makes some sense as they used base ball in a few of their offerings and advertising. VERY neat - to me anyway as I can't recall any other packs including an interactive component. Anyone else?

Scott - wowza!!!!
 

them is spectacular.

Jay - OK OK I knew that :-)

Great article Jerry
 

Did you write it? Perfect opportunity to post it. I might suggest while it's true that cards were initially produced and put into packs to stimulate sales - what precipitated their inclusion into packs was that there was an increasing outcry at the "scandalous" and suggestive LARGE photographic and chromolithographic advertising pieces that were being displayed in shop windows. Putting their advertising INTO the product was a way of getting around this and therein fulfilled a dual purpose. Now perhaps there's some conjecture involved - but I have read contemporaneous accounts of such righteous indignation.

I have only read part of the article but did notice the Yum Yum tin. I know there was a paper notice referring to base ball cards being included attached on the bottom? Was it the rectangular tin or the pail or perhaps both?

adding: I agree that the four base hits likely came in a similar package to the Kalamazoo as I have 2/3 examples that are similar for different brands. I think packaging WILL be found.
I think it's conceptually a mistake to call the Gold Coin a "pack" as I think it most likely was a paper PACKAGE although I have no concrete evidence. Because of that, a couple redemption offers for the labels, and the graphics are flat - we may never find an actual package. As I write this - I'm thinking that might not even be the appropriate package. I'll get back to you :-)

Tobacco Tins
 

Mayo & Bros. Tobacco tins and N300 cards perfect together in 1895


http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...inFront50x.jpg .......... http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...AYOLong38x.jpg


http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...oTin2pix50.jpg



TED Z

T206 Reference
.

Henry-

I believe the Hassan packs that had a T202 triple folder inside were printed with the scorer on the back of the inner slide. I have 2 Hassan packs in my collection, both of which were from a find in 1994 that were unopened and contained T202s (both were subsequently opened before I could purchase them). In both circumstances, the inner slide had a scorer.

- Jon

excellent - thanks Jon
 

I would expect that to be the case but never thought it out. Adds to my appreciation for the series. I must keep an eye out now :-)

Yes Henry, this article was published in Beckett's Vintage Collector last year.

What was scandalous about advertising displays in shop windows? I have not encounter that circumstance in my search. For one of his other incentives Duke would find every social and patriotic event to donate free cigarettes to encourage cigarette smoking.

Yum Yum tin is just a prop from my files - don't need the real thing in this case.

Gold Coin (pack and package are synonyms) - I favor your crystal ball's response that GC packaging WILL be found. My cheap crystal ball does not respond.

Hope you get to finish reading the article soon - good stuff at the end - Teddy stepped in - the bad guy lost!


With your expertise you should write - there are many areas still unexplored. Guess you would agree just uploading pictures without explanation is not as rewarding.

With respect to Yum Yum, as far as I'm aware, only the square tins have been found with the labeling about cards being packaged inside.

This is the only related item I own. Don't know if it would have ever contained any cards.

Jon, your GC tin is labeled that cards are inside! You showed that tin some time ago but I didn't see the card reference.

Thanks for the update.

Henry - here's another Hassan w/scorecard. This one had a beautiful (albeit off-centered) T202 pulled out of it in 1994.

Hello Jerry, your summary on the packs is interesting although I differ on some accounts. One I'd enjoy discussing with the experts would be the ornate GQ pack. Can you provide any reference to the ornate GQ packs being used in 1888 to distribute N162 cards? Jay's packs date to May 1887 and Nov. 1889, neither being ornate. Likewise, the Round Album which was released in July of 1889 has the plain looking pack depicted (the N162 album, A36, still being offered). GQ was the "cheap" brand in 1887 and perhaps remained so until ATC merger, selling for only 5 cents/10 count pack (Old Judge and Dogs Head were both 10 cents/pack of 10). Maybe the ornate pack is post ATC merger, perhaps no cards inserted? Thoughts?

The dating is correct on the non-ornate GQ packs. They were marked on the inside shell which is different than most other types of dating I saw when collecting. Now I mainly collect rppc's of these types...

http://luckeycards.com/pcx3tobacco.jpg

Jerry
 

I will address a couple of things when time permits but off to dive Eagle Grill for most excellent crab cakes. The shop/window displays I'm talking about were those from around 1880 - a time period where I would doubt you have any VISUAL evidence. Gotta run.....

Leon - that Ramley one just SPECTACULAR - I collected RPPC's for a while related to tobacco overall. It's a great niche - so much unique stuff.

Recently, in a neat little Antique shop in Oklahoma, I found this Plow Boy Tobacco Tin (circa 1910-1912).
Given the condition of it and its price, it was a must buy.



http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...ccoTin50xx.jpg


http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...inLandMx50.jpg


http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...mokeChew50.jpg




Plow Boy Tobacco cards......1910 Chicago Cubs

Evers ......................................... Brown .................................................. ..... Chance
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...oy6xCubs50.jpg
King Cole .............................................. Sheckard .................................... Lew Richie



TED Z

T206 Reference
.

Some time ago there was a debate here about the two different GQ card formats and the two different design packs. After it settled the relationship was as I display them:
1887 GQ-t1 (plain) N175 - 1888 GQ-t2 (ornate) N162.
I know the GQ-t1 is advertised on a Round Album page. The two GQs must have sold at the same time at least for a long overlapping period similar to the OJ and the Dogs Head's brands.

The GQ-t2 counter boxes are more plentiful than the GQ-t1 boxes and the N162 more plentiful than the N175s. The GQ-t2 packs were better sellers and as you say they were the cheaper smoke.

Possibilities:
1. GQ-t1 had N175 - GQ-t2 N162 cards. (Counter boxes, pack and card match design.)
2. GQ-t1 had N175 and N162- GQ-t2 no cards.
3. Both GQs had both cards.

ATC? Why?

Jerry-Can you show a Gypsy Queen Type 2 (ornate) pack with a tax stamp that would date it from 1887 or 1888?

awesome packs

Jay - I've never seen a Gypsy Queen t2 pack, have you?

This is a fantastic thread - simply incredible stuff! I especially like the T213, T215, and T216 packs.

Are there any other New Orleans packs/packaging out there? Virginia Extra? Highly unlikely but I'll ask anyway - Tango Eggs, Mothers' Bread, Weil, Holsum, etc?

I don't have any packs, but I do have the only metal El Principe de Gales box that I have been able to find.

Here is a Virginia Extra pack. It's not period (this one is 1920s), but the graphics would be exactly the same on a period pack, but most likely a slide and shell pack.

Jerry, we continue to learn more about the card sets and related items with time. For example, since publishing the OJ book ten years ago we know more about Goodwin, the cards issued, the distribution, redemption offers, etc. In the book you will find reference to belief that there were no baseball cards distributed in Dogs Head packs and we now know that is wrong. Every Dogs Head pack had an N172 + another card (initially N163 - Dogs of the World, followed by N165 Games & Sports). That is, until ATC merger.

Per your options above, I believe Option 2 is most likely, the plain box was used for both N175 and N162. N162 cards may have also been inserted in OJ packs once the baseball season ended as it was a set that covered far more than baseball. It wasn't until 1889 that Goodwin, per the Tobacco Journal that I wrote about in the last issue of Old Cardboard, kept the baseball player portraits (N172s) in the packs year round.

Regarding 5 cent packs such as GQ, there were others that had high quality cards inserted such as Duke's Best (N84 playing cards + N85 Postage Stamp cards), two color cards in one pack of 5 cent smokes.

Here is a more complete, yet small image of the ornate pack courtesy of Jim Shaw (doesn't own it but shared image). After the ATC merger there were a lot of changes to the lesser brands, the distribution and packaging often changed (sometimes ceased altogether if experimenting with it failed).


Enough about GQ :) Your dating on N28 and N29 cards are off a bit, it should state fall of 1888 for N28 and late summer of 1889 for N29. These cards were also distributed in more than just Richmond Straight Cut packs. I've mentioned this before on the forum and published some of the details in last issue of OC. I'll write on this a bit more in a separate thread as there is a good bit to share.


More pics . . . Here are a couple images of a candy & tobacco store from Grand Haven, MI (dated on back as 1913).


If you look hard at the shelf below the pipes (top) you will see OBAK, Fatima, and others. Henry, looks like the Tiger Chewing Tobacco tin at bottom center is a match to the one in your display.

Neither belong to me, but both incredible items.

The counterfeit "GQ" packet posted earlier in this thread must have existed at some point. It would be the ATC variation, possibly early-mid 1890's? Has anyone seen a true pack of that design?

Joe
 

pretty sure copied from some other image - NOT A PACK. It actually looks a little familiar.....

Jon - can you provide a larger picture of the image next to the Mono pack? I'm old and can't see anything that small (mainly a problem when I need to pee).

Henry - unfortunately that's the largest scan I have. However, if you look to the upper portion of the photo, you will see large Mono cigarette display packs (similar to the Ramly display packs from Leon's post).

You would think, at least one of those large pack displays survived and is somewhere on earth!

Leon, I suspect that your neat RPPC showing the Ramly storefront display helps explain why T204 Ramly cards are so easy to find compared to T204 T.T.T. cards.

Dogs Head packs having a two card premium is a surprise.

You suggest option two: GQ-t2 no card - however the likeness of the design of the card to the pack suggest they were related therefore packaged together. They were printed at the same time for the same reason. You can't prove a negative - so why not consider option 3?

In my belief of option 1 or option 3 I show images of the GQ and OJ packs as sources of the N162 on my website. What must I do???

http://bcc.anaclubs.org/n162.htm

Yes, Jim Shaw has had his great tobacco pack collection website on the Internet for many years.

As for the A&G - not scientific, can't set your watch by my dates, the year is as close as I could determine.

The Goodwin group was tough in determining the card/pack relationships also I failed to determine how the 175 large card was distributed.


The Charles Gross Co. was tough also - I received some help from Keith Obermann to correctly attributing the Kalamzoo Bats cards.


Hello - Henry still connected? Have no feedback for page 45.

For you non-sport guys: The Nebo pack in the postcard looks to have reversed colors than the packs seen still out there today.

These are absolutely amazing! I would love to buy a pack some day, just to have as a display piece....

This is an Awesome Thread :)

I look Forward to More Pics :)

Interesting Henry, Jim and I thought it was front, side, and back to a shell that was unfolded. Would love to know it's origin.

The N162 cards are pretty but not sure why you suggest they are styled in the same format as the ornate GQ pack. They don't share colors, fonts, or style that I notice. To me, the facts are that the pack we know from 1887 and 1889 would be the pack that was used to distribute N162 cards in 1888 (the plain appearing pack). By your reasoning, did they also have an ornate OJ pack for N162 distribution?

You provided pretty specific dates on your website as follows which we now know to be in error.

Your spring of 1888 timing for N28 should retreat to fall of 1888 and your N29 date should get bumped to 1889, August of 1889 was start of distribution. The cards were also inserted in packs of Virginia Brights. For the VB packs, The "Crop of 1885" is correct for N28, the "Crop of 1886" is correct for N29. As I mentioned earlier, I will post details in another thread that repeats what I've published in OC and on this forum previously but with more details and evidence.

Here is an 1888 VB pack (A&G used ~3 year old tobacco). VB packs are easier to come by than many others and consistently have dated over-prints on the tax stamp to allow accurate dating of the pack. I have three 1888 VB packs dating from Feb. 28th to Dec. 18th, 1888 and all are "Crop of 1885".

Joe -

With almost no hard evidence forming absolute facts is nearly possible. Your new information alters earlier opinions. If I had access to more information it would have been ideal. I used what I had.

As I stated previously, this article was published last year. The webpage you see I wrote in HTML for submission. It was transformed by Beckett webpage designers to give it a 19th century atmosphere for the magazine. This subject is one of the five of my VC articles - they did a superb job on all. VC is a high quality sports card and memorabilia magazine.

Some of the statements you have made here have already been addressed - some are unfriendly to comments I made in jest. Some of my statements were overlooked.

The N28s were previously booked for the year 1887 - changed to 1888 just a few years ago. New information comes along as we progress. No reason to condemn the originators.

We have more than exceeded the purpose of this thread. There is more but not suitable for this forum.

Using what you had doesn't change the facts. We all make mistakes. That said, thanks for your research.

And thanks to Joe for the great information....(and everyone in this thread, it's really good)

Jerry-It's a good thing when more and better information comes out. Don't think of yourself as being attacked (you are not); think of the body of hobby knowledge being added to. And BTW, there is not a nicer, more diligent, hobby researcher than Joe Gonsowski.

what he said
 

:D

Believe examples have already been shown, but here are the ones in my collection. Note: The drum pouch likely didn't hold a card, pirate pack contains all of the cigarettes/foil with an oriental card inside, and the wooden EPDG box is older than T206 period.

Picked up this Tobacco pack in Cooperstown.

My understanding is the B18 flannels were issued wrapped around the Egyptienne pack.
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...garettes50.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...yStengel50.jpg

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...CigpackB50.jpg



TED Z

T206 Reference
.

correct Ted
 

I remember seeing about 20 such packages with the left behind strips that attached them as well as a couple that still had the blankets. It was in the early 1990's and I didn't realize at the time that I would covet an example 20 years later.

T card Boxes
 

Hey All, have a few boxes from my T card collection, mostly held non sports cards, few cross over to BB as well...

Love the old Boxes!

Cliff


Attachment 321467

Mecca T201z - Factory 30 and Factory 649 and a coupon:

Attachment 321468

Attachment 321469

Love the T227z!

Attachment 321470

Attachment 321471

T28 and T96 Boxes:

Attachment 321472

Attachment 321473

T68 and T70 Boxes:

Attachment 321474

Attachment 321475

Awesome T28 Advertisement:

Attachment 321476

Awesome T227 Miners Extra Shipping Box!

Attachment 321477

That Miner's carton is awesome.

Not mine, but wanted to add it to the mix.
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f9...just-a-box.jpghttp://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f9...just-a-box.jpg

I was hoping for this thread to take off when I posted it. You guys never disappoint! Great stuff!