1914 CJ Joe Jackson PSA 2 to SGC 5
 

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=3297

Seemed worthy of its own thread. Nice 65K bump.

Welcome, SGC.

Sadly when folks buy flips instead of actual cards this is what you get.

The color on the 5, if that's an accurate scan, is weak. The face and hands lost all their vibrancy.

Yikes. This and a T206 red Cobb SGC 6.5. Not good

What makes you think the buyer was buying a flip and not a card? This is a ridiculous statement. It's a shame the card appears to have been altered but that was a great looking 5, dead centered, in the holder of what was assumed to be a reputable grader. Had I been in the market for that card at the time with the available funds I would have been bidding.

Color is often hard to determine from online scans due to different scanner settings. That wouldn't have necessarily been a red flag.

Looking closer I’m not sure the Jackson’s are the same card. Of course we could not be sure unless someone still has it in a PSA 2.

That I agree with. Circling a couple of dots on the back of 2 cards that look similar does not prove they're the same card.

I own a print shop and any defect that happens to a sheet of paper like Baseball card goes on all the sheets printed until noticed by the printer. So similar dots, scuffing, hickeys ect can be the exact same on multiples cards. Like the 1990 Frank Thomas NNOF, that was a dent in the black blanket.

The OP on Blowout suggests that the red turned maroon because of the chemicals. It could be, but I’m thinking that the scans have something to do with it. What struck me was how the scratches between the face and the bat disappeared. Could it have been that they added color to that particular area, or the entire background? Could that explain the change in color? Is it even the same card?
Edit: There is a stain on the 2 that appears to be the same shape and size of a much lighter stain on the 5. Look at where it reads “Orleans,” then under that “late in 1910.” The stain goes on a bit south from there. It’s kind of shaped like Texas. Anyone else see that?

yes, and the largest green circle on the back shows a scattered mark that is differentiating. it's the same card.

Definitely the same card.

Any chance 2 cards that came out of a box of cracker Jacks 100 years ago could have similar looking stains in the same spot? Maybe one shaped like something covered in caramel was pressed against it.

I think it is likely the same card too.

Yeah corners are the same. That has nothing to do with the printer lol

Also back damage on the upper right that's been worked on, you can still traces of it and patterns match up, easily seen to the right of the "Cleve-"

Yes. It’s posible that two different, identically-shaped Cracker Jack candies stained two different Joe Jackson cards in the exact same spot. It is posible that the cards shared numerous other identifying features, including identical centering (slight tilt), corner-wear, and other markings. It is also possible that both of those cards survived over 100 years, and were sold in auctions a few months apart. Of course the lesser grade card sold first (by a reputable auction house), and the higher grade sold months later (by a company that is currently under the microscope for selling altered cards). So yeah, there is “possible” and there is “highly unlikely.”

Is it possible all this is just a bad dream?

Same card

I wish. But no, I don't think so.

Just checked the registry. No one has that card listed but the cert is still active. Assuming this card and others have been cleaned up and resubmitted maybe these guys could send the old flips back in an unmarked envelope. It should help everyone to have more accurate population numbers.

I’ll repeat what I said a few days ago. All the graders, regardless of the company, have trouble picking out cards that are doctored. Given enough time, and a library of before images, they could do it. Unfortunately, they have neither.

So what are we paying them for? Maybe we need to start a Graded Card Submitter Support Group to try to stop this vicious cycle. It's like drug peddling and addiction.

You are paying for a one minute or less look at most cards. If you want someone to spend a half hour on a card then grading fees will be a lot higher. People can’t legitimately expect a lot for $7.

It was rhetorical, but with a $99 max declared value for bulk submissions, these weren't submitted at that level. Some of these cost between $1,000 and $5,000 for the service level to be graded.

This hobby is shot. Collectors need to understand that if they continue to collect baseball cards their collections will contain altered cards, and that they will not be getting what they paid for. You either have to accept that fact, or find a new hobby. What a shame.

The constant questioning and denial of some leave me to wonder how many PWCC cards they are sitting on.

Ah, the dam will break; they just don't believe it yet. They're at some earlier stage of the grieving process.

And some will have already gotten their refunds, and the ones that hold out the longest risk losing it. This is why PSA and SGC and BGS need to decertify all of those altered cards in holders. Collectors will clutch them to their bosom and never let them go without it.

That’s probably the root of anyone denying this right now. They either have a large legal or financial liability (or both).

But Jay, wouldn’t a nice looking, 1914 Cracker Jack joe Jackson have a value substantial enough that the grading fees are $500-$1,000=? And if so, I would think that kind of grading fee should buy you a much better, longer and detailed look than a $7 submission (perhaps a 100x better look?)

The 5 was graded at the National according to Brent.

When I blew up the Heritage scan I thought maybe those scratches were on the holder.

A dent in the print blanket.:confused: How does a thick rubber mat get a dent in it that affects several cards on the sheet? The other part i agree with, print spots will show up on several copies.

So was the Leaf Jackie we saw earlier. Good show!!

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=2827

Is that Cracker Jack for sure the same card ?
Removing Gloss, how in the world can they miss that ? The top right corner ? What kinda special chemicals were used on that idk it’s not that hard if this is the same card....how did SGC miss this crapola...it’s disgusting

It doesn't bother me that people want to make sure the cards are the same, I think it's fair. The only thing that would bother me is continued denial in the face of the evidence.

It's interesting that of all the cards outed on Blowout so far, I don't think there's been a single instance when someone came forward and said he still owned the "pre" card.

Here's more proof it's the same card:

The larger circle is paper loss while the small circle was recolored.

(sorry, the PWCC image is not the best of quality, even though it's "High Res")

Heritage PSA 2:
http://www.net54baseball.com/picture...ictureid=27048

PWCC SGC 5:
http://www.net54baseball.com/picture...ictureid=27047

Absolutely agree with your second sentence the continued denial in the face of evidence is bothersome. I get people have big cards in their holders but come on how are these guys, the graders this bad at their jobs?? Sometime smells bad real bad.

Thanks sir ! I’m seeing this now....shameful

I assume that at the National there will be more than a few collectors who will get into verbal confrontations with PSA. Should be interesting. Somebody needs to film it.

Personally I’m a little sad that I will not be making the national this year. I would hope that there will be lots of visual and verbal opposition to what is happening. I would love to see people aggressively picketing or boycotting those known to be guilty so that others can see what is happening .

I am sure they will be fully prepared to spin this as a very limited and contained problem.

Agreed. But that will only get the people on the other side of the table angrier, louder, and more vocal. Like I said, should get interesting.

Here's a sad statement: I miss Battlefield/Candyman!

They were entertaining and all they did was photoshop and over grade

They will just poof any protesters from the Set Registry shindig I am sure, and higher ups will be nowhere near the table at the show.

I only have a few of what some would consider high end cards. They were all bought privately except for an REA win, the only one I've ever won there. I have bid on quite a few pwcc cards over the years, but only won 4 or 5.

I have mentioned before I use PWCC for all of my consignments. There's always an auction running, they get the highest prices, and have the lowest fees. I am still not convinced yet at their level of involvement in this scandal, and think it's very possible card doctors use their service for the same reasons I do.

I know that there are a lot of guys who have some amazing ungraded cards. But isn’t it fair to say that if you are a TPG receiving a really nice 1914 Joe Jackson at this stage in the game, there is a 90% chance that the card has already been graded before, and the owner wasn’t happy with the grade and/or altered it? Wouldn’t they look at a card like that a bit more skeptically, and assume that at best, the owner wasn’t happy with the previous grade and broke open for a regrade? If I see a raw 1914 CJ JJ at a show, I can tell you that my first thought would be “no thanks. You either got an ‘A’ or the card presents much better than the grade you got and didn’t like.”

It's contained alright. In 10,000 slabs.

I wish it was only that many.

The population of slabbed cards is a combination of clean cards and (reasonably) well-doctored cards.

The population of unslabbed cards is a combination of clean cards and poorly doctored cards.

So it seems, as long as you're at least as good at detecting alterations as the graders are, as seems to apply to an increasingly large proportion of Net54 members, that it's safer to buy raw since the altered ones will be fairly obvious.

Barry--Please convince Corey of this. I'd like to save him this heartache and buy a few of his cards before they become worthless. I know I'm crazy, but it would be helping a friend out.

Graders should just move to a system where it's slabbed as authentic or it's rejected as a fake. Buyers can then just decide on their own how much to pay for the condition/presentation of the card without the grading company opinion on that aspect.

You should then see the huge price gaps for condition fall and the card doctors much less motivated.

I know it's a completely different collecting mindset, but one that can be just as rewarding and enjoyable. In the PSA slabbed photo world, photo type is identified but no mention of condition, alterations, etc. and photo collectors do not put large premiums on condition. Just look at the most expensive photo (to my knowledge) that's sold thus far...

Cobb

If it's the same card, then why is that upper right corner so much rounder in the SGC 5 example?

Maybe I can sneak some of these past the TPG's. I guess I have been ahead of this grading curve for decades.

Brian

I don't know, go ask Gary.

Part of the deception. It's the same card, but if someone wants to deny it who really cares at this point.

This is a good and relatively long-term solution. Maybe 25 years from now the counterfeits will be indistinguishable from the originals, but in the meantime we can still have fun.

+1000! When a 1914 CJ Joe Jackson comes, especially a pretty one in the year 2019, this card should get the attention of multiple and the best graders the TPG has to offer. If not for the reasons Orlando stated, how about the fact that it costs a small shit-ton to grade a card like this and the submitter paid for the right to have the best eyes on the card. Honestly, it’s robbery or negligence or both (in the lay sense), that a card of this ilk, costing so much to grade, gets through SGC and a guy on blowout forum catches it.

SGC, you messed up REAL bad here, and proves all this is less likely TPG fraud than just utter and total incompetence

Dealers race to the TPG booths on the early set up day of the National! Why? Because they have a light staff and they want to take advantage of the one day turn around at the National promo price! Not to mention, the grader behind the curtain is most likely one of the new kids working for them where they are taught to spend 30 seconds or less to grade.

The Leaf Jackie we have seen also was graded at the National and at least a couple of the others identified on BO.

The listing said the card was graded at last year's national. I'm sure every SGC employee at the show saw the card. So either they chose to ignore any signs the card was altered, the alteration was done so well as to not leave a detectable trace behind using whatever method they use, or it's not the same card.

My guess, assuming it is the same card, is that whatever is being done to these cards isn't leaving much behind to detect.

Maybe, although I'm guessing that card -- given the disparity in values these days between holders -- made a trip to PSA first.

That Shoeless Joe card was a $22,000 card before work was done on it -- and posters in the Musial thread on here were seriously trying to claim that no one would have the balls to alter a $3,000 card?

Yah when you've made millions 22K is just a wager you can well afford to lose.

I love this idea. Will probably never happen but I for one would be fully on board.

In the past...when speaking to people who are not in tune to this hobby who may be pickers...estate liquidators...pawn shop owners...buyers/sellers of silver/gold, etc. These people almost always felt that if PSA says this...or that...then it's fact.

And these people helped to cause the surge in valuations of many cards.

Now and in the near future when all these lay-people hear that PSA as well as the other TPG'ers cannot even tell if a card has been altered...that will eliminate many from even participating in the hobby.

Prices will plummet...investors will run for the hills. When it's all said and done all that will be left are the collectors.

I think David Hall rightly understood on day 1 the market potential for grading not just authenticating. And ironically, they may be better at grading than authenticating at this point.

Most of Corey's cards aren't even graded.:)

They're no dummies though. They have set up their products for obsolescence and subsequent resubmissions any number of times. If I were a betting man I would bet the announcement of photo grading isn't that far in the future.

Even if just assigning an Authentic or not opinion without regard to alteration? At least this way people can be more reassured of not buying reprints.

Fair enough, I haven't seen any evidence that they're regularly being fooled by counterfeits, but as has been alluded to, that day may be coming too.

As an aside I get it, but authentic and altered always sounded like an oxymoron to me.

But most scarce ungraded cards are valued based on the estimated grade they would receive. If the graded card market collapses so will these. I’m here for him, Barry. Consider me a beacon in the fog.

I am sure Corey is there for you too, Jay. :)

Pretty sad state when it feels like this is the best-case outcome for thr TPGs.

"Hey, look at us, we're not complicit, just completely incompetent."

Jeff, not a bad idea...but I'd submit to you, how about these levels...

-Authentic (unaltered)
-Authentic (altered)
-Rejected (fake)

Michael I was thinking the same thing with the Auth alt/unalt but how could we trust them to be able to discern that with all that’s going on.

i agree I like the 3 possibilities...but I also have little faith that they can determine.

Three possibilities means no Registry and less money. Not happening.

So what is the recourse. SGC should pay 60k back to the buyer? You guys tell me what should happen as apparently this is going on right now..

Yeah, only works if collectors give up all that nonsense and stop playing ball, really force PSA's hand.

And only Authentic or not, no faith in ability to detect alterations.

Won't happen, but this is a grading system I could get behind.

If that's what their guarantee states, then yes.