I got screwed over on the BST today!
 

Well it finally happened. I got screwed over right here on the BST by one of our own.

A card was listed for sale this morning and we agreed to a price of $3275 and I made an immediate PayPal FF payment. They agreed to ship tomorrow via overnight delivery.

This card was an upgrade for me so I called a friend that was interested in my lower condition card and he came over, we worked out a deal, he paid cash and left with the card. I had to sell it to to cover the cost of the new card.

This evening I get contacted by the seller, his situation has changed and he decided not to sell the card to me and refunded my $3275.

So now I'm out the new card and I no longer have my lower graded one. It will cost me MORE just to replace the one I sold to my friend today... Not to mention PayPal now has a hold on the refund of $3275 for 3-4 days.

Thanks Gobucsmagic74 for ruining my weekend.

Eric Kramer

I am very sorry Eric. As I mentioned in our PM's I will absolutely give you first crack at this card at the same price we agreed upon once I am able to find a suitable upgrade or replacement as a deal I had in place, which made this card available, was also reneged on. I'm not sure what else I can do. I don't get the issue with PayPal as I issued a straight refund, but I understand your frustration on all levels. Again, my sincerest apologies.

Wow, that's brutal. Sorry to hear that Eric.

I had the same guy (Gobucsmagic74) pull a really shady move on me about a year ago. I had a WTB thread open in the BST indicating which e95s I needed. He bought contacted a friend of mine (he didn't realize it was a friend of mine) and bought one of the cards I needed, then contacted me saying he would sell me the card for $200 more than he had just agreed to pay my friend. He was going to pay by check, so he was going to find out if he could flip it to me and make a huge profit off of me with no risk before actually paying for the card.

It's a shame that there are guys like that doing business on the board. But the good news is that 99.9% of my interactions on the BST have been positive.

I hope you can find a solution or at least get another copy of the card without being out too much money.

I just made a deal on the BST for an upgrade of my own, but I won't sell the lesser condition card until I get the upgrade in hand. This is a common phenomenon, and I don't really think anyone is to blame here in this instance.

This chain of events and your change in mind leaves me not only without your Mantle rookie, but now without my original one as well.

Technically, yes. But a deal is a deal. The $$$ has switched hands. Probably should've waited to have card in hand, but that's still crummy to have a deal in place, accept the money and, "whoops sorry, something changed on my end. Refund!!"

If this was a $100 card, I'd say just move on, but it's not. Kind of a garbage move if you ask me.

Lame. Honor the deal.

This would be no big deal if we were talking about a $50 card.

But when someone sells you a 1951 bowman Mantle and asks for a PayPal FF payment over $3k, they should know they are ready to sell and not in a possible position that may cause them to back out.

This makes me nauseous.

Crap move.

Where is that "ignore list" button again?

If anyone has a PSA 3 or 4 1951 bowman Mantle they are looking to sell, please PM me a picture and a price. I have a hole in my collection now that needs filling.

Actually Luke, I did pay by check and I did see your thread looking for the card AFTER I had already made the deal and sent the check out. You are absolutely incorrect in your assertion that I tried to make a deal with you prior to purchasing the card, although I do admit that I had not yet received the card. I won't apologize for flipping cards, if I didn't I wouldn't be able to finance my collection.

It shouldn't because it's inaccurate

agreed.

(for only the 3rd time, I think)

;)

Yeah, I get that. I'm just saying it is not a safe practice to dump a card you love for an upgrade without getting the upgrade in hand first. Stuff happens. Postal workers screw up. Deals fall through after digital cash changes hands.

Well, at least that's <s>impossibly convoluted</s> clear.

Another hobby fly-by-night type to avoid.

What do you need clarified Bill? I bought a card and offered it to someone who was looking for it in BST. The two were friends and decided I was doing something shady when I wasn't. The end.

I agree with ya Paul, but really it's beside the main point...the fact the the OP sold his card without having the new one in-hand is on him, but a sale is a sale and backing out is a shitty move.

IMO Dan should definitely honor the sale and I'd expect him to wake up tomorrow morning and make this right. I have a bad feeling this isn't going to work out well for him otherwise.

You agreed to purchase the card and then offered to sell it to me all in the same morning.

You bought it off the same BST where my WTB thread was located.

You really expect me (or anyone with a brain) to believe that you bought it for some reason other than to try to and flip to a specific person (me)? You just agreed to buy it (but didn't actually pay for it yet) at 9 AM because you really loved it, and then offered it to me at 11 AM because you didn't love it so much after all? You don't have to lie about it. You didn't commit a crime. It was just scummy.

And after I told you that I knew where (and how recently) you had got the card, you posted it in 3 different threads about how happy you were to add it to your collection. If you didn't feel guilty about anything, why did you do that?

I was happy to own it and I still am. Whether you want to believe that or not has no bearing on the truth of the matter, which is that I made a deal for the E95 Crawford (which I offered to pay Scott for via PayPal Gift, but he couldn't accept), saw that you were looking for one amongst others, and offered it to you. You intimated I offered it to you prior to making the deal which is not accurate and changes the entire dimension of the story. I apologized to Scott at the time and have since, and I still own the card to this day not that it matters.

Peter--I'm no lawyer, but didn't Eric have a contract. To cancel the contract wouldn't Eric have to agree? If it was cancelled unilaterally by the seller, and Eric loses money buying a new Mantle, can't he sue for damages?

Yep, completely agree with that. But as far as backing out of deal, yeah that sucks.

I agree that this was a sale unless both parties agreed to cancel it. I would like to see someone sell their house, get paid by the buyer, and then try to return the money and stay in the house because they decided they didn't want to move any more. I know a written contract wasn't signed over the Mick in this case, but a deal was struck and payment sent and received.

To try to put a positive spin on this for Eric, at least he got his money back (even if Paypal is holding it for a few days for some reason).

What happened is you got a raw deal and someone screwed you over, so you decided to pass the screw onto someone else that you made a deal with. that is wrong. if someone backed out on your deal, you DONT back out on the deal you subsequently made. that deal was not dependent on whether or not you received your card from the first guy as far as cozmo is concerned. That wasn't your deal with him. When you make a deal and you don't have the card in hand from the first guy, YOU are assuming that risk. Why are you putting that risk on the next guy??? What's wrong with you?

You needed to honor your deal and then deal with the first guy and not ruin cozmo's day while yours is saved. the first guy didn't screw over cozmo, he screwed you over, so why pass it along to the next innocent party. Be a man. Not sure what you can do? Honor your deal. It's a big pet peeve of mine when people do that. You should be kicked out for doing that. Who needs that?

+1...BE A MAN!!!

I don't hate you Dan, but I hate what you did...no room for this on our board. I second that you should take a break from the BST

wrong info.

Ha!

Maybe someone should call judge Judy.

I would say this is a perfect assessment of the situation. You definitely passed the bad goods along.

I know the heading over the BST says, "caveat emptor." But here it seems or should seem that caution isn't necessary. Obviously I am in error. Just my dos centavos, but I thing Gobucsmagic74 should be suspended from all activity on this board for a lengthy and substantial period. Too harsh? Don't think so. He deliberately and knowingly screwed a board member for his own self interests. In his twisted thinking, simply giving a PP refund makes it all ok. It doesn't. Not by a long shot. :mad:

This. Thank you, Travis! At 5:00 a.m. I'm not awake enough to write something as clearly as Travis did, but this is my sentiment exactly.

Dan-you chose to pass on the screw job to someone else....

Travis
 

Is 100% correct.

Sorry Eric. That's a lot of money to be playing around with there. And must be a really nice and difficult card to get.

I'll have to remember that username.

Pretty much it is a contract at that point both parties agreed on it and I believe that you're right. Both parties would have to agree to make the contract VOID.

I'm not a lawyer but I believe that your statement is correct.

Gobucsmagic the deal, as you seem to agree with the buyers version, was not predicated upon your securing a replacement card. An agreement was made, funds were sent, honor the deal!!!!!!

I would think he actually has grounds for a civil action that would require you to make specific performance.

Based on the facts presented it appears to me that GoBucsmagic is not an honorable person.

I agree that the deal should be honored, but can people calm down with the legal innuendos. No one is suing(let alone winning) a judgement for a failed BST transaction on a sportscard message board.

This......LMAO at all of the legal mumbo jumbo......

Hey I resemble that remark. :eek:

As some lawyers would say "Can I give you my business card?"

I feel badly for both parties involved. In the future, I hope BOTH people can learn something from this to ensure certain aspects of this failed transaction never happen again.

i think the first deal with the 1951 mantle is a black mark on gobucsmagic..but i dont see anything wrong about what he did with the flip with you...afterall, he already was locked in to pay for the card and he couldnt of been 100% sure you would of wanted the same card....could of still been a price issue or centering issue with the card....was no sure thing he would of been able to sell to you...

Why do you feel badly for a guy who RENEGED on a done deal? I don't get that.

Because now, more than likely, he is going to have a black mark by his name and no one will want to deal with him. In this business, especially when you do not deal with people face to face, and only though the computer, your reputation means more than anything. His future dealings will be affected by this dealing. And that is why I feel bad for him.

I don't get what you are saying at all. It's a problem completely of his own making. He should have a black mark by his name, he reneged on a done deal. If he wants the black mark erased, he can do the right thing, acknowledge that he made the wrong judgment, and honor the deal.

Yes..I'm not doubting you. One can still feel empathy.

Yes, and I feel badly for the victim here, not the perpetrator. What's the downside to doing the right thing, being temporarily without a 51 Mantle? I've been looking for months for the right one :mad: and I'm fine.

There's an old lawyers joke somewhere in here:

Sir, there's a Sue waiting for you in your office.

51 Bowman
 

Great Peter. Now both guys know they do not have the right one, and if it does come along, there you are

I feel badly for him as well...maybe next time he won't sell his card until he has the replacement in hand. Like I said, BOTH people can learn something from this transaction.

I don't see what's wrong here...it is the the BST afterall.

Buy
Sell
Take-Back

It's pretty simple, really. You can be a man, and honor your word. You may not get your replacement right away, and you may end up paying more than you would have. Is this card really worth ruining your reputation over?

Would implementing a fee for using the BST board eliminate these problems ?

That has been suggested before and won't happen on this watch.

Forget about getting lawyers involved, just send Papelbon.:eek:

That Dan did not even see that as an option -- thus the "what else can I do?" -- is pretty disturbing.

From afar I see both sides. But in the end I think a card is yours until it's not yours and even though it might rub people the wrong way, keeping your card is your right. I think it'll make people less willing to do business with you, but I also don't see any real harm done if funds are returned.

The secondary sales seems independent of the transaction between buyer and seller, though I understand they add to the frustration.

My experiences on BST have been overwhelmingly positive, but I have had three bad ones…two moderately bad in a piss you off kind of way, the other probably a seven on a scale of 1 to 10.

Since you sold the card to a friend, can't you just explain what happened and buy it back? Seems reasonable to me. You are then at least no worse off for the experience.

Perhaps Eric unlike Dan is a man who keeps his word and doesn't want to do that.

That analysis would apply equally if Dan had reneged because he found someone willing to pay more. Would you bless that too?

Or the obvious...GoBucs got a better offer somewhere and the card is (re)sold, so he cannot honor the deal...no idea if this is true but it would be simple to just honor the deal and move on...I cannot see another reason not to honor the deal.

Joshua

This is how it was done at the business school I went to :D

http://www.net54baseball.com/picture...ictureid=19165

I agree with this statement, but disagree with how you are applying it to this situation.

Once fully paid for, the OP was the owner of the card. The seller may have still had possession of the card, but ownership had changed hands.

So yes, a card is yours until its not, but I think in this case.....it was not the seller's card anymore.

So if an instant after the deal was done Dan's house had burned down and the card with it, Eric would have been out of luck because he was now the owner? No, because Dan still had title according to the law, until he completed his obligations with respect to shipping.

Section 2-401(2) of the UCC provides that “title passes to the buyer at the time and place at which seller completes his performance with reference to the physical delivery of the goods.”

But all that, to me, is beside the point.

Dan, bad deal on your part, bud. Once you agreed to the deal, you should have honored it. Once you received the funds, that pretty much sealed it. While nothing legally was done wrong, and this isn't something any of us haven't seen before or are surprised that it happens, it is, for lack of a better term, shady. I will be sure to avoid any deals with you in the future, and I imagine others on this board will or already are.

Leon, do you think it should be a BST rule that you have to have the card in hand before putting it up for sale/trade? I agree that there is no logical way to enforce this, but just having the rule would possibly prevent at least some of these shady characters from trying this here.

What do you think?

Always the truculent one ;)

+1

I'm not asking for anyone's sympathy or support on this one and furthermore understand Eric's frustration and those who feel my decision is/was dishonorable, but at the end of the day the card is mine to do with what I choose. If some of you don't agree and opt not to do business with me in the future then so be it. There are many, many other avenues available for selling cards at our collective disposal so losing this particular avenue to a percentage of the board is not going to influence my decision one way or another. Neither will anyone's opinion of me as a person, seller, or otherwise.

That said, I have already expressed to Eric that I will absolutely sell him the card (which I do indeed still possess) at the price we agreed upon once I am able to locate and secure a suitable replacement. I know many of you feel I should do that now, and although you are certainly entitled to that opinion, that is not the course I'm choosing to take with the card at this time. This will be my last comment on this particular subject, although I do reserve the right to defend myself against any additional erroneous accusations.

I think the fewer rules the better, just like govt. Less is better. As long as no one is out any money and it's not too frequent of an occurance then I prefer to stay out of it.

As a long-time Seller on both EBay & right here on Net54, I can't imagine reneging on a deal once the $ had changed hands, EXCEPT if BOTH parties were in agreement to cancel.

GoBucs should think a bit an do the right thing---COMPLETE the deal w/ Cosmo!

Your reputation is at stake, if that means ANYTHING to you.

(Written BEFORE Post 67 was showing ( so apparently he doesn't)

See his post above. It doesn't. Not being without a Mantle rookie means more.

Good grief. Bryce Harper would call this a "clown deal".

Personally, I don't see how holding on to it for a finite amount time outweighs the amount of crap you're taking here, but it's your life.

Also, as crappy as this situation is, it sounds like the OP is (or at least should be) more pissed at himself for hastily selling his card. I understanding wanting to get your cash out of it to help cushion the blow, but it could have waited two days til the new one showed up.

The OP had every right to expect Dan would deliver the card as promised.

Actually at one point, the seller had both the card and the payment.

Just because he still had possession of the card does not make it his.

Eric honored his portion of the agreement by paying the seller.

The seller's next move should have been to put that card in the mail.

Its that simple!

Lesson learned by both the OP and me as well. Too bad it had to happen like this.

Excellent. Count me among those who have no interest in ever doing business with you. Thanks in advance for your agreement never to bid on anything I might list in the BST. Life is too short to deal with people like you if it isn't absolutely necessary.

100% agree

I think it's one of these...

BUST A DEAL, FACE THE WHEEL.

http://i741.photobucket.com/albums/x...pspppbhni5.jpg

Just to play devil's advocate here ......how come it is perfectly acceptable on Ebay for a buyer to purchase a card, send the money via paypal, and then have a change of heart and want to cancel the transaction?? A seller is never afforded the luxury of cancelling a transaction. That has happened to me there more times than I care to imagine. Is the BST held to a different standard than Ebay?? Again, just pondering here.....

It's not. Whoever said that it was?

Just because ebay may allow something doesn't make it ethical.