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Even the so called good guys...ugly hobby?
I thought I would bring to light to the members of this forum a chain of emails I was privy too as of recent that I found very disturbing.
I was forwarded these emails because the content had direct discussions about me. I don’t care to get into full detail as I think it has little bearing on the real issue that lay within the email string which was accidentally sent. Basically Scott Elkins had issues with me being involved as a key member of the Chan investigation and felt I was taking undo credit. This is of course silly as I was the direct link to the FBI and it was my inspection of the cards which gave the needed evidence to visit Mr. Chan which of course lead to the snowballing of unfortunate events regarding him and the site T206museum.com. I was very clear on the team effort in my post which can be seen here. http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=112134 I have no explanation as to why Mr. Elkins has issue with a positive thing done by a team of collectors for the good of the hobby but clearly he does. It’s very clear that Mr. Elkins has issue with me and others which is very apparent by browsing his site above. I have no doubt he harbors anger with me as he has made all too clear. I have had my shots all chicken shots but he has had more than enough payback and I’m fine with it. I have little doubt a lot of this comes from the banning from Full Count in which I had nothing to do with the moderators made that move. It just happened Scott and I were in the mix at the time. While I find a lot of the stuff as vile venting and uncalled for vulgarity and false accusations he does have his rights to speak free as do we. HOWEVER I ASK ALL OF A YOU A PERSONAL FAVOR I DON’T WANT THIS TO BE THREAD ABOUT SHOTS ABOUT ELKINS AND CHICKENS/UNDERPRINTS ETC. SO PLEASE CHECK THOSE AT THE DOOR PLEASE. I DON’T WANT THE REAL PURPOSE OF THIS POST TO BE LOST IN THE MIX OF CHEAP HUMOR WHICH I’M GULITY OF MYSELF FROM TIME TO TIME. Recently on the other main baseball card forum (Full Count) Kevin Saucier insinuated that what we had done as a team Jim, Dan, Rob, FBI and I was not really needed as he assumed it was common knowledge to him and not worthy of discussing. "Perhaps I am a little naive but I thought most collectors knew they were altered. I saw them on the t206museum was immediately suspicious and never really followed them. Considered it somewhat of a joke and a no-brainer. Feel the same about most of the stamped backed cards. Just "way" too easy to do!Now that I read the stories I am shocked to find that collectors were spending serious money these overprints. Hope they all get their money back." Jim and Dan and myself disagreed Kevin did return and apologize that it was not meant in that way etc. Which we accept or at least I do as I will not speak for Dan and Jim. Now that you have a bit of background we can move to the point of my post. Kevin Saucier had recently emailed Scott Elkins asking him if he could ask Jim and Dan to lay off him. ----- Original Message ----- From: Kevin S. To: Scott Elkins Sent: Sunday, May 10, 2009 3:44 PM Subject: RE: He's at it again! Perhaps you can send a quick email to Dan and Jim so they can get off the Wonka brow beat Kevin band wagon. I expect this kind of stuff from Jon but not from Dan. I am just trying to fly below the radar and keep a very low profile. Besides they have no idea what I did or did not know about the investigation of this card. Oh...btw, outstanding job! You and Jim are the guys who really did all the work. __________________________________________________ ____________ This is crazy because I only responded after Jim and Dan responded and we all basically said the same thing. If he knew all along why not bring it up etc. Here’s where this gets very scary to myself and many others I have run this by. In the same email Scott forwarded from Kevin he left the full string of emails between Scott and Kevin dating as far back as April 2nd 2008. Upon reading the entire string I was shocked to read the following string and almost fell out of my chair with disgust and shock! ________________________________________ From: joejackson1919@comcast.net To: onlychild@hotmail.com Subject: T206 Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2008 16:42:15 -0700 Hi Kevin, I hope all is well your way! I was wondering if you are still inspecting cards for people. I have a T206 with a United Cigars ad on the back that is printed UNDER the Sweet Caporal ad. Anyway, to make a long story short, some of the Net 54ers are trying to say it is printed OVER the ad and simply a back stamp overprint. I was wondering if I could send this card to you if it does not sell and get your opinion on it - overprint or underprint? I will pay whatever fee is associated with the service. Here is a link to the auction http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...m=160277961170 Thanks in advance! Scott Elkins ----- Original Message ----- From: Kevin S. To: Scott Sent: Wednesday, September 03, 2008 5:13 PM Subject: RE: T206 Hi Scott, Yeah I looking at that thread yesterday. Those guys are beyond cruel. Got pissed reading that whole mess. Sure I'll look at it. I don't charge anything, never have...and I've looked at thousands of cards. Collectors are funny, those that send cards regularly show gratitude in other ways because they know I won't take a cent....I'm just glad I can help! Good timing, last year or so I have been studying T206 backs and the printing. Just send it over, I'll give you an honest opinion: All the best, Kevin __________________________________________________ _____________________ From: joejackson1919@comcast.net To: onlychild@hotmail.com Subject: Close Up Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2008 18:20:01 -0700 Kevin, Here is a close up I just took at 800% with my scanner. I am going to try and post this pic in the auction (if it is not too large for eBay). One should definitely be able to tell more about the back with this pic (fingers crossed it works on eBay!). Best Regards, Scott ----- Original Message ----- From: Kevin S. To: Scott Sent: Wednesday, September 03, 2008 7:12 PM Subject: RE: Close Up Scott, And here I thought you liked me because I'm a disabled AF vet. I think it's safe to say that the word "clowns" should be replaced with "assholes". Before they judge others, some should take a good long look in the mirror. Our secret - I have never sold an altered card but for those few "true asses" on 54, I have made sure that each already has or will have an altered card in their collection (some more than one)....it will be their guess as to which one. I'll tell them exactly that some day. Again...I didn't make a penny (it actually cost me) but well worth it :). Have to say with that close up scan, it's looking very favorable. I can see the SC over the cigar print. I'll save my final opinion for when I see it live but it looks like a no-brainer. Some friendly advice...perhaps you should tone down your ebay listing with less personal statements. Wouldn't want to see it pulled or give them more fuel for the fire. Just a thought. All the best, Kevin ________________________________________ From: joejackson1919@comcast.net To: onlychild@hotmail.com Subject: This has your name written all over it! Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 10:55:06 -0700 Hee Hee http://www.flickr.com/photos/calvind...7607705122913/ Regards, Scott ----- Original Message ----- From: Kevin S. To: joejackson1919@comcast.net Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2008 10:48 AM Subject: RE: This has your name written all over it! Hi Scott, I wish...but no. Although I can make many or some of the colors disappear and come close, I don't know of a way to keep the yellows, name, borders and the light shades. Yellow ink is about the 2nd to go. I've tried man many times to recreate this and can't come close to the detail. Kevin ________________________________________ IN CASE YOU MISSED IT, THIS IS THE PART YOU NEED TO READ VERY CAREFULLY! “Our secret - I have never sold an altered card but for those few "true asses" on 54, I have made sure that each already has or will have an altered card in their collection (some more than one)....it will be their guess as to which one. I'll tell them exactly that some day. Again...I didn't make a penny (it actually cost me) but well worth it :) .” Kevin Saucier It is no secret that myself and many others have questioned Kevin as to his motives and open interest in altered cards. Kevin has always taken the stance that this is for the good of the hobby and done to educate the collectors. For the most part we all have accepted that some including myself have asked why Kevin’s opinion should count over that of the established businesses such as SGC and PSA. Some have also asked why the overall secrecy and nebulous nature of his posts. Here are my main issues which I would like to see Kevin address here right away? As this has a scary parallel to Chan showing off work, hyping activities etc. Although Chan did this from anonymity vs. Kevin in here and in our faces. 1. Why would Kevin if he is a good guy admit to planting if you will fraudulent or altered cards in select individual’s collections? Not only saying it’s been done but explains that there was cost involved and this was a directed attack at certain individuals. 2. When Scott laughed and asked if the current card which happens to be in the collection of a fellow board member was a creation of Kevin’s. Why did Kevin reply “I wish” above he wishes he was responsible for fraudulent activities and doctored cards to fellow collectors why? I have provided many past links of discussion that have been about Kevin and his services/talents or that he has been a major part of. http://www.network54.com/Forum/15365...206+or+others- http://www.network54.com/Forum/15365...+Kevin+Saucier http://www.network54.com/Forum/15365...ill+be+in+luck. http://www.network54.com/Forum/15365...e+1933+Goudeys Talks about cards he altered getting past graders... http://www.network54.com/Forum/15365...-+Adding+Value http://www.network54.com/Forum/15365...at+to+look+for http://www.network54.com/Forum/15365...+caramel+cards http://www.network54.com/Forum/15365...ier+Has+Spoken Facts, openly admits to doctoring cards and placing them into the hobby and certain collections. Has been a self proclaimed expert has reviewed peoples valuable collections and items. Has continually offered services to major auction houses. When the original recipient of the email brought up the quote the response from Kevin was that the comment was an innocent inside joke about Harris cards I own…I find this absurd I own 2 Harris cards and have openly discussed them here http://www.network54.com/Forum/15365...A+8+for+review This was an unsolicited admission not a joke IMO. Please collectors be aware that it’s not always the folks in the shadows that can be up to no good. Now I have no proof Kevin has done this short of his admission above but that alone begs the question why would one ever say such a thing? Unless Kevin has a real good explanation I’m very cautious of him and what he may have leaked out into the hobby as of today based on those comments. But I am willing to hear Kevin out and await his response as I ask all of us to do. Cheers, John |
Eek gads...here we go!
This hobby...like the game it's modeled after...has always been great...and has always had an ugly side...and always will when large amounts of money...and ego are involved. pu |
An ugly situation turns much uglier. This is definitely a buyer beware hobby and if anything the last few weeks/months has taught us that it's far more important to do your own homework and not rely on the grading companies. I think it's time to assume a good number of cards in this hobby have been altered and are already residing in holders. The obvious fakes (to those with knowledge) ie the black OM overprints and the T206 Doyle PSA have to mean that many other not so obvious cards have also slipped past the graders. That's an ugly admission from Kevin and I sure hope it was said in bravado and there's not truth to it.
ugh. |
And you guys are always knocking memorabilia and autographs for their shadyness. This is crazy stuff. I think the sad truth is that it permeates all area of the hobby and probably all hobbies where money is involved.
I was talking on the phone to a former major leaguer that collects the other day (not cards) and he had no idea there was even all this stuff going on because he had never been on the forum. It blew him away that there was so much corruption in the hobby. Rhys |
Wow... that's sure is a lot of information :eek:
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Nope never did it...that's the truth. Was just venting in anger one day and told a white-lie to Scott. Which, with your current (and past) attacks, is easy to see why. BTW...posting personal emails, regardless of the subject matter, is just uncalled for.
I wouldn't have the slightest idea on how to get a specific card through to someone. I have no idea where anyone lives, let alone know them personally. Sorry to disappoint but to the best of my knowledge, none are in the hobby. All the doctored cards I made are either in my personal collection marked "altered" or with Mike Baker labeled as "altered." Was just mouthing off in a heated moment. |
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"Great point and so true. It's everywhere. Sadly."
Anywhere money is (and great amounts of it), "it" is too. I fear a much higher % of graded cards are altered than any of us would like to believe. It is sort of like the "steroids" of card collecting. |
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I also believe that there are a greater number of altered cards in holders than most collectors wish to admit. I think this will come out over time. As others have posted, there is too much easy money to be made here.
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The really scary thing is that as the scammers technology and skill get better the problem will only get worse.
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Kevin, an admission of fraud in a private email is hardly a "white lie" especially when it reflects behavior that you've publicly claimed you believe to be so wrong.
Additionally, you might be the only person in the history of civilization who felt the need to "lie" to impress a bottom-feeder like Elkins. While it's a little disturbing to read of your disappointment at not being able to alter one of my cards, at least we all got to see you and Elkins in flagrante delicto, laughing it up as you both took joy in the thought of secretly altering cards and releasing them into our hobby. |
Thanks for the response.
“Which, with your current (and past) attacks, is easy to see why.” I disagree Kevin read the links above never made personal attacks. I questioned your expertise and motives as to why we all should take your posts as gospel. I also asked many times why your opinion rules over third party graders. No I don’t think it’s as easy to see why. I would never lie about doing fraudulent acts because someone bummed me out occasionally on a forum. There’s a whole board above in which several of us get ragged on really heavy…don’t believe me type Leon’s name into Google. Yet I don’t see anyone of us making any such outlandish claims, or little white lies as you say. “BTW...posting personal emails, regardless of the subject matter, is just uncalled for.” Disagree once again emails posting that you think Wonka’s a douche or I dont like Wonka. I agree no need to be on this board take it off line and get over it. Emails in which a self proclaimed expert who has spent years on this board posting creations and bragging about getting cards past 3rd party graders, making outlandish admissions of fraudulent activity. That 100% belongs on here…I don’t buy blowing off steam and white-lie you and Scott were discussing your disgust with the response about the underprint Scott owns from the folks here. And if this lie or joke was directed at me please point out where in this thread I upset you….funny I never had a single post in the thread…. http://www.network54.com/Forum/15365...ier+Has+Spoken So I understand you were mad at me or net54 and made incriminating comments and lies to another person in an offline email because you were upset….right? This ranks up there with I made these for “Showmanship” I never meant to sell them…. Also wishing you had put fake cards in a fellow board members collection is also due to being mad. Blown away that I'm the only one shocked by this load. Funny we get pitchforks and torches and baracade Chan into a corner..yet Mastro and auction houses get away with bloddy murder and we contiune to turn a blind eye. We even have a laid back approach to comments like the above. I guess we as a hobby get upset only after someone gets taken or burned.. |
Hmmm. Not sure what to make of this. I've been neither a particular doubter nor fan of Kevin and what he has talked about in the past. But this - don't look good.
Random thoughts, struggling for order: The first thing that comes to mind is that Kevin has held himself out as a defender of the hobby against alterations. This isn't like Joe Schmoe said he was going to sneak altered cards into certain collections. It's not even Joe Schmoe that said he was a great card alterer. Kevin has particularly said that the reason for starting web sites and posting on various boards was to try to protect the hobby. How does that square with the comment about putting fakes in some collections? It's vaguely like (not exactly like, but similar) the t206museum offering COA's. Protecting the hobby against fraud. Another comparison to t206museum (just since it is on everyone's mind right now - not saying the two cases are directly parallel). t206 put altered cards out on a public website, for all to see and debate and pick apart - a visible attempt to snare whatever generic fish swam by. Kevin's claims of putting altered cards out there aren't broad and generic to the public. He specifically targets individuals that he feels have crossed him or pissed him off. Singling out specific persons seems shadier - or at least like a different motive. Could he have done it? Shoot, most of his posts have centered around his ability to alter cards in undetectable ways and fool even the most advanced and professional collectors, graders and dealers. So by his own words, he could have done it - at least as to the alteration part. I'm also having a hard time with the two explanations? First it was explained as a joke, then as a heated comment. From reading the email string, it seems like neither. Heated comments tend to be threats, not statements of a past act. Whether as a joke or heated comment, it seems like it would be more along the lines of "Well I could this that or the other thing to these guys, and maybe someday I will!" It doesn't seem really common to me that, as a heated comment, someone would claim to have already done something. It also doesn't seem to have been a heated discussion in general (assuming that all parts are there). I've seen Scott Elkins in heated discussions. He has a very passionate writing style that makes it impossible to miss when he is mad at something - using capital-letter phrases, and being very descriptive as to what has him pissed off. I don't see that Scott is at all heated in this chain. More like some side comments about others, but in general the context seems far more focused on the actual underprint card he and Kevin were discussing. And the one email that contains the comment doesn't seem to follow at all - the topic sort of comes out of the blue. Don't know what that means - just that it does not seem consistent with either a joke or a heated comment. I don't know what it all means, just that it doesn't look good for someone that has claimed (and backed it up with demonstrations) to be able to make undetectable alterations but has also stated repeatedly that it is to protect the hobby. The only thing that keeps me from thinking it actually happened is the practical problem of trying to steer one specific card into the collection of one specific person. That's the only loose thread left in my mind. Not good. Not a good week for the hobby. J |
OK. Sorry for another long post, but I just finally put my finger on exactly what bothers me so much about this and about the t206museum thing.
For t206m, I am exactly - exactly! - the person that could have been harmed by something like that if I had been financially able to get in that game. I've collected since 1998 or 1999 or so. I consider myself fairly knowledgeable about cards, but am in that intermediate stage of expertise that would have led me right to those cards. Like I know enough to know that the black overprint would be extremely rare, but am still too green to know the history of the red overprints, the fact that the blacks all started appearing in 2000 (when I was still so new this would not have been on my radar). I'm not the immersed expert that had fuller context. And similarly with this Kevin thing. I'm unnerved because if someone like Kevin wanted to get an altered card into my collection, he probably could - and maybe an expensive one too. I've progressed enough to think I know what's good and bad, but up against really sophisticated alterations that fool graders - not a chance. I am really uncomfortable reading that someone would make even a casual threat like that. Because right now, I feel like the biggest thing that protects me from advanced frauds like black overprints and expert alterations is my belief that people in this hobby just don't do that sort of thing. I don't like realizing that they do, or might. J |
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This thread is another disturbing topic....I don't know Kevin but after reading all this it's hard to rationalize his explanation. Think it's time to go watch the NBA playoffs.
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Kevin
I agree Kevin did not express himself very well but it seems highly unlikely he could, especially without selling them, place specific cards in specific people's collections. I give him the benefit of the doubt here. Real card doctors attempt to fly under the radar, Kevin has always been very upfront about his experiments etc.
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Of course, there are a lot of assumptions in there. |
I agree with Peter. I assumed bravado (or lying). Kevin I think if he wanted to could do a lot of damage to this hobby, but it's always been my view that he was trying to help the hobby.....things seemed to turn ugly towards him on Net54 when he gave Scott Elkins an opinion on the underprint/overprint Union Leader stamp that most here disagreed with. No excuse for saying that kind of stuff even if it was in confidence, but still it's a bit far-fetched to believe he placed altered cards into many of the Net54 posters collections.
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Kevin
To me this is not even in the same league as the Chan stuff. I have never even seen kevin post cards for sale and certainly not thousand dollar cards. Kevin has been open about what he is doing and I found many of his post and test my insightful. In any case it seemed to me more like bragging, granted never a good thing to do.
I do think that JK made a good point that maybe he reviewed cards and didnt give the true feedback. This could happen for many reasons, some good and some not so much. I for one would hate to tell someone that their most prized card is altered, bleh. I hate telling friends that their 80's cards are worthless when they think they have a jackpot. Also I know he is close to Jim C and how much he prizes his collection and would not want to be the one to tell him one of his best cards might be altered and with 20,000 graded PSA 8's im sure more than a couple are altered. That said even if kevin feels a card is altered do we really know? I have two cards that PSA and SGC disagree on, one thinks its trimmed and the other said its fine so how do we really know. |
"I do think that JK made a good point that maybe he reviewed cards and didnt give the true feedback. This could happen for many reasons, some good and some not so much. I for one would hate to tell someone that their most prized card is altered, bleh."
Scott understood but do you think I enjoyed telling the owners of the Hart card who I consider close friends their five figure card and pride of their T206 back collection was a fake? The point is even that argument holds little water for me if you're out to make the hobby a better place you can't just do that for your pals or hold back info to protect your feelings or someone else’s IMO. Besides I think the comments Kevin made were very telling to me regardless of how you dice it. I never did considered Kevin quite the white knight a lot of folks did but I wasn't turned off to him either. I just always chalked Kevin up to be somewhat of a self promoting business man with an idea for a 4th party review service for big dollar cards. Not unlike the card pricing site business startups awhile back using the board as a platform etc. Now after reading this I'm pretty clear and have come to the conclusion I would never send Kevin any $$$ cards and his creditability with me is way below that of any of the 3rd party grading companies. Do I think Kevin is a master forger nope I think Kevin is his own biggest fan in that area. I do feel that honest folks don’t say stuff like that or even allude to it joke or not that's what really bothers me. I also thought the folks on here should know. I would feel pretty bad if Kevin did turn out bad later on and folks who were sending him cards got burned in someway. With that said I do respect all of your opinions that's what is great about discussions like this. Cheers, John |
Kevin and Jim C.
My recollection is that the last time Jim C. spoke on the subject he said Kevin had NOT actually reviewed any cards for him.
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I agree that it's hard to imagine he's done this, as I stated in my first post, because of the logistical difficulty of getting one particular card into the hands of one particular person.
But what bothers me a lot - a ton - is wondering if that has been the only reason it hasn't happened. Because it sure looks to me like the rest of it is there - the desire to do it, maybe the intent to do it, the skill to do it, possibly even the plotting or trying to figure out how to do it. And Dan, bravado is definitely a reasonable first read. But it bothers me that it was so unsolicited and that it was a claim of something already done. My read is that this is something he has at least considered at a level beyond idle musings. And given that he is able to make some really sophisticated alterations, that is a scary thought. J |
Joann- Kevin has been a good guy and despite his odd post I will give him the benefit of the doubt. But there are many people with paper restoration skills, and a percentage of them are doing bad things. And many of the cards they have expertly repaired have been submitted to grading services. I have absolutely no idea how many get caught, but I can say with certainty a percentage of them get slabbed. And these cards have circulated around the hobby. Many of them will continue to transact and never be detected, others will be intercepted. It's very unfortunate, but it's out there.
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all I will say
All I will say on this subject is that
Birds of a feather flock together. (pun intended...sorry Jon (sic) I couldn't resist)...:D |
I wish I understood Leon's cryptic message.:confused:
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birds/flock/chickens/feathers?
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Barry, he's not talking about you....he's talking about Kevin and Elkins. While I think Elkins is pond scum I also don't believe he is out to screw the hobby over.
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Kevin is the least of the hobby's worries, for the reasons stated by Barry, among others.
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Thanks Dan.
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I would say that the least of the hobby's worries are individuals that want to spend money on slabbed cards to build Registry sets thereby driving up prices on certain cards.
A guy who has created fake cards in the past and talks about putting them out into our community while speaking privately to a degenerate like Elkins? Probably not a major worry but certainly someone I wouldn't let near my collection. Or the poultry section of the supermarket. |
Peter S
I respectfully disagree with your last statement. Not even close. I can think of a thousand things that are less worrisome. I don't know if Kevin was talking tongue in cheek in his email but it doesn't appear that way. This puts a nail in that coffin as far as any respect there was on my part....it's completely gone and probably always will be. How could anyone ever trust that person to look at a card and give an unbiased opinion given the statements made? And no, just like our dear Mr.Chan....I ain't buying the "it was just a joke".
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Was anyone but me "offended" by the pics of "Joann as Wonder Woman"? (But at the same time, I kind of liked the Lichtman pic!)
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Leon
In my opinion, we should be worried about the numerous people who are altering cards for commercial purposes and the numerous people who are knowingly selling them (and thereby facilitating the card doctors) -- not Kevin, as to whom there is no suggestion that he has done that.
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I still think there is something worse about targeting individuals as a revenge kind of thing. I understand that card doctors that put bad cards out there for commercial purposes on a generic basis are an issue. But the idea that someone would do it in a targeted way really sets me all wrong on this.
I can't articulate why it is that targeting people for bad cards seems worse, but it does. And as to the pictures, I think it's hilarious. He's trying to imitate Wonka's great use of photos and photoshopping, but it's a pretty superficial imitation. J |
"a joke my a$$" great job jon, and for making it public, now the whole collecting world knows of kevin, "alert" the grading co.'s, that is a joke, unreal is a good word......leon please take down his link for his website....btw if it were a joke why not say so next sentence or email??????? answer we that riddler....i always felt someone that alters cards for the hell of it were a little shady.....now we know why.......imagine what we dont know?????? very very scary....again great job jon.....like always...
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Often, the easiest way to hide is right out in the open.
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Even I'm pictured on that other thread...hey, I've been called worse.:cool:
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As a wise friend of mine said, I'm sure the grading companies are kicking themselves now about not taking Kevin up on his offer to work with them.
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It's something like that...I think I'm guilty by association...you know, part of that mythical Net54 clique. That's okay, I'm in a good mood today, I can take it (and I've been called Sloth before, in the schoolyard).
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Peter
I guess we will agree to disagree on this one. I have precedence for the way I feel. I think, as Joann so eloquently stated, there is something different and much, much worse about doing something and targeting a group or person as opposed to a situation done
indiscriminately. A while back I was asked how I could be friendly with Mastro Auctions IF (and that is still an "if" so far) they shill bid on a lot I won. My answer was the same as it is now. If they did it and targeted me then I would not be friendly with them anymore. If they did it across the board then it's not so personal. It's still bad, and should be punished (again, if they did it) but not like it was done to me personally. All members of Net54 should have a big problem with what Kevin said, imo. Or you can just stick your head in the sand like an ostrich (another bird pun)....and make believe it never happened. |
Doug Allen came right on this forum and said that Mastro auctions "prepares" cards for grading which included removing creases.
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speaking of auction houses
Wouldn't it be interesting if they disclosed who their consignors were.
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Dan....prepping of cards
He also came back on the board and said they quit doing that. I think to true collectors there are mixed feelings on removing a crease or wrinkle. I am sort of undecided on it myself but I might also be the large minority and most might have an issue with it....At any rate, if I am not mistaking, they said it wasn't worth the benefit for the grief (or perception) and they quit doing it. I am pretty sure they aren't the only auction house that was doing it.....For the record Scott B and I made it a rule not to touch a card, from day 1. best regards
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http://www.network54.com/Forum/15365...+Beloved+Hobby |
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Barry I love ya man I hope you know that! :)
But if I’m being honest I’m a little surprised that you are so quick to disregard Kevin’s comments. As a person purely your choice but you are a rare exception here and walk the fine line of a collector/fellow member but more importantly a leading auction house. Not saying we string anyone up but as an auction house owner not sure I would be so publicly forgiving of Kevin’s comments. :confused: Cheers, John |
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As a casual highend cardbuyer all this talk of altering, doctering etc,,, is rather disturbing. Im really glad I dont collect oddities, seems like to me this is the biggest area to fraud someone. After reading this the so called experts of detecting this type of behaviour may in fact be the ones to worry about. Very disturbing. :eek: |
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<a href="http://s206.photobucket.com/albums/bb189/jvb6034/Humor/?action=view¤t=Lynda-Carter---Wonder-Woman--C10102.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb189/jvb6034/Humor/Lynda-Carter---Wonder-Woman--C10102.jpg" border="0" alt="Wonder Woman"></a> |
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One thing I always found really odd was the direction Kevin took on some of these things.
“I wish...but no. Although I can make many or some of the colors disappear and come close, I don't know of a way to keep the yellows, name, borders and the light shades. Yellow ink is about the 2nd to go. I've tried man many times to recreate this and can't come close to the detail.” Why do you have to try and make forgeries and altered/trimmed cards to understand them or know how to debunk them? Perhaps I can see this on a very very small percentage of things where having firsthand knowledge could come in handy, but on others it makes no sense to me. Example Kevin trimming cards…plenty of trimmed cards out there to look at to know what to look for no need trimming cards and sneaking them past grading companies. Bleaching cards why? We know why the T206’s below are the way they are they missed part of the color process of the lithography printing process. No mystery why to try and replicate them which he clearly says he’s tried above? http://photos.imageevent.com/piojohn.../0164_1_lg.jpg I was able to examine the Old Mill OP and debunk those and even explain to you guys what to look for and why they were bad. I didn’t need to make a stamp and start making my own overprints to understand what to look for too debunk them...this method has always seemed very odd to me. Also we bust on grading companies all the time how does figuring out ways to sneak things past them make the situation better or make their jobs any easier. I agree with the person who compared it too sneaking a knife past airport security your no National hero just kind of a putz. Most of that sneaking stuff past PSA and SGC stuff was self serving at best to make Kevin appear to be smarter than the 3rd party guys no wonder they didn’t welcome him with open arms. And after seeing what Kevin wrote in those emails perhaps it was self serving in more way than one…just food for thought. Cheers, John |
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Hey John- allow me to rephrase:
I think what Kevin said in the email was dreadful, but unless I am forgetting something he seemed to be a straight shooter up until you posted that. Do I think he is being honest when he says he didn't mean what he said? Probably not, but I'm giving him a few points for past good behavior. I do understand you are angry, however; and you have been a great friend so I will support you, of course. |
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And I understand the point system..LOL :) |
Dan ok fair points but here are the only two possible outcomes based on Kevin’s comments IMO.
A.) Kevin is braggart and blowhard who likes to tell stories (Incriminating) offline in private emails. Which means he isn’t 100% truthful with what he discusses which blows his creditability as a non-biased expert in the field of doctored cards. B.) The very clear nature of his statements are just that he’s bragging about genuine things that he has done to alter cards and place them in the hobby out of pure spite. This would make him a Patrick Chan type offender. Either one is not good (A.) makes him not trustworthy and (B.) makes him a criminal...even in the link above to the Nodgrass post from 2008 Kevin says… “I would really like the opportunity to examine one of these fake Nodgrass cards in person.” http://www.network54.com/Forum/15365...+Beloved+Hobby Would you send cards to a person who has typed what he typed regardless of point (A.) or (B.) stance? For years now anytime anyone ever asked him a question he has always come from a stance of how dare you question my integrity or motives. This from a guy who popped up out of nowhere as an expert 2 or so years ago? :confused: His response to me in a previous thread. http://www.network54.com/Forum/15365...e+1933+Goudeys “I have no problem showing my various alterations that have been graded but as typical I find your arrogance and demeaning tone insulting to say the least. Here are just "a few" examples of some cards that were not just slightly altered or simply soaked....those can always get past. These were testing the limits in various ways. I can only imagine this will still not satisfy your relentless attempt to try and degrade and demoralize. I am quite sure that you will find some other way to continue your antagonistic questioning.” Well not only do I still question you Kevin but I’m glad I did! http://www.network54.com/Forum/15365...206+or+others- “John, think what you'd like but a transaction with me would all but guarantee the card would not be altered." I will respond to that comment from June 10th 2007 with a quote of yours…. “Our secret - I have never sold an altered card but for those few "true asses" on 54, I have made sure that each already has or will have an altered card in their collection (some more than one)....it will be their guess as to which one. I'll tell them exactly that some day. Again...I didn't make a penny (it actually cost me) but well worth it .” Kevin Saucier |
Sorry, I didn't mean angry with me, I meant angry at the email....there's too much fightin' going on. I'm just trying to take the high road. I'm tired of being at odds with so many different people.
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Wonka, it was a tremendously stupid thing to say...especially in an email to Scott Elkins who I think has no integrity whatsoever. I believe your situation 'A' fits the bill here. Don't get me wrong, I'm not defending the statement at all....seems people are making a mountain out of a molehill though. Kevin is a small fish in a big pond and it seems to me his comment was obviously false, but I guess that doesn't seem to be the perception of most here.
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Dan
I don't think Kevin is a Patrick Chan type. I have not seen that behavour exhibited. I do think what he said in the email was no joke though, as there is no evidence that it was. When the email was exposed then, and ONLY THEN, it became a joke. Of course had it stayed private it would never have made the front page Net54 news. But again, when having an idiot scumbag for a friend what can you expect?
As for Jim Rivera and his association with idiot Elkins....it's not the same. I don't see where Jim has ever said he would like to defraud people on Net54, and already has. That is the difference. Do I think Kevin is the biggest issue in the hobby? Of course I don't. Do I think he is associating with a lunatic and it caught up to him this time? Yes, I do. This whole situation will pass but I will never ever think of Kevin in the same light again. I was sort of neutral most times until now.....pluck pluck..... |
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Ok, I have my own opinions. I don't always go along with the masses.
Yes, I do talk to Scott Elkins. Just because I talk to him doesn't mean I share his personal views. I know most of you on this board don't like him. As far as I know, Scott has not comitted any fraud. Scott does fly off the handle and writes very strong statments on his board. I have told him I disagree with this very strongly. I hate it. Just because Scott doesn't like Leon,that wont stop me from talking or dealing with Leon. Also, a lot of you believed in T206 Museum. I didn't. So if I went along with what everybody else does, I would not have figured out about Pat Chan and the Museum. Anyone who has ever delt with me knows I am honest and very easy to deal with. If you check every post I have ever made, they are positive. There are no personal attacks or jabs. Collectors need to unite their knowledge and rid the hobby of Chans. As long as your personal life doesn't involve cheating or fraud, it doesn't concern me. I know Leon and Scott have a bad past, but that doesn't include me. I am going to deal with Leon and Scott and anybody else that is honest. I also think a lot of board members have had good deals with Scott, including Leon, they just disagree with his personal life and the outragous board rants. I really don't think Kevin is a Chan but his statement was disturbing. I have never talked to Kevin but I think he has good intentions for the hobby-I'm not sure that goes for 54ers. 54 can be brutal. I have tried to stay away from contaversy, but when I figured out Chan and the Museum and talk to several people about it, that went out the window.I enjoy 54 and will continue to hang out here. You have to cross these paths in the hobby and on the chat boards. JR |
Jim
I have never had any issue with you whatsoever and our dealings have always been perfect. I hope that continues. I won't make this into an Elkins bashing post but just so everyone knows the main reason *I think he hates me is because of me putting banner ads on this board. He also thinks there were several situations that I tried to get people not to bid on cards so I could win them cheaper. Of course this is in no way true and each and every thing he ever mentioned I proved wrong. I have never done anything wrong to him at all. The other thing he hates me for is letting BCD post about an issue on the board, that they had with each other. After 3-4 days I locked the thread as enough was enough. For these things he has decided to hate me and go off the deep end with an enormous amount of vitriol towards me. It almost seems his whole life is consumed with bashing me and, I think, that is the reason he was kicked off of another chat board that he actually started. I just thought I might explain what I think are the issues he has with me. I much prefer to talk about, and collect, cards with my friends. take care now....
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Leon, one thing is certain and that is, he has an obsession with you that is not healthy. His chatboard is like watching a train wreck really slowly.
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Jim well said.
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Leon-I will continue to deal with you -I don't care what anyone thinks about you. You have added very nice cards to my collection and every deal was perfect.
I know this board is hard to run and moderate. Very time consuming. Just because Scott has issues with you, that will not effect my opinion of you. Sometimes not doing what evrybody wants makes you not so popular but as long as you are honest, you are ok with me. Thanks for sticking up for me in your otherpost:D JR thanks John |
It seems like there are people with "unique personalities" in every hobby. In the end it's just up to each person to choose which ones they are comfortable dealing with.
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I take the stance on forgers and scammers in our hobby that MLB does with gamblers.
You don't scam anyone or forge baseball cards ever. You don't associate with know scammers or forgers. This is the cardinal rule and if you break it you lose all credibility and are not given a second chance. I would never, under any circumstance claim to have stolen from anyone, even my worst enemy. |
Dan B -I am not really sure what Scott has done to you and I only know some of the history with him and Leon but as far as I know he has not comitted fraud or cheated anyone in a deal. He does write harsh things on his board and he has said enough to be kicked off this board and does that mean he has no integrity?
He may threaten you but not your collection like the Museum-I would say that is no integrity. My dealings with Scott have all been good and he has added very nice cards to my collection. He is very knowledgable with vintage cards and did help me with my research on the bar Old Mills. I know many on here don't like him but he is not as bad as he is made out to be. At least not to me. I guess we disagree on this one but that is part of a chat board JR |
Jim
Yes we can agree to disagree on how bad Elkins is. NO good person raises animals to kill each other in the manner of which idiot Elkins did. Sorry, it's never been ok with me. Also, maybe you don't know but Scott bought a card from me on ebay then stopped payment on it after he got the card. I still have the stopped payment check. After about 6 mos, with enough people calling him a thief, he finally reimbursed me. He said he was teaching me a lesson for BCD supposedly ripping him off. I guess that is ok too? Saying on his stupid board that I have sold drugs to children is something I really should press charges on as it is complete fabrication. It's an open and shut case and I am contemplating doing it. I am not sure what I could get though as I hear double wides don't hold good resale value. And the fact he is a deadbeat means there probably isn't enough in a bank account to really go after. I guess those lies are ok too? Really now....if ya' hang around with lunatics long enough people can get the wrong idea. But to each their own. I won't talk about it anymore but when I hear someone saying he's not so bad it sort of makes me puke. He is actually much, much worse than he is made out to be. Take care now...
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Ease up on the double wide stuff, I have to live somewhere and I do own the land. I'm kidding of course, I do have a house with no wheels, but the car is on blocks. With you 100% Leon.:D
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I agree not paying for six months is not good. I have never meet Scott in person and I understand what you are saying. I enjoy 54 and I wont say anymore. My posts will be about vintage cards, unless I find another bad Museum:D
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Rawn
Very honestly it's not the double wide that upsets me at all. Heck, I think if it were out on some land of my own I could almost live in one. I am sure there are good people that live in them too. Elkins isn't one of them.
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Jim, for all the reasons Leon listed is why I believe Elkins has no integrity. His little "I hate Leon" forum is something to behold. Have you ever seen anything like that on the internet before? Before you made a few posts there in the last week or so I don't believe anyone has posted there in a year besides Elkins and his made up friend. I understand that the cards will always trump everything in this hobby and some people will still deal with him, but just take an hour or so to read some of his ramblings on that site. One sick dude.
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Jim
I am very sincere in saying that I would also just like to talk about cards with my friends. That is something this board is very good for. I hope you can make it to the National this year and make the Net54 Dinner. We have a really good time.....happy collecting.
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