Thoughts on Buying from Legendary
 

I am interested in knowing if people are still bidding on Legendary Auctions. Have their legal problems caused you to not bid? Did anyone have any issues with their last auction as far as receiving items they bought?

I have never had any problems receiving items from them and I have averaged about 1 pick-up per each of their last 3-4 auctions.

I don't think that delivery of goods was ever on the list of problems Mastro/Legendary has had.

shady all the way around
 

i bid once in there april 2009 auction on a 1941 Playball set all SGC graded i was out bid which is fine and dandy but the exact same set is in their auction again.........FACT

An addict has to get his crack somewhere.

Interesting quote Jeff. Some drugs can't be obtained above board.

Just to say, that in the end when dealing with a hobby or obsession most times the stuff wins out.

bid all the time
 

I bid in every auction and have never had an issue. A few times the shipping was a bit out of whack but 1 phone call and it was always taken care of. I have my sights set on several lots in their current auction.

I will be bidding too, and never had a problem. Delivering lots to winning bidders has not been an issue.

"Please note: If you already have a Mastro Auctions bidder account, you are automatically registered for all Legendary Auctions. Your Mastro Auctions Username and Password will allow you to log in and participate in this auction."

http://cdn.bleacherreport.com/images...71_feature.jpg

After they defrauded me (and you) for years, they finally banned me. If you're a consignor of a high end Cobb card, however, don't worry; I'm pretty sure there is a secretary or some other unknowing 'bidder' who will make up for my missing bids. They won't win the auctions, of course, but the bids will be raised to the level that Doug feels is appropriate.

Does "(and you)" mean me?

Maybe its because I'm surrounded by cardboard all day, every day, but if you think something is out of whack with auction house xyz and continue to bid with them....then you are helping to perpetuate such actions. Let me put it bluntly, if an "obsession" with cardboard overrides your sense of morals or integrity, then you seriously have priority issues.

If they will screw their consignors, and they will screw their business partners, then at some point they will screw their bidders. (a)



a. they and their are rhetorical and not specific to anyone at all (b)


b. unless anyone specific actually screws their consignors and screws their business partners (c)


c. hypothetically speaking

Simply put...no...I will not bid with them...I feel they are still unethical at the least and criminal at the most. I can usually find the items I look for (lower grade and usually available) other places.

Joshua

Yes, it's the victims' fault. It's the victims' lack of morals and integrity that allows them to get defrauded. Good reasoning here; you'd be a defense lawyer's dream on a rape trial.

Jeff,

Cease with the drama and the "rape trial" and all that other drivel. You know exactly what the point it.

it is kinda pathetic -- we (using the collective loosely) bitch and moan and cast aspersion and shake our heads in disgust -- and then eagerly open up the catalog to see what's in the new auction.

Pete,

Exactly, but remember you're a "victim" if you willingly participate in the action, fully aware and knowing of what is occuring.

Addiction/obsession makes for thick coats of teflon.

This comment is out of line.

Never bid - won't bid.

This thread got me thinking...I believe I have only ever purchased cards from people I respect. This is not so much a moral position as a way I prefer to do business.

I am not tempted by the material...I have 100% faith that I'll be able to get any card I could ever want from a good guy at some point down the road.

Brief story: went to a card show recently. The place was awash in junk - a sea of shiny inserts and such. At one table there was a guy with good pre-war material. I walked up to him with a pocket full of cash...a rarity at this show that had way more lookers than buyers. After one minute of chatting with him, I knew he was a total tool. I exited the show with not one item in hand.

Pretty much the same idea with how I choose auction houses.

Cheers,
Blair

Good for you, that's a great way to be! (even if you are a Red Sox fan) ;)

Stop with your holier than thou preaching. Only in this hobby are fraudsters coddled and protected so much. It becomes so ingrained in everyone's minds that it's ok for a little fraud to occur, it's just the way we things are done here and have always been. Someone lies at a show about a card's significance in order to make a few more bucks? Ahh, who cares, shake it off. Auctions are dripping with fraud? Ahh, who cares as long as it's not directed solely at me. I know what can make it better -- contracts signed by the auction house principals in which they promise not to rip us off! Yeah, that's the ticket. How about this concept? Don't break the law, period. It's not the victims' faults if they are robbed, it's the responsibility of the perpetrators of the fraud. Someone asked about Legendary and I told them. If you have something to add about Legendary, have the balls to say it; otherwise shut your hole.

For the people who so proudly refrain from bidding with Legendary, may I ask which auctions you do bid with? How do you know those auction houses don’t practice the same shady things that Mastro did but just have yet to be caught? Also, do you guys buy on ebay from unknown sellers? How do you know that they aren’t terrible people? Just curious…

The only major auction house I have purchased from in the last 4 years is REA.

Do I know they are clean? Nope. But that uncertainty doesn't compel me to buy from those I know are dirty.

Dang, wish I had your patience!

My Take
 

I would never do business with them. I guess I am not as into collecting as some of you, but it's just not worth it to me. I won't do business with someone that I don't think is honest...no matter how bad I want an item. I wish nobody would bid in their auction. Then nobody would consign to them. The material would still be sold...but it would be consigned through a more honest auction house. It all seems like common sense to me, but I'm just one guy from Texas.;)

I'm curious what some of you guys would do if Legendary were to auction off for example an 1893 Just So Cy Young and you needed that card for your Rookie Collection, or you are trying to complete the Just So set (This is obviously hypothetical) and you know that a certain Ivy League collector is your competition and you also know this Ivy League collector has vowed to be buried with his collection. Do you bid in the auction or does your moral compass tell you that your lifelong collecting dream of having the Cy Young rookie card die right then and there?

My personal choice is not to do business with certain auction houses. There isn't a hypothetical situation that would make me change my stance. I don't even look at the lots in those houses. I am not sure why its such a big deal. I make my money. And I choose where to spend it.

Jeff, I actually agree with you with most of this statement. Here is my problem. In past threads over the years you admitted to bidding with Mastro in order to obtain a very rare Hal Chase, Ty Cobb or any number of other rare cards. Then you would malign the same auction, even if you were actively participating. Not to cast dispersions on you Jeff, but weren't you funding these "fraudsters" with thousands of dollars who are "coddled and protected so much"? So here's a novel idea, don't fund perpetrators so they can continue to break the law even if they have an incredible piece of cardboard that you can't live without.

Brian, I have a tremendous amount of respect for you and your position. And Dan, your point is well-taken but I just think you need to appreciate that only in rare circumstances can someone who bids on these auctions be responsible for being defrauded. As Jeff P notes, who knows what goes on during these auctions? One day an auction house is supposedly clean, the next day it's not. Maybe none of them are clean. I suppose if you want to be 100% sure you won't be defrauded you can simply stop buying cards; but this is just not a realistic situation. As I said, all we can hope for is that the auction houses obey the law of the land, nothing more, nothing less.

James, who knows who is clean? Remember when Mastro was supposedly clean? Somehow I suspect if I had a shot to look at the bidding records of every major auction house I'd find something going on. So what do you do? Just stop bidding? You have two choices: you can either accept being defrauded or you can do what you can to stop the fraudsters from breaking the law. If I didn't bid in anyone's auctions I'd just give up the hobby. That's the choice you are suggesting which I'm not prepared to do yet.

In the last couple years I have bid with REA, B&L and Heroes of Sport. Before I registered to bid with any of those, I had some form of personal exchange with each of Rob, Leon and young Mr. Jaimet that led me to have respect for them. Also, each had many who vouched for their above-board dealings. And I reviewed auction results from REA and B&L - I saw nothing to concern me in the way of outlandish results or outlier prices. Could any of them possibly be doing something offside? I suppose so. But I don't think so.

With Ebay, I have had many pleasant dealings with people. I end up being a repeat customer of many of these guys. I consider David B and bagger77 (Dave) to be great and stand-up guys. Basically, you are safe to buy from any guy named Dave :D.

Cheers,
Blair

I just know I'm looking forward to this case proceeding and I hope the guilty parties are punished enough to make sure that others think very hard about committing the same things. I really wonder how much the skyrocketing values of cards in this hobby over the last decade or so are due solely to fraudulent activity combined with the "need" to have it mentality of many collectors.

I should clarify my response. My response of REA only was in the context of those that send catalogs.

If we broaden the question to any auction, in addition to REA, I have purchased from B&L (one lot), 19thcentury (one lot) and ebay (several) in the last 4 years.

I agree with Jeff that you shouldn't in any way support people who commit fraud, but in the world of baseball memorabilia, if you are going to follow that rule to the letter of the law, you really need to find another hobby. Because for as long as I have been in this industry, fraud has been a way of life for a great many. It's unfortunate, but the fact that collectors are addicted and have a good deal of money plays into the hands of all the shady sellers. And while I have met a number of truly honest and fair people, they very well may be in the minority. And for all the stories of fraud we hear about on this board, there are oh so many more that don't go public. It's really pretty sad.

Very recently in a thread in this forum we saw that Leland's auctioned a photo of Miller Huggins that was easily shown to be Al Bridwell, and they knew it well before the auction closed. The got over 3 grand from someone for it.

I wonder how many people saw that, yet will still bid on items offered by Leland's.

I believe that there is a third choice....don't bid with an auction house that you know is fraudulent. That doesn't mean don't bid with anyone unless you know without a doubt that they are 100% clean.

what if we are only kinda sure that they are fraudulent, like 50/50?

But how do you know that an auction house is a fraud when so many people on this board put up a BS defense for them, knowing full well they are lying in order to protect a 'friend?'

I have consigned and bought items from Mastro in the past, everything went well. I have also bought from Lelands, 19th Century, ebay and antique stores.
Probably others that I don't remember. Since my interest is only 19th Century Detroit for the last few years, most auctions don't have anything I want or need. I have seen fraud from ebay, antique stores, and card shows when they were popular, not so much from the auction houses. I am willing to wait and see what happens with MASTRO anyway.

Joe

"In May 2006, Mastro spoke with a collector regarding a L-1 Leather Ty Cobb item (a piece of leather with Cobb's likeness on it) that was then selling for $17,000. During that conversation, Mastro learned that the collector would pay a maximum of $41,000. Minutes later, a bid of $41,000 was placed on that item which would have triggered the collector's maximum bid."
- Michael O'Keeffe article

I've stopped calling auction houses to remind them about my max bids. They can look it up in their database if they want to bump me.

Jeff....

I'm not sure I understand your point.

Are you saying it is not rational to avoid someone who has been caught.... because you don't know what others have done (who have yet to be caught)?

Is that Nuf Ced McGreevey? If so, your post is absolutely fantastic and apparently went unappreciated.

Wow, good catch - and good point.

Not really. My point is that I personally think the vast majority of auction houses have committed fraudulent/shady activities at some point. I mean seriously Joe, is there a single one that you have not heard a dirty story about (not counting B&L, but they are relatively new, give them a little time ;))? Therefore, if I refuse to do business with Legendary, I would then have to refuse to do business with all of them which basically means giving up the hobby.

thanks
 

Thanks Jeff..:)

"Nuf Ced" Very nice Steve :)

I see your point about most being dirty....
but I don't share your viewpoint of an 'all' or 'none' when it comes to refusing to do business with an auction house.

They may all be dirty.... I really don't know....
but I reserve the right to pick and choose the grade of dirty that I don't like most :D

Right now - there are two auction houses that I avoid. They've turned my stomach at some point.... so, I really don't care to send them a check. Its not etched in stone, its just how I feel right now.

There may be auction houses that do or have done worse things. But these two managed to find my stomach-turning grade of dirty.

All I can say is I have known Bill Mastro since I was a kid and learned everything about the industry from him (The good and the bad...just to same some BS replies on this post). Even through all the bad publicity I still chose Mastro Auctions for my consignments for the same reason Jeff mentioned in his posts. The fact is its human nature to dwell on a certain negative instance, but one still needs to measure the good from the past. The professionalism, knowledge and service was impeccable and when my consignment of the highest graded Walter Mails game goes for under $10K....I have a hard time believing shill bidding was common practice. Bottom line is...you go with the one who brings the consignor the best terms, has the largest membership to get your item in front of them and one who has the knowledge and service to boot

Just to be clear, Mike...

You've known Mastro for years.
You're aware of all that's been said about them.
You are AGREEING with Jeff.

And you rolled that all together and decided to stick with...Legendary?

Mike S, I have known Bill Mastro for years and he did a lot of good things for the Hobby. I have read all the negative input from past posts and press reports. I am willing to wait until all information is ruled on. Also he and Rob Lifson now at Robert Edwards Auctions, at one time worked very closely together in the 70's and 80's didn't they? This is the Auction House that everyone likes right now. If I am wrong about that , let me know. If the statement about Rob Lifson is wrong, then I will retract it.

Joe

MikeS,

Good luck getting paid. (a)

Brian



a. I say this to anyone consigning an item to any house

Brian, did you have a problem getting paid from a Mastro Auction?

Joe

Are we supposed to get something from that? I'd like to hear if somone has an issue with REA or Rob Lifson. From all I've gathered, he and his operation are as squeaky clean as they come in this business. Rob Lifson has been an FBI consultant and a Justice Department expert witness on pretty much all issues of concern in this hobby/business. His statements of ethics and practice are by far the strongest I've seen in this area.

If someone has something different to say, I'd like to hear it. I'm not interested in loose insinuations.

Cheers,
Blair

Jim-

Just saw your post and yes...I am aware of all the bad rap on Masto, I agree with Jeff and I still chose Legendary (Mastro at the time). The fact is they did a great job with my item back at the live event following the National back in 2008 with regards to exposure/marketing and didn't have a problem getting paid. The reason why I chose them is they showed the most interest in representing my item and they truely wanted my business. I know that software has changed over the years and I was never a fan of the two option bid..."my max bid" and "straight line bid" for this confusion would hurt the buyer and benefit the house. I know some sites still use this method and I know bidders who thought they were leaving the max bid, but straight lined it instead and entered into a binding contract. Fact is, as a bidder, when you plug in your max....you need to expect that's what you going to pay and if it goes lower then that's your bonus. Look at the auction format you are participating in and bid accordingly. In conclusion, last time I checked this wasn't the most ethical hobby out there. After reading many posts, I'm sure no one in this forum has ever misrepresented their item in a business transaction (oh I didn't see that spider crease), or took advatage buying something off somone who didn't know what they had. Is that ethical.....no...but it happens.

Nope I don't consign to them so I have no fears for myself. I do have a problem with anyone having a problem getting paid what they are due, when they are due it, by whoever they submit to.

The only way to obtain cards is through auction houses? Private transactions, BST, trades, the National and many other means don't exist any more? You should either submit to shill bidding or give up the hobby? By the way, I can think of an auction house other than B&L that has not been embroiled in a scandal.

ready when you are...

By the way, I'm not telling anyone what they should or shouldn't do. I'm just saying that for me personally, I would feel like a hypocrite if I told myself that I wouldn't allow myself to bid with Legendary b/c of their past fraud but go ahead and bid with the other guys who I also believe have committed past fraud. :confused:

Obviously, auction houses are not the only way to obtain cards, but they do seem to have about 90% of what I want to collect.

Um, watch your tenses there, boy. I'd hate for you to think that all is well going forward.

sorry, ongoing fraud.

They are young yet..... give them some time. ;)

"Fact is, as a bidder, when you plug in your max....you need to expect that's what you going to pay and if it goes lower then that's your bonus."

Surely part of this equation should be the expectation on the part of the bidder of a legitimate "arms length" transaction.

Apparently not. This sort of mentality is what allows shill bidding to go on unfettered: "oh well, I paid what I thought the card was worth so it's all good." But it's not all good if the card could have been had for less than your max bid and for less than what you thought the card might be worth. This is why it is an auction and not a tag sale. Also, when a card is shilled to a level beyond what the card would have sold for minus the fraud, the next time that card comes up for auction either in that grade or a different one, a false precedent has been set. Even if no direct fraud occurs in the latter auction, the impact of the prior fraud is real.

And sadly, why am I saying this....again? How many more years do we need to hear the basic concepts of Fraud 101? This is pretty basic stuff, right?

Jeff you and I are in agreement and that was the point of my post.

what's the solution Jeff?

The only solution on a local level is if you think you are getting hosed, don't get in the pool.

The solution is for law enforcement to go after these auction houses, and if they are convicted of fraud, to penalize them heavily.

As far as whether or not to bid, I don't have an answer. Certainly Jeff is correct that if you leave a ceiling bid and the lot gets to the limit due to shilling, it's not acceptable at all. You should only have to pay one increment above the last real bid. Period. And if one were to boycott all auction houses where even the possibility of fraud exists, then it's time to find a new hobby.

To follow up on Jeff's point, I wish I had a dollar for every time a member of this board posted something along the line of "I don't have to worry about shill bidding because I just plug in the max I'm willing to pay and forget about it."

Well I always thought if you bid with your head and your budget in mind, you wouldn't overpay. Of course many will overbid because they cherish and want the item for their collection so they set a high personal expectation. I think most people still live in that "last 5 sec" rule of Ebay where u plug in a high spend and most of the time its concludes lower than your bid....in instances where you win. Most sites offer the 30min rule and this is where you have control of your own destiny. Plugging in a max bid with two weeks to go is the bidders fault if their intention is to get the item lower than what they bid. I understand most peoples gripe and true it's unethical, but I haven't seen an indictments so far. What blows my mind about "shill bids" is that in the end the buyer still got an authentic lot. I went to the CCorner after reading many of member posts, but this site still remains in business and completely makes the industry look bad with all those great autographs and Morales certs. People are still bidding on these and this is true fraud, but no one seems to care except poke fun. Think its time to drop the scapegoats and move on. If anything, bidders and collectors should come away from this to be weary, do your research and find the best house or site that serves your needs. If you don't like another site/house...then don't use them, but don't tell others what not to do unless you have a personal instance to share and focus on the good traits of the company you like.

People may make light of CC over on the memorabilia side but everybody wants them shut down. That they have been able to operate the way they do for so long and still be in business says a lot to me about law enforcement. I'm sure the feds know about what goes on over there, and yet what have they done about it? Nobody really understands how it has gone on for so long. Clearly, CC understands how the system works.

And Mike to touch on your other point, people who bid on baseball memorabilia are not always rational. They bid emotionally and often ending up going way past their intended maximum. And while it's not good to blame the victim, unfortunately auction houses know this and take advantage of them. This has been going on as long as I've been in this business, and probably longer.

I don't for a second condone shill bidding, but to me, as an issue, it pales next to card doctoring/misrepresentation of memorabilia.

Yes Peter, you would think we all collect used cars wouldn't you?

I agree Peter. Overpaying for something isn't good, but at least you get the item. Buying an altered or counterfeit piece is much worse, because you get nothing. But it's all bad.

Of course it isn't necessarily an either/or, as I am sure there are countless instances of paying a shilled price for an altered card or a misrepresented item.

I have to laugh at some of the reasoning on this board, seriously.

Ok, one last time, very slowly:

if you are defrauded by x number of dollars due to a shill bid and you receive an authentic card at an unauthentic price, you are out x dollars.

if you purchase an altered card with the assumption it is not altered, you have been defrauded by the amount that the card is worth as advertised as unaltered minus the amount that the card is worth advertised as altered. If that difference is x dollars, then each fraud described above has the same financial impact on the buyers.

Mike, as for the mentality that "if you bid with your head and your budget in mind, you wouldn't overpay" this does not excuse shill bidding which raises the final price to a level that that the bidder still believes is appropriate if he is 'bidding with his head.' All that means is that his 'head' is unaware of the true value of the card.

And Jeff P, the only solution is law enforcement or civil lawsuits brought against the auction houses. It is clear to me based on the high incidence of lowlifes that head up most of the auction houses in our hobby that they cannot be trusted to police themselves. I wrote about this in 2006(!) that it was clear to me why fraudsters (convicted or soon to be) gravitate towards this hobby/business. It's just too easy for them to steal in an unfettered, unmonitored fashion. And reading some comments on this thread, the victims themselves don't even want to be considered victims most of the time. It's almost as if the government/law enforcement need to protect some of the victims here from themselves.

the bus that just went over me :)
 

Hey, you guys quit throwing Scott and I (B & L) under the bus, would ya'?;) We are still young in the auction business but have done no wrong and our intent is to do no wrong. If you want to see real market prices check our auctions. I can't really give opinions of other auction houses but only very few come to mind where I don't think anything wrong has happened. I will leave it at that :). best regards