1991 Topps variations
 

i am putting together a ‘91 topps set and trying to include all the main variations, including the light/dark logos and print code variations

i dont seem to have a single “dark logo, print code A/B” variation.

does anyone know where these come from? certain factory sets, wax/cello/rack, etc?

thanks in advance

There's a few completists on the site for this monster. If you truly want to do master on 91' including back variations, it's going to be a project and a half...good luck! Personally I have only bothered with Desert Shield and the double fronts for 91, so I don't have a ton of info.

Junk Wax Gems has a list of known A/B he keeps up - https://junkwaxgems.wordpress.com/ta...ps-master-set/

thanks justin. that was super helpful. i had no idea those AB variations were rare…just thought they came from a type of packaging that i never opened. those might have to just come off my target list of there are only 10-15 of each.

Agree with Justin. Assuming you do not limit yourself to "hobby recognized variations", I do not think I have ever seen a full "master" list of all the possible front and back variants of this set. But if one exists I would expect Dylan to have it

RE: the A*B* cards there should be 132 subjects since they affect the A* sheet only.

To date, no concrete info exists on what packaging type(s) they come from.

Topps printed cards for two different destinations: hobby and retail and there are distinct variations between those runs and they each had their own set of correction runs as well.

For example: boxes marked 'PICTURE CARDS' had certain errors initially that boxes produced at the same time marked 'BUBBLE GUM CARDS' did not. And visa-versa. Over time and updates to the plates, these eventually had some of the same versions in each box. To further complicate things, there are variations that only exist in one type or the other.

This set is probably the most complex in Topps' (flagship) history, there is no real defined master set list to work off of, which, to me, makes it more fun and allows some flexibility. I went further into this in a Beckett article a few years ago.

Happy to answer any questions I can about this set. I've spent way too much of my life with these cards.

thanks guys for all the great information. i truly had no idea how far down the rabbit hole i would be going with this set! i am going to read all the suggested articles and do a bit more research…but maybe now i will try to tackle it…or parts of it.

mike

The fun is that there's still room to discover something "new" in 91 Topps.

And with differences of opinion about what's a variation or not, there probably won't be a truly complete list.

For example, I separate out a third version of the backs that under UV is a very dark red. It's reactive, but in an odd way.

I also have set aside cards with what I think are stock differences also UV related. And a couple potential gloss differences.

And my list for varieties that can be seen has stuff that isn't on other lists.

It's a fun set if you're both cheap and insane.

I have another question for you 1991 Topps collectors. I think this has been previously discussed. It is my understanding that prior to the issue of the set in packs Topps went into the market and got at least 3 full sets of each prior issue. Someone could win a complete run as the grand prize in the instant win game insert contest ( you can collect a set of the instant win cards as well. I have a set minus 3 which I think may have been single issue big winner cards....not sure). Anyone know if the grand prize was collected

I think you could also win a complete set of each the individual sets as well, right ?. Anyone know if all sets were claimed/won ?

Finally you could get individual cards inserted into the 91 packs. ( I do not think 1951 was included). The oversized cards ( 52-56) were not included as inserts and had wo be claimed with winner cards. I think some pos 56 cards with a recognized higher value at the time also had to be claimed by winner card. Not sure. Anyone know if all cards were claimed ? Wonder if some decent value cards still remain out there in unopened packs

The inserts cards I have seen, many possibly bought on the secondary market for the promotion, were not "mint" condition cards

I opened a ton of 91 Topps wax pack back in the day. I pulled one 88 common out of a pack. Nobody else I actually knew pulled anything out of a pack back then.

I ripped a fair amount back in '91 and never found anything. There were stories like "my friend two states over found the Yount rookie!", or "my mother's best friend's uncle's barber's nephew found the 1970 Clemente" - hard to verify at best. With my luck, if I had found anything it would have been a checklist from 1990.

For a brief time in 91-92, Topps published it's own magazine and I distinctly recall a photo of the lucky guy who was the grand prize winner posing about albums full of cards. I think it said he'd be selling the collection.

But this was also back when every gas station had a case of cards on the shelf and Sam's Club was selling pallets.

LOL, pretty sure you can still buy pallets of 91 Topps.:)

100%! And while I do think we are nearing the end of discovery of new things, I absolutely believe there are a few more surprises to be uncovered.

I believe it was and it was reported in Topps magazine.

The Instant Win Sweepstakes cards with X on them were winners for various prizes. One of them turned up recently on Facebook but the seller wasn't interested in moving it. It was the first time I'd actually seen one.

I believe the vintage card redemptions are a different thing and I have yet to see a copy of any redemption. Im assuming any pulled were mailed in, the question is whether any remain in packs.

Thanks Dylan. I have all the Topps magazines. Guess I need to go back and read them :o

I bought a case of the 91 cello boxes. I opened half of them, never saw a single X on any of them, never pulled any vintage cards. I still have 6-7 cello boxes left. Gonna do something with them, just don't know what yet.

Butch T.

The instant game card indicates "1991 Topps Retail Packs ". Chance for a winner 1/1000. This would come to around 24,530,000 packs . Divided by 36/box, about 682,000 retail boxes !!!!

I pulled a 1962 Topps Dallas Green about 10 years ago looking for errors/variations.

I pulled a VERY OC 1970 Topps Cito Gaston...after opening a ton I had bought at Costco, I was pretty excited to actually get something.

I pulled A*B* cards from 2 separate cello boxes (bought from same person). Sold most of the cards for $5 each. I have 3 A*B* McGwires, and all are diamond cut with a print line. If I remember correctly, there is a manager card (or 2) that doesn't have the A*B* copyright (but should have had it).

Very helpful, thank you.

I believe that Tom Trebelhorn is one of the managers and the only way that you can find his A* variation is with the A*B* run. Im curious about the other MGR card.

I've been putting my Topps complete sets into binders. I have 76-93, 2000, 2008, 2021 and 2022 flagship and 2019 and 2022 Heritage. When I started putting my 1991 set into a binder, I, too, got sucked into this rabbit hole. I actually put the set together from packs back in 91, and I have my marked checklists to prove it. I actually made my own checklist of variations, based on what was being reported in Beckett at the time, I believe. I don't think the Mark Whiten variation was known then. I remember thinking there was something about those dark logos on the back of some cards, but all of my doubles got dispensed with somewhere along the way. I wonder now if I had any A*B* variants, but it seems unlikely.

I'm going to go with the variations that are on Trading Card Database for now. I'll just leave blank spaces in my binder sheets for all of those A*B* (and probably the Whiten and Drabek) variations. I've bought unopened wax, cello and rack pack boxes, plus a few complete sets (factory and hand-collated) in an attempt to get all of the more common variations before I give it a rest for a while.

I did actually pull at least one vintage card from a pack. It was a 1970 Terry Harmon, I believe. I still have it. It will go in the binder at the end of the (massive) complete set.

https://www.tcdb.com/Images/Large/Ba...15319RepFr.jpg

Welcome aboard redfan

Double post

Dylan likely has several more :)

If anyone needs a few thousand more to sort through please make me an offer....

Whiten was a quick get for me but Drabek took a bit of time. And I ended up getting both for reasonable prices, which is always nice. I just wish the cello case I bought back in 91 has these in them. But alas, nope.

I found these and a couple Dennis Boyd with the pink tip. The backs show the regular and error version. The Segui is the error corrected inner border error. The Drabek is a color variation the inner border is grey and has a purple background on the color variation.

Too bad this thread wasn't posted a few months ago. I recently threw away a 800 count box full of most of 91 errors except the AB sheet code errors.

Al,

There is another Whiten variant where his hand is over the thin black border. Not to be confused with the hand extending into the white area error. But his flesh is over the thin black line. Not easy to spot and therefore not too desirable to most, Im sure.



Sadly, I need a Whiten, Hoiles and Drabek for a working "master set."

Fluorescing Backs
 

so I have been chipping away at variations and a desert shield set. even modestly invested in a handheld UV/blacklight to try and help identify fakes in DS. That's just been a whole other story...but I digress

I did find something weird in the base topps set backs.


I have maybe 15 Chipper rookies. There isnt a "bold logo" variation for this and they all have the same sheet IDs. 14 of the cards fluoresce on the back around the edges and on the light logo...but one literally doesnt light up at all. That seems odd to me...and I'm not seeing it with any of the other cards with similar characteristics. I don't think I have this one card that perhaps came out of a busted factory set of vending...but would that explain why only one is different? I am sure the other 14 came from various stages of print runs throughout late '90 and '91.

My memory sucks so hopefully someone else can comment. I believe the glow back and non glow backs are from different packaging. I know I was putting both sets together from the silly amounts of 91 Topps I had. Then someone told me it was just the packaging they came in so I stopped sorting.

the different packaging makes sense...just weird that I have the single standout

and on the related topic of Desert Shield...I spent some time looking on Blowout at some of the fakes they had uncovered along with high -res closeups of the stamps.

I thought I was pretty comfortable after reading all the help you and ZachWheat had provided over the years...but now I think I give up. If those slabbed DS cards are really fakes, it means the scammers have learned all they needed and have perfected their craft...I cannot discern much of a difference anymore.

I really had hoped that cards in the most recent slabs would come with some more intelligence from the TPGs...(yes, I realize how ridiculous that sounded before I even finished typing it)

did the fakery start immediately in 1991? the reason I ask is that the bulk of cards I have are from early accumulated lots...maybe halfway into 1992. I had always "hoped" that they were legit

Because it is just a foil stamp on the DS cards the fakes showed up pretty quickly. The grading companies are horrible at grading them. I have noticed way more of the fake Chipper cards getting graded. For fun I just checked eBay and to me the majority of the high graded ones are fake. Unfortunately they started grading one of the obvious(to me) fakes and now there are a lot of that version in slabs.

Just found another one. Found this Robin Ventura in a binder with what looks like a brown inner left border. I believe this to be the one Dylan has listed as red with grey overprint.

DS Chipper
 

hey Ben. here is the raw chipper i have had for 30 years….spurred the questions about when the “fakes” started. the picture admittedy isn’t great

Here is your Chipper next to a known real one with the shield on similar condition. With the fuzzy pic and the weird tilt of the shield on the card I don't like it, a clearer pic would help. I do like it more since I put the other one beside it than when I first looked at it. I would bet PSA would like it though. What does everyone else think?

Yes, I believe that Topps originally printed with gray, then added a red layer over it before changing to solid red. Very apparent when all are together in person.


I recall hearing/learning about them being faked in 1991 or 1992. I purchased a Robin Ventura miscut around then and I remember the dealers talking about counterfeits of them going around.

There is no Chipper with Bold 40th logo because that variation only affects A* and B* sheet players. Chipper can be found without ANY of the 40th logo on back.

There should not be any variations in the Desert Shield set since the cards were from a very distinct run. Whenever I have encountered an error or correted counterpart to a known DS variant, it is always a fake (Mike Walker, Efrain Valdez, Pat Borders etc). I believe that all DS cards should have glow backs but Zack Wheat found one or two oddballs in his stash. All A* and B* DS cards should he Bold 40th backs.

And on the topic of fake DS cards, if anyone stumbles on a fake Robin Ventura, please let me know, I'd love to own a copy if it uses the wrong border version or is non-bold 40th on back.

Ben,

I know my Chipper pics arent very good...but my scanner is even worse. In hand, that one lesser known "tell" that I think I know about from corresponding with you and ZachWheat looks ok...and on the known fakes it really stands out

the other thing about timing...Chipper was certainly a known guy in '91...but he ceretianly wasn't Chipper Chipper yet...would someone really have spent time faking a prospect and selling it for $5...I mean with inflation, thats like $60 today, but stil:)l

People forge $1-$5 autographs all the time, eBay has a ton of them listed right now. It is a popular misconception that only expensive stuff is faked. Absolutely everything is faked. It is way easier to sell the fake cheap stuff because so many think nobody would fake that to make a couple dollars.

I just got lucky because usually my pics are way worse than yours on the DS cards.:)

Yep. And people werent forging Chipper so much as the 1991 cards in general. The DS cards were scorching hot.

And...for the record, Chipper was literally the #1 overall draft pick in 1990. He was cheap in 1991-1992 (I bought every card that Burbank Sportscards had in stock back then and most were $0.30-40/ea) but a major prospect.

Just revised the checklist/article for 1991 Topps with a lot of supplemental information.

https://junkwaxgems.wordpress.com/20...ing-checklist/

The grand prize was claimed and the lucky winner bought a bunch of stuff at the 1992 National Convention. That information was discussed in some detail in, I think, Pete Williams' Card Sharks book

I think amongst other things he purchased a 1982 Topps Traded Case and a 1952 Topps Mantle.

Regards
Rich

rich,

I do know about the grand prize winner, he was also featured in Topps Magazine at the time. Also, according to an ad run around late 1991, Mr. Mint bought his collection!

To clarify, I don't think any expired/unredeemed redemptions have turned up for sale - I dont know anyone who owns one. There are two types of redemptions that Topps inserted:

(1) For oversized/high value vintage cards

(2) For Sweepstakes Game prizes (cards with X on front)

I have collected error and oddball stuff before 91 and I have also never once seen any of the redemption cards for any high end or oversize cards.

Also want to add I like many others greatly appreciate all the effort Dylan has put into his website.:)

Ben, I think the glow backs were from the UV brightener added to the ink and not distinguishable from packaging (not certain), although that would make sense. DS cards should be in wax packs only, but we know DS cards come in both varieties. I have a DS card where the ink wasn't mixed completely so some of the red ink on the card is a glow back and the remainder is not. Glowback=does not fluoresce under UV light

This card I have is from 1990, right ?

1990 Major Legue Debut (corners of the sheet)

Thanks Ben!

1991 Randy Bush
 

Didn’t see the 124 Bush no print code listed on the newest version of the’91 checklist. Is that still a real variant?

It sure is. I own a single copy and have never found another. A few sold on ebay/comc a couple years back for very low prices.

A basic (dumb?) question from someone who already has 50-60 variations in his PC and is wondering how deep into this swamp to go....

Are ALL 792 cards available in light and dark logo versions?

Anyone want to speculate what the heck was happening at Topps in late 1990 and early 1991 that caused this insanity?

No, only cards from the A* and B* sheets can be found with bold 40th logos (minus manager cards) however, players with variations like McGwire, Tettleton, Lilliquist, Ventura, etc can be found in both bold 40th and non bold 40th versions for each variation type.

Whenever I see a bold/barely visible 91 Topps variation in the COMC Data Base, I do break them out. I was surprised to add a couple in the past couple of weeks.

This overproduced era has some master set challenges with 91 leading the parade. 1991 Donruss and the stripes/pattern variations are up there as well.

Couple of other notes

IIRC -- 1991 Topps was produced at more than one factory because of the sheer volume of cards made. That also caused some of the variations

I think every year from 1987-92 Donruss has variations because the factory sets were made differently than the unopened pack cards.

Also, I know I've run into people who disagree but I'm still wish (and told Topps that back in the day) there had been some stamp to indicate a pack pulled card. The point was how to create extra value. As I pointed out, a friend of mine pulled a 1989 common and what could he do with that card. If the card had a stamp it would have bad more value.

Because they left the presses running. It is surprising that there aren't more variations due to printing plates that might haveneeded to be replaced during the printing process.

An estimate of 4 million per card:
https://tanmanbaseballfan.com/2015/1...acks-more.html

First time I saw the cards it was a full pallet in a grocery store. Think of all the card shops and shows that constantly sold the cards.

I just came across your column on the 1991 Topps E&Vs in the May 1991 Beckett. In it you mention that the Beckett in-house team for E&Vs confirmed several of the variations that Topps notified the hobby media of. One of those was Efrain Valdez' 6-11-66 birthdate variation. Now, I'm sure this info is very fresh and clear and easy to recall some 30+ years later but is there any chance that you can confirm anything pertaining to this card?

I remember some of what existed 30 years ago or even 20 years ago but if I wrote we had the card, we had the card. Beyond that I have no idea where the card is now. Who knew in 1991 we would still be discussing Valdez more than 30 years later :)

Sounds like the very difficult 2002 Topps Albert Pujols (IIRC the year correctly) where the original back was Placido Polanco but the last 10 percent of the print run Topps told us had Pujols. Yep, on that one I remember we had one of those at Beckett but again no idea where said card would be nowadays

The Valdez just drives me nuts and Im not sure why:) There used to be an image on TCDB but apparently they have had issues with photoshopped cards being uploaded before. Just enough lead to keep me concerned 30 years later!

For what its worth, I swear that I saw an ebay completed sale for the corrected Pujols* in 2007 or so. I know there is an old BMB thread somewhere in the internet ether where I posted about it around then too.

*Not the HTA or Liimited or Opening Day, the real deal

Don't get me started on how Beckett messed up the BMB because it was a major draw for collectors for years.

Rich

I haven't went through mine in awhile so I pulled my box of them out and just started going through them. I'm only a few cards in (I started at 792 and I'm going backwards). So far I have two bold logos a Bob Milacki (1 out of the 7 was bold) and a Joel Skinner (1 out of 6). Maybe it's my imagination but the bold logos feel different (thicker maybe) to me.

I am in the doubtful camp on both Valdez and Pujols but woold gladly be wrong

I don't know if Im ready to give up on Valdez but I have several times over the years only to get pulled back in.

Even if my memory isn't to be trusted or I imagined a sale for the Pujols back then, how do we explain the corrected Loretta in the 2002 set? It seems unlikely to me that Topps issued a very late photo correction on his card but didn't do the same for Pujols.

To date, I know of just five copies circulating. Only one of those turned up since posting the blog on it two years ago.

(In my Paul Harvey voice).... "For what it's worth...."

Even if the 2002 Mark Loretta card was corrected (which I think it was) ..... There is no doubt in my mind that the Pujols was ONLY corrected for the HTA, Opening Day, Chrome, and Refractors. The HTA set has a version for Polanco back and a Pujols back. I know because I have both.

Ironically, I have been collecting Cardinals team sets since that very year of 2002. A couple of years into my collecting I became aware of the possibility of a Pujols corrected back for the regular card. I have scoured nearly the entire earth and I have yet to even see a scan or a picture, much less the real card. I do not believe one exists. Surely to goodness gracious at least one would have surfaced by now.

As for the comment of scouring nearly the entire Earth, I was exaggerating a little bit. I have literally scoured the entire Earth.

The Valdes we probably had but there was so many variations in those days that one is a distant memory.

The Pujols not only exists but was confirmed at the time by Clay Luraschi at Topps and I'll always accept Clay's word on things. Plus we have seen those Puhols cards

Rich

How scarce are the manager cards with the logos?

Attachment 610261

Rich,

I consider you a well respected member of this board and this hobby. I don't know who you are referring to. Is it not possible that he was mistaken correcting the HTA, Opening Day, Chrome, and Refractors? If even 10 or 20 exist, why is there not any evidence of one in existence? And if 10 or 20 exist, why would Topps go through the trouble of correcting it for the flagship regular card? And if more than 10 or 20 exist (just random numbers that I'm pulling out of my head), then surely we would see some out there at some point. I have been searching for over 20 years for just one.

Again. I highly respect your opinion. We may just have to agree to disagree and that's okay.

I didn't see it on any of the lists is #659 Oscar Azocar missing the Logo on the back a known variation?

Attachment 610310

Your two cards are related. They are both from C* sheets that mistakenly were printed with the red plates of a different sheet (A B D E F). So where Azocar was on that sheet, the misprinted red plate belonged to a manager card. And visa versa for the MGR you have. These are print flaws, very cool ones at that.

I do understand your logic here. I have seen enough strange decisions from Topps and other companies ca. the junk era that I am hardly surprised when something turns up that has remained hidden for decades.

And I understand that the existence of the Loretta doesn't prove a Pujols, but it certainly lays out some real consideration for it. Why him and not Pujols. And the card that I saw back in 2007 or 2008 on ebay was absolutely not a parallel of any type but the base card, which is why it was so remarkable. Even back then, I strongly doubted its existence. Could it have been a manipulated photo or some other shenanigans, absolutely but I am in the camp that some of these were made. Whether they ever made into the hobby through the normal channels (wax, factory sets) is another question.

I don't know if this has been discussed previously but there is a stray print mark(s) on the #336 Ken Patterson. Depending on the registration it can be a combination of three different blue, pink and/or white marks. From what I've seen all of the Patterson cards with the TM in the middle of the banner have some form of the mark while all of the Patterson cards with the TM high in the banner lack any form of the stray print mark.

Just for a reference on the already documented High TM variation all of my 91 Topps were wax pack pulled in 91 and 1 out of the 10 Pattersons that I have is the high TM variation.

[IMG]https://photos.imageevent.com/patric...aks/img211.jpg[/IMG]

We can and should agree to disagree: Clay L. was at the time the PR contact at Topps and has moved up since then on the corporate ladder. I don't know his exact postion today but he is extremely knowledgeable about the hobby and things related to Topps. We took his word in 2002 and we'll take his word today :)

Thanks for the gracious attitude. I'm sure he is very knowledgeable and I'm not saying I am more knowledgeable than him or anyone else. For my own sake I'm just going to refuse to believe one exists until I see one. To me logic would dictate that some evidence would show up besides someone's word that could have been confused easily by the HTA correction.

Also I would like to add that I sure hope one doesn't exist because if I ever found one it would probably put me back a dollar or two! LOL

Interesting on the print mark.

I think that your ratio may be affected by what packaging types you bought in 1991. I have never encountered any difficulty in locating either TM placement. I'd even stopped pulling his card when I came across them for this reason.

Hey Dylan. If my post came off as suggesting that that's the ratio of the TM placement that's not what I intended. I don't know anything about the Topps packaging but I know guys like you who are very knowledgeable about the Topps products use the packaging/regional information for some of the variations.

All of the 91 Topps that I have came from wax packs that were purchased in Eastern NY and the two back print logo errors that I posted came from those packs.

I actually saved the empty boxes for several years before I finally threw them out. I do still have a box with 25 or 30 unopened packs in it.

Attachment 610380

Attachment 610381

My collecting parameters for Topps used to be anything and everything listed in the Standard Catalog from 1948 to 1994.The Catalog was the first place I saw reference to the Pujols and started looking. After 1994 the proliferation of Topps baseball offerings doubled and I limited myself to the base set and any update/traded set ( and later all the Heritage sets).

But that Parameter included Box bottom cards like those pictured by Pat above. They used to be listed in the Catalog as sets until 2011 when SCD dropped post 1980 listings. So at least until 1994, if there were cards on the boxes, I have a set of each :).

Given what Rich and Dylan have posted I will try to remain open minded on the Pujols. But I also know Shane and his absolute dedication to his Cardinal collection and his search for even very rare Cardinal cards ( anyone else have a 55 Topps Hocus Focus Wally Moon ?). So I feel a little like Thomas....a little doubtful until I touch one or someone who has it posts it ;) :)

I wish I could give info on 1991 Topps with accuracy and certainty but aside from a handful of variations appearing in only one packing type ("picture cards" vs. "bubble gum cards" for example) it really is a big mess and hard to pin everything down. I've had two periods of serious documentation attempts: 2005-2007 and 2023 with a ton opened in between. I keep finding that there is a large number of err/cor combinations for most packaging types. Without opening cases with date stamps, it remains a crapshoot!

I appreciate the compliment, Al. I love the "Doubting Thomas" reference from the Bible!

I knew I pulled a few but I couldn't remember who they were I only remembered it was nothing great.

When I pulled out the 5k box with my 91 & 92 Topps in it a few days ago the four that I pulled were in it.

Attachment 610545

Attachment 610546

Besides the third version dark red I'm seeing a third version lighter red that so far I've only seen on the C sheet. Like the darker third version this has odd reaction under UV lighting it's not a glow back but the borders have "semi" glow under UV

Attachment 610598

Attachment 610599

It's the one on the right in the top photo and in the middle of the bottom photo.

Here's a recurring variation that I haven't seen posted anywhere yet. Smoltz with a splash/spill variation that also affected some Liebrandt cards who is next to him on the C sheet. Smoltz is on the edge of the C sheet.


Here's two of the variations with a normal Smoltz in the middle and a Liebrandt variation next to a Smoltz

Attachment 610911

Attachment 610912

Attachment 610913

Murphy/Olsen
 

Anyone have pics of these two variations? I’ve looked at dozens of each but can’t be sure I actually have the two versions of each. Thanks.

What variations?