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What are you top 5 20th century boxing cards?
Hey everybody.... I have been thinking about this for awhile and really cannot get past the top 2 for me.
My top card is the T226 (Red Sun) Jack Johnson and my #2 is the Leaf Rocky Graziano.... What do you guys think? What other cards would you put on the list (excepting grade premiums)... |
Need a bit more definition as to the question.
Top 5 most expensive? Top 5 most important for a collection? Top 5 rarities? This is pretty much the most expensive list: 1948 Leaf Graziano is far and away the most costly E125 Johnson is probably #2 T226 Johnson is probably #3 T229 Kopec Johnson I'd rank just below T226 For the final spot I could see any of these: T229 Pet Johnson T220 Silver Border Jas. J. Corbett or Mike Donovan 1938 NX5 American Sweets Joe Louis They rarely come to market, so the issue is really academic until we get a few on the ol' auction block. Now, if we go with essential for a collection, I'd argue these: T218 Jack Johnson side view: the key card to the most widely collected T set 1951 Ringside Marciano: the key RC in Topps' only boxing issue 1960 Hemmett Cassius Clay: IMO the RC of the most important boxer of the latter half of the century. 1935 Pattriouex Joe Louis: The RC of the most important boxer of the first half of the century 1997 Brown's Mayweather or 1999 World Boxing Pacquiao or 1986 Panini Tyson: the most important regular issue cards made in the last 30+ years. But if you are looking for rarity, there are just a ton of possibilities, from 1 or two known example type cards to SPs from major sets. I honestly don't know where even to begin such a list. 1948 Tabay Joe Louis, issued for a month in Spain? 1931 Bigott? Maybe a nice Trinidad y Hnos. Dempsey premium? Or a Lucky Heart Louis? How about the 1904 Sporting Life Jeffries-Munroe cabinet card? 1910 New England Gum Co. Jeffries and Johnson flip card? I don't have an answer... Perhaps a better frame on the question is to ask which 5 cards you would most want to own if you could not sell them, making value irrelevant. My list of favorite cards to own would be these: http://photos.imageevent.com/exhibit...ohnson%201.jpg http://photos.imageevent.com/exhibit...ng%20Fists.jpg http://photos.imageevent.com/exhibit...eli%20Clay.jpg http://photos.imageevent.com/exhibit...y%20boxers.jpg http://photos.imageevent.com/exhibit...37%20Louis.jpg |
I don't collect 20th century. But think Adams list is pretty accurate. Although the T220 Silver Border Corbett and Donavan makes me feel like we are collecting refractors. Just not my preference.
Al, didn't know you had the Graziano Leaf. Your boxing collection is top notch. |
Nothing shiny there, Aaron. Just a set that quite a few people actively collect with two notorious short prints. I quit and sold off mine when I realized I wasn't willing to chase the Corbett; there were so many other cards I'd rather own.
BTW I consigned a nice cluster of American Sweets cards to LOTG for the fall boxing auction. I kept Louis: I'm not crazy after all. |
Great list Adam....
I think that your criteria is the right one... what would you rather own if you could not sell them. I would probably drop the Leaf, then (which I do not own and probably won't). The reason why I like the T226 is the photographic image, the green borders and the Red Sun back. It is just one of the most eye appealing cards that I own. I think that the Kopec and the Pet Johnsons are good choices as well.
What do you guys think of the Romeo y Julieta Johnson and Dempsey cards. Should they be considered? |
I'd think a t9 would have to be on the list Johnson or attel.
1956 adventure schmelling a possibility due to the story behind it? All great cards mentioned. |
I think another candidate to add to the list is T227 Johnson. Great image and the large format makes it all the more appealing.
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Yeah that T218 side view Johnson is such a remarkable card. It's a gorgeous card (as opposed to some of his other high value cards), it's from Johnson's prime, and you can always find one for cheap.
I don't know about most iconic or most valuable but that card is a gem. There's plenty of other cards I'd be willing to throw into consideration for the top five from that set (Langford, Jeannette, Nelson). I also really love the T220 Peter Jackson card. It's a retrospective card but still fantastic in appearance and bio. The 1908 Ogden's Joe Gans card, which is may be his first card is a really cool card. Speaking of Ogden's, I'll throw in the 1902 Series A "Jem" Jefferies card. Additionally I think the 1908 Ogden's Tommy Burns card is great as it talks about him being world champ on the back. By the next year's set, there would be an odd pictured Jack Johnson card extolling his virtues. It's an interesting snapshot of boxing history. I'm not sure how many Burns cards there are which mention him as the current champ. Ah, enjoy it while it lasts Tommy. |
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The R y J Johnson is not an attractive card, IMO: http://photos.imageevent.com/exhibit...%20Johnson.jpg Kind of a crappy picture in a not so pretty format. It is rare as hell and very valuable, but doesn't do it for me, which is why I sold mine when the chance presented itself. He has a lot of nicer looking cards. The Dempseys (there are 2 different poses and at least three distinct cards known) are better looking than the Johnson but still not that great looking. http://photos.imageevent.com/exhibit...psey%20hor.jpg Someone has been trying to sell a Dempsey on eBay for a while. Price has been reduced from $4500 to $1800 as of this morning, so go get it! As for T9s and T227, I thought long and hard about adding either to my list but came back again to the T218 as a favorite card. I think it just looks better. T218 has some other gems in it. I also really like Stan: http://photos.imageevent.com/exhibit...%20Ketchel.jpg Here's another card I absolutely love from a design standpoint: http://photos.imageevent.com/exhibit...utographed.jpg |
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I love pre-WWI cards and history. Here's some of my suggestions, most of which I already talked about..
Another gorgeous T218 https://s16.postimg.org/9jwk39thh/lang.jpg T220 Peter Jackson https://s10.postimg.org/6xhi61qzd/jackson.jpg 1902 Ogden's Jefferies and Fitzsimmons. https://s16.postimg.org/i4sez3gc5/jefferies.jpg It's hard to go wrong with T225. Beautiful set https://s18.postimg.org/79a7v5hvd/nels.jpg https://s12.postimg.org/87p5ny3wd/jen.jpg https://s4.postimg.org/mfls3ssu5/ketch.jpg |
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I only own 1 20th Century Boxing Card, so I guess it's my favorite. It's the Romeo y Julieta John L. Sullivan vs. Jake Kilrain card. I love that it shows them as old men, rather than using an old photo from their fighting days. I still need to find the Sullivan/Corbett from this set.
As far as pure aesthetics go, I'd have to choose the Ogdens Boer War Bob Fitzsimmons and the Susini Jack Johnson. I don't own either, and have only ever seen 1 example of the Fitz. |
I was thinking of the Susini Johnson as an example of a much better looking Cuban card than the R y J.
The Ogdens is interesting; wouldn't mind having it as a type card. That company got around; there are some rare Aussie Ogdens cards too, like this Peter Jackson, which has only a few known examples: http://photos.imageevent.com/exhibit...ackson%201.JPG ETA: so yeah, I bought it even with the corner missing. One of the best parts of boxing cards is how far-flung they are. I have stuff from every continent except Antarctica, and if penguins could box there'd probably be cards of those too. That's one reason why it is so hard to assess rarity. How do you even begin when there are so many cards of 5 or fewer specimens from all over the world? |
That Jackson card is so amazing. I constantly hope that one day I'll stumble across one. Probably not very likely. Definitely deserves to be in the top 5. I love that the card says "Champion pugilist of the world." Damn straight.
Agreed on your points about how far flung these cards are. Just another fun aspect of collecting pugilist cards that some of our card collecting brethren miss out on. |
I was reading up on Bob Fitzsimmons recently. Really cool guy who was a sparring partner of Jackson's for a bit. He was quoted as saying something like future generations will look poorly upon fighters who draw a color line. Very astute thinking for the time.
I also loved that Fitzsimmons publicly refused to fight Peter Jackson. Not because he was black (like Sullivan claimed) but because he was a bad dude (and I mean that in the best of ways). So much really cool history in the sport. |
Andy, that's my Fitz Ogdens. Found it in the strangest of places (old antique bookshop within a folder of cards). Hadn't ever seen one in my time of collecting. Also found two of the Ogden's Jacksons in odd places in Australia (within 2 weeks of each other !). The only two I have ever seen however is the one Adam has posted, and the one I have sitting at home.
In terms of nice looking cards, it's hard to go past the T218's, T9's and T220's. http://photos.imageevent.com/boxingc...218Obrien2.jpg http://photos.imageevent.com/boxingc...T9Oqubrien.jpg http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/NTQ5WDQyOQ...FWQm-B/$_1.JPG As for my favorites, for pure image aesthetics, I cannot go past the Felix Potin Jack Johnson - still one of my favorite cards in my collection. http://photos.imageevent.com/boxingc...tinJohnson.jpg The La Morena's have some funky images. http://host.jwcinc.net/712533/brent/.../765_133_3.jpg The Aussie stadium cards around the WW1 period had some awesome graphics http://photos.imageevent.com/boxingc...s/mcgoorty.jpg http://photos.imageevent.com/boxingc...immyClabby.jpg And I always liked the colors on the Danish Rich's cards: http://photos.imageevent.com/boxingc...chsDempsey.jpg |
Wowza that Aussie card is sharp. Also super jealous about your Jackson finds.
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Some of those stadium promotional cards were wacky:
https://image.invaluable.com/housePh...-L89328913.jpg https://image.invaluable.com/housePh...-L89328876.jpg |
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As long as we're talking crazy-ass rarities I have to give a shout out to Adam Hats: http://photos.imageevent.com/exhibit...0LaMotta_1.jpg http://photos.imageevent.com/exhibit...n_%20Billy.jpg http://photos.imageevent.com/exhibit...15%20Soose.jpg http://photos.imageevent.com/exhibit...%20Krieger.jpg |
Them's some good looking hats!
Out of curiosity, was there any 19th Century Peter Jackson cards produced? I have your book but don't remember it being mentioned. Awesome stuff everyone. This thread has turned into a nice show and tell. |
19th Century Jackson Cards:
N310 Mayo would be the easiest to find and afford. There is an N338 SF Hess. And the N566 Newsboy cabinets. And N266 Jackson-Slavin. |
19th Century Jackson Card
There is also an N174 Old Judge produced in Australia. There are 2 variations listed of the SF Hess. Does anyone know what the difference between the 2 cards is?
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I can't believe I forgot that; I used to have an N174 Jackson.
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Really cool. Thanks so much for the info. I'm going to keep my eyes peeled for one of those issues. There's a few 19th Century cards I've been slowly hunting for in my price range. I didn't realize that Jackson was so prominent in that era's cards.
Thanks for sharing your knowledge! |
Andy,
The variation for the SF Hess Jackson is the listing of his name. One version has his name listed on the bottom border of the card and the 2nd version has his name listed on the bottom border of the card and the bottom of the photo. I don't have access to my cards right now or I would post pictures of the 2 versions. |
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Thanks.
Fun fact: some of the top cards will be in the Love of the Game fall boxing auction. Confirmed with Al yesterday there will be an E125 Johnson and a T220 silver Jim Corbett. Figured a Corbett would pop up a year after I quit the set. :( |
Very cool... should be a fun auction! Still recovering from Christie's!
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Here is a partial list of cards in the auction. Some of the rarer groups will be split up into individual lots for type collectors.
1920s E282 Oh Boy Gum (Goudey) Jack Dempsey 1931 Cigarreras Bigott Max Schmeling SGC 35 1931 Cigarreras Bigott “N561” Justo Suarez SGC 30 N310 Mayo Cut Plug Jas. J. Corbett SGC 30 1910 T218 Tolstoi Cigarettes James Jeffries SGC 20 1910 T218 Tolstoi Cigarettes Joe Gans SGC 60 1911 T219 Red Cross (6) T229 Kopec Cigarettes Abe Attell SGC 50 1923 Wesley Andrews Jack Dempsey Card SGC 50 1923 Burstein Isaacs James J. Jeffries PSA 7 1938 NX5 American Sweets Knock-Out Bubble Gum (8) 1910 T218 Mecca Jem Driscoll SGC 84 nm 1910 Philadelphia Caramel E80 Abe Attell and Monte Attell SGC 30 1920s W-Unc Blue Boxers Strip Cards (8) Including Benny Leonard SGC Authenticated 1949 Page’s Pittsburgh Milk Co. Jake LaMotta SGC 50 1887 N269 Lorillard John C. Heenan SGC 40 1964 Nestle Joe Frazier Rookie Card SGC 10 1921 W551 Jack Dempsey PSA 6 1935 J.A. Pattreiouex Joe Louis SGC 45 and Jim Braddock SGC 70 1937 Donut Co. of America John L. Sullivan SGC 40 1930s Chocolate Baguer Ruby Goldstein SGC 55 vg-ex+ 1926 Greiling Benny Leonard PSA 1, 1 of 1! W529-3 Uncut Strip Set 1975 Ali-Frazier Thrilla In Manila TEKS Cards (3) 1980 Ali-Holmes TEKS Cards (14) 1931 E. Quintana Doble Aguila Lot of 41 Cards 1926 C.H.L. Gartmann Boxers Set w/PSA Dempsey 1948 Leaf Error Cards 1959 Crack Fulbito (16) 1975 Malaysia “Menko” Muhammad Ali Issues 1950-1962(?) Samuel Eppy & Co. Complete Set 1940s-1950s Canadian Exhibit Cards (22) 1920s W-Unc. Playing Cards Incl. Dempsey, Sullivan, Jack Johnson and 9 others 1947-66 Exhibit Paddy DeMarco SGC 35 w/Rare Postcard Back 1940s-1950s Canadian Exhibit Card Joe Louis 1923 Wesley Andrews Dempsey-Gibbons Real Photo Postcard Collection (18) 1966-82 Panini and Mira Collection (51) 1946 Kid Herman Base Set With Envelope 1940s Parade Sportive Premiums (5) w/Dempsey Brown’s Boxing Sets (8) And Partial Sets (1) There will also be quite a few sets, partial sets and mainstream cards from the 19th and 20th centuries. There will definitely be several lots that could be centerpieces of collections. |
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lol. Sorry. I have the 2008 version of your book and I noticed that you mention Jackson a LOT. I just managed to retain none of the info. :D |
The Mike Tyson 1986 Panini Supersport Italian deserves consideration. It is arguably the most followed boxing sticker and while it isn't exactly rare it is Kid Dynamite from 1985. Moments after Tyson bloodies up Sammy Scaff on December 6th of that year he is interviewed and captured for this image. The UK version came out in 1987 and features images from the Australian Open from that January so there is no disputing which is the rookie of Mike Tyson.
My generation grew up playing Mike Tyson's Punch Out and arguing with elders that he is the best ever. I think of the Tyson Italian similar to the 1986 Fleer Michael Jordan. If you are trying to determine the top basketball cards there are plenty to choose from that are more rare and perhaps more valuable. But popularity counts for something and so it should at least be considered for the list. Top 10 easily. |
I wouldn't put the Tyson in the top 10 cards and certainly not the top five, unless you are starting the list in 1980. As to post-1980 cards I would rank it up there as one of the top five (in date order):
1986 Panini Tyson 1986 Brown's Holyfield 1988 Panini Julio Cesar Chavez 1997 Brown's Mayweather 1999 World Boxing Magazine (Japan) Manny Pacquiao If we push the start date back to the 1970s I think he'd probably be top 5 (though I could see an argument for one or more Ali cards displacing one or more of these guys): 1973 Panini Roberto Duran 1986 Panini Tyson 1986 Brown's Holyfield 1997 Brown's Mayweather 1999 World Boxing Magazine (Japan) Manny Pacquiao But if we push it back beyond 1970 Tyson drops off the list of even the most significant cards of heavyweights, even if we limit it to one card per fighter: E125 Johnson (or T229, T227, etc.) 1921 Romeo y Julieta Jack Dempsey 1935 JA Pattreiouex Sport Celebrities Joe Louis 1951 Ringside Rocky Marciano 1960 Hemmets Cassius Clay (or any of a number of other early Clay cards) If you add in all of the other weight classes and add in multiple cards of fighters, Tyson is nowhere near the top ten. As for comparisons with Jordan, I don't buy it. Jordan is on the short list of greatest players of all time. Tyson is not even close to Jordan-esque range even among heavyweights. The IBRO (2005) ranks the heavies as follows: Joe Louis Muhammad Ali Jack Johnson Jack Dempsey Rocky Marciano Larry Holmes James J. Jeffries George Foreman Sonny Liston Joe Frazier Gene Tunney Lennox Lewis Mike Tyson Evander Holyfield Sam Langford Jersey Joe Walcott Ezzard Charles Harry Wills James J. Corbett Bob Fitzsimmons Tyson doesn't have the resume. He didn't face anything like the guys around in the 1970s; but setting aside that era as a special one, he also did squat against the best of his era. On the way up he beat a bunch of bums, blown up cruiserweights, and an elderly Larry Holmes. Then he got blasted out by Buster Douglas? He didn't face Bowe. After he did his rape time he fought bums and tomato cans before losing to Holyfield and Lewis. He wasn't anywhere near as mentally and physically tough as the prewar fighters. When he was in the deep $hit with Holyfield he melted down rather that gut it out. Dempsey and Louis would have ripped him to pieces, Johnson would have taken an easy decision from him, and Frazier and Marciano would have ruined him permanently as a fighter because they fought the same way he did but with much bigger balls; they would have humiliated him. Frankly, I don't think he was blood and guts enough to beat any of the guys above him on that list, except perhaps for Liston, who was a similarly flawed individual and might have been spooked by Tyson's shtick. That said, he was a legit HOFer and he had a puncher's chance with anyone, same as every elite heavyweight does. |
I don't profess to know a fraction of what you know about boxing or boxing cards/stickers. That said Mike Tyson is Mike Tyson. The most deadly fighter my generation has ever witnessed. Purest like you have always bashed Tyson and always will. Casual boxing fans like me and millions more are enamored with his accomplishments in the ring.
In terms of the sticker. A copy sold for $5,100 on EBAY. There aren't many boxing cards or stickers that ever have. The most famous I am aware of is the Leaf Graziano and obviously it isn't in that realm but popular none the less. The comparison to Jordan isn't suggesting he is the necessarily the greatest of all time but more that a modern card that has a large population is the most liquid basketball card that exists. Actually the most liquid trading card that exists. There are plenty of Tyson's but because of his popularity it is still bringing great money and isn't close to as rare as some on the list. I think a modern fighter should be featured in the top ten for sure and there is no question in my mind it should be Tyson. |
I don't have anything against Tyson, David. As I said, he was a worthy HOF selection and is a top 15 heavyweight. However, when viewed objectively, he is not a top-ten heavy for the reasons I stated. He could have been better if he'd been a better person, perhaps, but when gut-checked he was found wanting. He lost three prime years because he raped a woman and got his ass kicked by the two best fighters of his generation. He doesn't even measure up favorably in head to head battles with his elite contemporaries. That doesn't make me or the many other researchers who've ranked him "purists", just objective analysts. My favorite of the modern era is Lennox Lewis: I think he was better than Tyson but I wouldn't rank him with Ali or Dempsey or Johnson.
Now as far as the cards go, again, I am trying to be objective. I don't have any stake in this list, financial or otherwise. I have the modern cards as a collector but that's about where it ends for me; I don't have multiple copies of them sitting around so I have no reason to build a market for them, and I don't want more of them so I don't have any reason to tear down a market for them. You are correct that there is a PSA 10 Tyson that allegedly sold for $5,100 last year. Was it your purchase, because I see that you posted one in another thread about Tyson cards that you started last December? If not, do you know if it was an actual sale? Because from where I am sitting it looks very much like a Probstein/PWCC fake sale during the run-up. The prior sale was $1324.99; the next reported sales were $2650, $1927, and $2125. All strong sales to be sure, but not even close to top ten all time. For example, just taking Heritage's past results: 1948 Leaf Graziano: $29,875.00 E125 Jeffries: $19,120.00 T226 Johnson: $19,120.00 N167 Smith: $8,962.50 N386 Sullivan: $6,572.50 E125 Johnson: $5,975.00 I also know of multiple private sales in excess of $5,000 for individual cards and many more above $2,500. I also don't operate on the paradigm that there 'should' be a modern fighter on the list. That is not a logical argument. It is a form of logical fallacy called a moralistic fallacy. Plus I am old enough to consider Ali a modern fighter :( It is a nice and significant card, no doubt about that--I said it is one of the top five cards of the last 35 years--but viewed objectively and in context of all boxing cards I don't think it is the stuff dreams are made of. |
I purchased my copy from a member on CU a few years ago. The Tyson that sold was indeed sold. I know the person who sent it to PWCC.
Actually the Probstein "fake sale" wasn't so fake. The same person who sold the Italian copy through PWCC bought that UK back from Rick's consignor for $5,600. The auction was clearly shilled but a different buyer did indeed buy it and as far as I know still owns it. Recent sales have been closer to 2k for the UK back as more participants I believe realize it isn't the actual rookie. I have a good number of the Tyson stickers so in some ways I am biased but I can tell you the reaction when people see them in person is quite strong and I think that is why so many collectors over the past few years have been snatching them up. |
Let's get this going again. I've bougth and sold numerous "expensive" cards. That is NOT what makes a boxing card great. We are talking era, fighter, aesthetics, rarity, but not price, ..........certainly more factors. I am a Jack Johnson freak..............fascinating man and IBFHOF boxer. He has my favorite card and another which I consider THE best boxing card ever. Here is my list:
1. T218 Jack Johnson Side View (beautiful) 2. Exhibit Ezzard Charles (most intimidating) 3. 1951 Topps Ringside Joe Louis (the green) 4. T9 Turkey Red Jack Johnson (favorite) 5. 1948 Leaf Joe Louis (something pure, classic) |
This sort of noir movie lighting was common in the 40s and 50s.
http://photos.imageevent.com/exhibit...rles439280.jpg Source photo: http://photos.imageevent.com/exhibit...ge/Charles.jpg |
I absolutely love those pics. I've been meaning to pick up a Charles exhibit card. I don't collect them but just love the photo. As Adam mentioned there's sort of a noir quality.
I grew up around Cincinnati not tremendously far from Ezzard Charles Drive. For such a sports city I think Charles' legacy has been kind of brushed aside for whatever reason. I grew up a big Cincy sports fan but only vaguely knew that Charles was some boxer. It's too bad really. The Cincinnati Cobra is definitely one of the greatest athletes affiliated with the region. |
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Got rid of most of my post-1890 boxing cards years ago, but I always loved my Ogdens and saved them. Here are a few of my favorites:
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Those look really nice, I could see why you have managed to keep them.
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Very nice. Aussie and Boer War?
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Hi Adam! I have attached back scans. The Jackson is an Aussie issue. Not sure about the Boer War--the cards appear blank backed (Fitzsimmons is trimmed).
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