Gentlemen:

I opened this up for discussion in the memorabilia section to see if any of the photo collectors would be able to date the photo in question.

There is some VERY INTERESTING information and comments over there.

You can read it here:

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=175818

I have in kind, "invited" them over to our discussion here. After reading some of the later posts there I feel we are getting closer to an answer.

Fred

Howard:

I first came across one of these at the old Willow Grove show in PA during the 1980's. So these were "out" long before the SCD Standard catalog was issued.

I collected extensively in the late 60's into the mid 70's and would have picked these up then if I had ever seen them. So, what you are saying is very possible, but I have no way of knowing for sure.

Maybe someone has some old SCD's or other old collector issues and can determine when the "1951 Wheaties" first showed up on the scene.

Anyone?????

As for photo/paper experts, it is well above my paygrade! ;>)

Fred

Definitely an interesting discussion over on that end. Glad to see some photo experts weigh in. It is amazing what they know about photos.

I am still leaning towards 1951. New York had very high expectations for Mantle, and I cannot think of a reason why he would not be included in a 1951 issue.

Hi Fred,

Well, I believe I've solved the date issue for the Wheaties Mantle photo. In my previous post I mentioned that the photo was definitely taken by Yankee photographer Don Wingfield at Ebbets Field. I checked with Henry Yee and he confirmed both statements. We also both agreed that the photo was from either 1951 or 1952.

I finally found the photo I mentioned that had an Oct 1952 date on the back. Indeed it was taken by Wingfield on Oct. 6, 1952 at the WS at Ebbets Field as Graig had suggested. So if this is true the chances of the Wheaties Mantle "card" being produced in 1951 is not looking good.

Hope all this helps.

Cheers,

Craig

Maybe it's just me, and maybe it's because I'm only looking at scans, but that looks to me like the Mantle image was superimposed on the stadium background.

No Bob, this image is unaltered and printed from the original negative.

Craig

Hey Craig:

GREAT detective work! Thanks for confirming my thoughts on the year of issue. Now we know it can not be a 1951 set!

As I mentioned over on the postwar section my belief is it is much more likely to be a 1954/55 issue due to the inclusion of three of the 1954 AL Champion Indians. Maybe Bob Lemke can shed some light on the origins of this set and how it came to be known (now erroneously) as a 1951 Wheaties set.

Thanks again for your hard work.

Fred

Hey Bob:

How about it? Do you have any recollection of when this set showed up in the hobby? How did it get the designation of 1951 and as a Wheaties issue?

I understand that SOME of the same photos were used in the 1952 Wheaties set, and some thought it to be a test for that set. But now that we know it can't be a 1951 issue I am wondering how it all started.

Any light you can shed would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

Fred

Proven 1951 Wheaties set is not from 1951. Was it even issued by Wheaties?
 

Hi Chris:

SORRY to burst your bubble. But Craig over on the memorabilia forum has proved beyond a doubt that the Mantle photo is from Oct. 6, 1952

See:http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...=175818&page=3

Thus it could not have been issued in 1951.

So now we know that the 1951 Wheaties set is NOT from 1951, it is time to wonder if it is a Wheaties set at all or issued by another company.

I have reached out to Bob Lemke to see if he has any recollections of the genesis of the set over on the memorabilia forum. You may want to follow over there to see what his response is.

Next we have to contact those at SCD who put out the Standard Catalog to make some kind of revision on the listing for the set.

Fred

I don't think Craig has proven anything beyond a reasonable doubt--that is a very high standard and I still have my doubts. Pretty strong evidence that it is not from 1951 though. Owell. Still one of the most attractive cards made of him.

Hey Chris, you start erasing some of those 0's of that asking price yet?
This discussion has become very interesting and i have been digging thru and researching myself proving whether or not it is 'Wheaties'.
Great Stuff!!!

Hahah, the price is perfectly fair Chris!

The 51 wheaties premium photo might be just mis-represented.

I just gave you a heads up on a nice 52 #311 coming up soon. Depsite a nice 2 on ebay, but claims it their grandpas --go figure?? going for now just under 5k with 1 hour left
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1952-Mickey-...item19e2657900 by angela.momberger
Has a front/back pic, but unable to zoom on the front.

Yea, also selling a 52 Wax Pack and a Babe Ruth auto ball... I made one bid on that card then realized it was not worth the risk.

Mantle
 

Fred,

Thanks for the input. Mantle was considered a rookie phenom by most of the sportswriters of that day as evidenced by this article in the NY Times from April 6, 1951 (partial copy of headline):

MICKEY CHARLES MANTLE, the new 19-year-old right fielder for the New York Yankees, is, in the opinion of most sports writers, the most promising young man to enter big-league baseball since the ascension of Joe DiMaggio, who thinks, without any editorial equivocation at all, that Mantle is the greatest rookie he has ever seen. "Greatest" is a word used....

Great info & very good discussion guys. One of the reason I love this board.

Z Wheat

'51 Mantle
 

Howard,

I had contacted General Mills archives and they stated they were not aware that they issued these. It is not altogether surprising since they archives had started in 1980 and the person I spoke with was certain that they did not have all available knowledge. However, they did have knowledge of issuing a set of color pictures with a metal frame as a separate mail in redemption. You can find these on eBay.

One of the earlier auctions suggested the '51 Wheaties Premiums were "liberated" along with some perfect examples of the boxes, from the issuing company. I do not remember the exact wording, but with some digging I am sure I can find the exact phrasing. This really doesn't pin down the year any better, but it does leave open the possibility that this may not be a General Mills issue.

Z Wheat

I know little about these issues, which of course doesn't stop me from giving my two cents. First, there is always the possibility that these premiums were issued over multiple years- 3 or 4 per year. We as collectors are often so adamant about making sure a particular year fits our needs that we are close-minded to the prospect of multiple-year issues.

Second, it is possible that these were issued in 1952. Maybe the idea was hey, if you like the drawings/illustrations on the '51 mini boxes (scarce until a hoard of unused was found in mid-1990s) and '52 regular boxes, you'll love the photos on which some of these were based. The Legendary auction site showing the 11 cards says that there were contract problems with Rosen and Mantle, which could explain why those were issued later than others. Also, the regular '52 cards apparently issued in series running through at least series "L" (see ads below, pulled from current ebay auctions)--maybe one premium was associated with each series of the cereal box cards and they were released at different times throughout the year. Also note that they advertised 60 cards, and L is the 12th letter of the alphabet. Maybe there were 5 cards per series?--I'll let the Wheaties experts chime in on that.

Just food for thought (pun unintended).


http://i.ebayimg.com/t/1952-Wheaties...+e!~~60_57.JPG
http://i.ebayimg.com/t/1952-Wheaties...qG!~~60_57.JPG

i was researching ads and photos and found some info worth passing on to those that collect mantle photos:
http://www.sportscollectorsdigest.com/mantle12

and found this site on Wheaties:
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vau...85/5/index.htm
Wheaties' performance peaked in the early '40s. Then World War II caused a temporary wheat shortage. After the war came television and supermarkets and, as a result, newer and jazzier cereals. The costs of commercials started to increase. Wheaties stopped sponsoring sports broadcasts and began relying on athletes' testimonials, which inexplicably lost their effectiveness when they hit the TV screen. Even Jack Armstrong began to lose his appeal, and his switch to the Scientific Bureau of Investigation didn't help. Jack died in 1951.

Wheaties' early TV commercials featured the likes of Ted Williams, Sam Snead, Bob Feller and basketball star Bob Davies, the model for Clair Bee's Chip Hilton. The theme was "What sparks a champion, sparks you," and there was always the reminder that there's a whole kernel of wheat in every Wheaties flake. In another set of early commercials, Mel Allen would say, "One of the things I like to do is talk about Wheaties. The other is to eat them." In 1954 Wheaties signed up the Yankee rookie Mickey Mantle.

But sales continued to dwindle, and General Mills decided to change direction. It made the monumental blunder of pulling Wheaties out of sports. The cereal went from Mickey Mantle to Mickey Mouse in hopes of capturing the children's market. The traditional silhouette of an athlete was replaced on the box by one of a child. Wheaties signed on The Lone Ranger and Wyatt Earp. The result was that while more kids were eating the stuff, many more adults were abandoning the Breakfast of Mouseketeers. In one year, 1956, sales dropped more than 10%. Even the revelation in that May's issue of Confidential magazine that Frank Sinatra was the "Tarzan of the Boudoir" because "he eats Wheaties" didn't help.

I always thought this A2623 newspaper ad premium 1954 Wheaties premium was something of resemblance:
http://i.ebayimg.com/t/A2623-newspap...N0iQ~~60_3.JPG

Found this photo dating to October 5-7th 1952 from the World Series
http://sports.mearsonlineauctions.co...entoryid=38183
http://sports.mearsonlineauctions.co...c441e6_lg.jpeg
http://sports.mearsonlineauctions.co...68faa7_lg.jpeg

Hi Guys,

Hope you don't mind me invading your thread for a moment. Don't know anything about the '1951" Wheaties series but would like to try to underscore the significance of the dated Type I photo that I posted for Fred in evaluating the date of the photo used for his Wheaties "card".

One of the best forms of documentation for determining the time frame within which a photo was issued includes a vintage, first generation image with a dated byline and photographer's original, period stamping. In this case, 10/6/1952, at Ebbets Field during the WS taken by Yankee photographer Don Wingfield working for The Sporting News at that time.

If you look closely at the other 1952 photo with Reese posted in this thread you will see the same two blemishes - one on Mickey's right cheek, the other slightly below his lower lip on the right side in both photos.

So for what it may be worth, in my opinion, the photo on which the Wheaties "card" is based is absolutely from 1952.

Sorry for the intrusion and good luck with your quest for the final answers on the Wheaties issue.

Cheers,

Craig

Sorry, I can't remember who first brought the set to our attention, when or how it was tied to Wheaties.

Someone with a run of Standard Catalogs could date the "discovery" by its first inclusion in the big book.

'51 Wheaties
 

Todd,

I don't mean to be pedantic here but the wording Legendary used suggested that the issuer produced the cards prior to actually signing a contract and then after they could not consummate an appropriate contract, halted production, thus the rarity.

Their wording in the auction also seems to suggest they know more than detailed in the auction description as they suggest the images were used in
'51 & '52 Wheaties boxes from the same Wheaties Premium set. The distinction is subtle but suggests the images were lifted out of archives of the issuing company. Other auctions date the emergence of pristine examples "...to the early '90's."


Z Wheat

'51 Mantle Premium
 

There is some great info on the Memorabilia side and I think without their help, we will never solve this issue.

Accordingly, I have asked Leon to combine the two 2 threads....so the answers/responses might be a little jumbled.

Z Wheat

done

Agreed. Their knowledge is insane.

I didn't take it as pedantic and wouldn't care if you were. I somewhat agree with your explanation, although I took the auction description to mean not that they had halted production, but that they completed production and had to delay release pending a signed contract. I say this because I was not aware that the Mantle photo was conspicuously scarcer than the others--I thought they were all scarce "test" issues with only the Cousy, Kramer and Hogan (plus maybe Rizzuto) being tougher. I stand corrected if that's not the case.

Anyway, I wasn't very clear in my last post when I said they may have been issued in 1952. Since we know the Mantle could not have been even printed until October of that year at the very earliest and given the time/process of obtaining rights, etc. it was likely later, it would seem that these premiums could have been issued over multiple years, commencing in either 1951 or, more likely, IMO, beginning in 1952 and stretching into at least 1953.

I am by no means an expert on Wheaties; indeed I don't even collect them except I have four of the 6 unfolded mini-boxes from '51 and 2-3 of the cut cards from 1952. I would hope those who do collect or who are old enough to remember can help here. Seems convenient that the cards were issued in 12 series (or were there more?)--that would line up to a new series being issued each month during 1952. Maybe one premium was associated with each series, as there appear to have been 12 such premiums if you include the Hogan, Kramer and Cousy. Maybe the premiums were to be a redemption promotion that got scrapped. I do not know what evidence there is that these were ever a true "test" issue as is often acclaimed. I have far more questions than answers, but wanted to throw out some ideas.

And Just To Further Muddy The Waters.....
 

http://imagehost.vendio.com/a/204295...BIGPIC_NEW.JPG




.......lower right corner , in the border : '' MOSS PHOTO , N.Y. ''
.......the '' MICKEY MANTLE '' was put on before the final finishing step ; it's inside and under the strong gloss .
..... Neither I nor the seller knew what we were dealing with when I bought it .
...8 x 10 black and white but I had left the scanner setting on '' color photo '' and tweaked the contrast to bring out any details...... NO pinstripes .
.....you guys are awesome .

Schalow
 

Guys,

This side of the board has been too quiet lately and motions have been made to invite Adrian back - with the caveat that he can only post on this board. :)

I was doing some additional fact checking, etc. and came across information I thought might be useful. The inclusion of Betty Schalow, the lone non-baseball player in the set seemed a little odd and I assumed there must be a connection. It appears that Schalow was a popular skater in the early '50's with the Ice Follies. The Ice Follies was a new ice skating production that toured the US, featuring, in part, a solo skating routine of the single Ms. Schalow. At the time, the Ice Follies were competing for business with the Ice Capades. I came across an auction for one of her Wheaties Premium cards. The auction description indicated that the cards were "salesman's samples" as explained by the seller. The seller of the card, coincidentally, was a salesman from General Mills.

Although information on Schalow was not easy to come by, the Ice Follies annual programs included quite a bit of information on her. She was covered fairly extensively in the newspapers in cities where she performed. An article indicated she was born in St. Paul, MN. Coincidentally, this is close to General Mills headquarters, presumed issuer of the set.

I think this kind of brings us full circle. There seems to be too much evidence affirming the set was issued by General Mills, not only due to the inclusion of Schalow, but that this card was part of a salesman sample of cards for General Mills; further, these cards were either produced over several years or at least some of them post-Oct. 1952. I think more than likely the set was issued later than 1952.


Z Wheat

bumped thread
 

BUMPED THREAD

With the increased prices in 1951 Mantle cards, I thought I would look into the "1951 Wheaties" Mantle.

Then I stumbled upon this thread.

There seems to be enough evidence that shows that this premium may not really date to 1951. So without any evidence dating this item to 1951 (not alone any other year) why isn't this advertised as a 1951-1955 Item or something similar to show that the actual date has not been identified?

Is this a case where money talks? That people aren't going to change the identification of the item because it would sell for less?

I'm glad you brought this thread back after so many years. A few months ago I almost bought one of these "1951 Wheaties." As I always do before a decent-sized purchase, I read everything I could on the subject. This very thread is the sole reason I didn't spend 4-figures on the card. After reading the arguments posted, I am extremely wary about this card. With the photo being taken in 1952 and General Mills not having any info on it, I simply will not spend that kind of money on it. The theory that these may have been "planted" in the market 20 years ago makes enough sense for me to pass on this issue.

Right. I take it for granted that the research has been done and the years established on items. I had been doing research and ran across this thread a few months ago. Then as I saw prices going up for 1951 items, it seemed to me that someone else may benefit from this thread. Even if in the end they felt this could have been issued in 1951, at least they have been educated.

For reference reasons: Added pics of TYPE 1 PHOTO (auctioning off by SCP March 2016)

Lot #736:
10/6/1952 MICKEY MANTLE ORIGINAL PSA/DNA TYPE 1 PHOTOGRAPH TAKEN BY DON WINGFIELD BEFORE WORLD SERIES GAME 6 (HILLERICH & BRADSBY LOA)









Bidding



It's one of the most famous Mantle images ever shot, the work of renowned Yankees team photographer Don Wingfield, whose stamp appears on reverse. Wingfield's imagery has appeared in Life and Look magazines, innumerable team publications and even a variety of period trading cards. This particular shot, snapped at Ebbets Field during the 1952 World Series, was utilized for the Mantle representation in the 1951 Wheaties set. This apparent anachronistic impossibility would indicate that the Wheaties set was a multi-year issue, and one that utilized a bit of pre-Photoshop trickery as the Mick's road grays were lightened and pinstriped for a home field appearance, the Ebbets Field background eliminated in the process.
The black & white photo of Mantle in a batting pose was taken before Game 6 of the 1952 World Series against the Brooklyn Dodgers. Trailing 3 games to 2 in the series and nursing a 2-1 lead going into the top of the 8th, Mantle blasted a solo shot to give the Yankees the insurance run that proved to be the difference as they won the possible elimination game 3-2. The Yanks went on to defeat the Dodgers in the deciding Game 7. It's among the most iconic images of a young Mickey Mantle from the day he saved the 1952 World Series.

Short of a couple corner bends confined almost entirely to the white borders, the 8" by 10" image presents flawlessly, with secondary stamping on reverse attributing the first generation print to the collection of leading bat manufacturer Hillerich & Bradsby. A 2004 letter of provenance from John A. Hillerich IV confirms this history, and encapsulation from PSA/DNA assures Type 1 status.

LOA from Hillerich & Bradsby Co. PSA/DNA Type 1 cert# 1P04862

http://catalog.scpauctions.com/ItemI...0031A_med.jpeg
http://catalog.scpauctions.com/ItemI...0031B_med.jpeg
http://catalog.scpauctions.com/10_6_...-LOT34195.aspx

Thank you
 

Partial set of these in the Golden Auction.... includes Mantle..... but this is not for me. Glad to hear about all the uncertainties about the dates and the more I read the more I think this is a later and not earlier issue. Hence I will pass on these ..... and thanks to all who did the research! CAVEAT EMPTOR!! or something like that..........

You bumped a two year old thread to tell us about an auction you won't be bidding on? I'm assuming it's your consignment?

Ouch
 

I know it`s a loooooooooooong shot but was hoping this auction item might fly "somewhat" under the radar. Oh well..................

Interesting read in these premiums! I bought one on eBay yesterday after doing some research but didn’t see this thread until now 🙄
So even though these aren’t form 1951, they are still eye appealing and sell for a decent amount. At the end of the day, you either love it or not, regardless of the year.

1951 Wheaties Premium A8491I Ben Hogan
 

I just purchased 10 of the 11 1951 Wheaties Premiums and listed them on E-Bay.
The A8491I Card in question is a Ben Hogan card. Only three have been PSA graded. A8449L Is Jack Kramer and Non have ever been PSA graded.