Best Baseball Player Depicted in T206 Not in the Hall of Fame
 

Posted By: <b>Darren</b><p>My votes are <br /><br />Pitcher--Ed Reulbach<br />non-Pitcher--Sherwood Magee<br /><br />

Best Baseball Player Depicted in T206 Not in the Hall of Fame
 

Posted By: <b>Marty Ogelvie</b><p><P>Hal Chase&nbsp; (5 of 'em, I think).</P><P>&nbsp;</P><br><br>martyOgelvie<br /><a href="http://www.nyyankeecards.com">New York Yankee cards</a>

Best Baseball Player Depicted in T206 Not in the Hall of Fame
 

Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Heine Zimmerman won the Triple Crown.

Best Baseball Player Depicted in T206 Not in the Hall of Fame
 

Posted By: <b>Darren</b><p>Marty, <br /><br />Yes there are five different poses of Hal Chase in T206, but I'd take Magee over him as a player. I'd probably take Donlin, Daubert, Schulte, and a few others over him as well. I chose Reulbach as my pitcher but could have been just as happy with Cicotte.

Best Baseball Player Depicted in T206 Not in the Hall of Fame
 

Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Now that I think about, Bill Dahlen was the best non-HOfer.

Best Baseball Player Depicted in T206 Not in the Hall of Fame
 

Posted By: <b>Bob</b><p>Turkey Mike Donlin and Big Ed Reulbach, tie.

Best Baseball Player Depicted in T206 Not in the Hall of Fame
 

Posted By: <b>Steve Murray</b><p>Gavvy Cravath

Best Baseball Player Depicted in T206 Not in the Hall of Fame
 

Posted By: <b>Anthony S.</b><p>Deacon Phillippe<br /><br />189-109<br /><br />Six 20-win seasons

Best Baseball Player Depicted in T206 Not in the Hall of Fame
 

Posted By: <b>Joe D.</b><p>"Heine Zimmerman won the Triple Crown."<br /><br />I thought that was Seattle Slew?

Best Baseball Player Depicted in T206 Not in the Hall of Fame
 

Posted By: <b>Lance</b><p>Black Sox, anybody?

Best Baseball Player Depicted in T206 Not in the Hall of Fame
 

Posted By: <b>Sean BH</b><p>I second Gavvy Cravath!<br /><br />Does he make it now? <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

Best Baseball Player Depicted in T206 Not in the Hall of Fame
 

Posted By: <b>Fred C</b><p>I third Cravath but only based on his HR title statistics. That many HR titles is deserving of some recognition. He was hitting HRs in the greatest amounts when it wasn't envogue to do so...

Best Baseball Player Depicted in T206 Not in the Hall of Fame
 

Posted By: <b>Jason L</b><p>Reulbach and Cravath<br />

Best Baseball Player Depicted in T206 Not in the Hall of Fame
 

Posted By: <b>Sean BH</b><p>Motion carries. <br /><br />Cravath is in the HOF!

Best Baseball Player Depicted in T206 Not in the Hall of Fame
 

Posted By: <b>E. Angyal</b><p>What about Ed Cicotte?

Best Baseball Player Depicted in T206 Not in the Hall of Fame
 

Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Seattle Slew and Heinie Zimmerman, in a dead heat! <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

Best Baseball Player Depicted in T206 Not in the Hall of Fame
 

Posted By: <b>Dave S</b><p>Barry--Zimmerman's "Triple Crown" was actually stripped from him, supposedly scoring errors resulted in him finishing third to Honus and Bill Sweeney in RBI's..

Best Baseball Player Depicted in T206 Not in the Hall of Fame
 

Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Dave- interesting. Never heard that one before.

Best Baseball Player Depicted in T206 Not in the Hall of Fame
 

Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>As a kid, I read how Hal Chase (from 1st base) would field a bunt down the 3rd base line and throw the runner out......<br />It left me with a deep impression.<br /><br />As an adult in 1977, the first T206 that I acquired was the Hal Chase blue portrait. Thought he looked like a "cool dude".<br /> Haven't stopped collected this card since.....it's become an obsession.<br /><br /><br /><a href="http://s22.photobucket.com/albums/b331/nudan92/net54%20resized%20photos/?action=view&current=teddyz.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b331/nudan92/net54%20resized%20photos/teddyz.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a><br /><br /><img src="http://www.freephotoserver.com/v001/tedzan/abchaseepdg.jpg"><br /><br /><br />T-Rex TED<br /><br />

Best Baseball Player Depicted in T206 Not in the Hall of Fame
 

Posted By: <b>Jason L</b><p>can we see al the fronts displayed in one scan?!?! That would look cool. Be interested to see any color variation in the blues...<br /><br />Just curious about his fielding bunts along the 3B line...that doesn't speak highly of the Highlander's third-sacker, does it!? <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br />

Best Baseball Player Depicted in T206 Not in the Hall of Fame
 

Posted By: <b>Dave S</b><p>Barry-Here ya go:<br /><br /><a href="http://www.baseball-reference.com/bullpen/Heinie_Zimmerman" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.baseball-reference.com/bullpen/Heinie_Zimmerman</a>

Best Baseball Player Depicted in T206 Not in the Hall of Fame
 

Posted By: <b>ali_lapoint</b><p>my vote goes to Jesse Tannehill. 20-6 in 1902 with a 1.95 era. won 20 games 6 times. finished with a 197-116 record and lifetime 2.79 era.

Best Baseball Player Depicted in T206 Not in the Hall of Fame
 

Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>I learn something new every day.

Best Baseball Player Depicted in T206 Not in the Hall of Fame
 

Posted By: <b>Frank Wakefield</b><p>Reulbach as the pitcher, and<br /><br />Donlin as the player.<br /><br /><br />But I'd agree that Tannehill is a strong contender. Zimmerman had good skills, but there's a cloud over his activities. With Chase it wasn't merely a cloud, but a full blown hurricane, great skills, crooked as can be. Imagine what Chase would do today on eBay if he were a retired player... he'd be selling Roger Clemens' medicine bottles on eBay.<br /><br />Both Reulbach and Donlin could have had longer, fuller careers, but for intervening matters. They could have piled up more impressive numbers. I think Reulbach is better HOF material than some of what is already in there.<br /><br />

Best Baseball Player Depicted in T206 Not in the Hall of Fame
 

Posted By: <b>David R</b><p>Wasn't Hal Chase the lead in the Titanic movie? I don't have the photoshop skills but I swear that Leonardo Dicaprio in Titanic is really the ghost of Hal Chase. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

Best Baseball Player Depicted in T206 Not in the Hall of Fame
 

Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Based on HOF voting totals, definitely Hal Chase. In the inaugural vote he received more votes than Mordecai Brown, Sam Crawford, John McGraw, Hughie Jennings, Mike Donlin, and Rube Marquard. In the next year's vote his total went up and he still received more votes than many HOFers. By the next year he was off the ballot due to revelations about his misconduct in baseball.

Best Baseball Player Depicted in T206 Not in the Hall of Fame
 

Posted By: <b>Craig W</b><p>Hooks Wiltse<br /><br />W-L: 139-90<br />ERA: 2.47<br />K's: 965

Best Baseball Player Depicted in T206 Not in the Hall of Fame
 

Posted By: <b>John S</b><p>My votes are for Phillippe and Leever.<br /><br />

Best Baseball Player Depicted in T206 Not in the Hall of Fame
 

Posted By: <b>Shawn Chambers</b><p>With regards to pitching, I agree with Reulbach, Tannehill, and Phillipe, but I can always seem to think of deserving pitchers in any era more often than the sticksmiths.<br /><br />For position players, I'm still on the Hal Chase bandwagon. It is hard to ignore account after account of his on-field heroics from star players of the day, the press, and national publications. I just can't imagine the "Greatest First Baseman of All Time" slogan being bandied about lightly by the likes of Ruth, W. Johnson, as well as many less famous, but no-less important contemporaries. With his often discussed "banishment" which really doesn't even seem to be true, he should at least be on the ballot.<br /><br /><br />Edited for more David Rudd solidarity.

Best Baseball Player Depicted in T206 Not in the Hall of Fame
 

Posted By: <b>Mark L</b><p>Larry Doyle and Deacon Phillippe were crucial pieces of two all-time great teams. I'd vote for them.

Best Baseball Player Depicted in T206 Not in the Hall of Fame
 

Posted By: <b>Marty Ogelvie</b><p><P>Love those card pics Ted, you da man!</P><P>My vote was for Chase, not because I think he deserves to be in the HOF.&nbsp; He certainly does NOT but&nbsp; I do think he was the Best player from the T206 set NOT alreday in the HOF.&nbsp; If not for his questionable ethics, he would certainly have been in by now. I find it enlightning that he consistantly led the league in errors at 1st base yet was he still considered by most all of his peers as the best fielding first baseman of his era!</P><P>There are players not in the HOF that deserve to be in the HOF from the T206 set, Chase is not one, although&nbsp;I think he was the best not already in.&nbsp; It's a shame that many of these deserving players will likely never get enshrined, the voters/writers today simply do NOT put the time in needed to research these players..</P><br><br>martyOgelvie<br /><a href="http://www.nyyankeecards.com">New York Yankee cards</a>

Best Baseball Player Depicted in T206 Not in the Hall of Fame
 

Posted By: <b>paulstratton</b><p>Cicotte and Chase.

Best Baseball Player Depicted in T206 Not in the Hall of Fame
 

Posted By: <b>ali_lapoint</b><p>i don't think sam leever has a card in the t206 set.

Best Baseball Player Depicted in T206 Not in the Hall of Fame
 

Posted By: <b>Kenny Cole</b><p>He may have been the most talented of the non-HOFers in the T206 set, but he was also the biggest crook. I find it difficult to square the concept of the "best" with a player who routinely threw games. Baseball, like all sports, is all about winning. If you don't help your team win, and Chase pretty clearly did not (at least not when it counted), then I'm not sure how anyone can realistically call him the best.<br /><br />For my money, its Dahlen, Magee, Cravath and Doyle, in that order for position players. Philippe, Reulbach, Mullin and Tannehill for pitchers<br /><br />

Best Baseball Player Depicted in T206 Not in the Hall of Fame
 

Posted By: <b>barry arnold</b><p>cicotte and chase<br /><br />Best,<br /><br />barry

Best Baseball Player Depicted in T206 Not in the Hall of Fame
 

Posted By: <b>Mark Lutz</b><p>How can they be best if they were not ethical?

Best Baseball Player Depicted in T206 Not in the Hall of Fame
 

Posted By: <b>Lance</b><p>The same way Mike Tyson was the best...without ethics being involved. The Black Sox made a grave mistake and paid dearly for it. So has Pete Rose, the all-time hit leader, in case you forgot. Ty Cobb was a racist, yet nobody ever has denighed his absolute greatness or place in the hall. These are all very different stories, gambling, fixing games, and hatred, but which is the worst of the three? The Black Sox and Rose belong in the Hall of Fame, based on what they accomplished in their careers on the diamond, not off. That part only happened when America started expecting TV and "Role Models" to raise their children. If ethics were involved in the original voting, how many play boys and drunks would now be diqualified? I can think of 2 real easy. It is not the Hall of ethics, obviously.

Best Baseball Player Depicted in T206 Not in the Hall of Fame
 

Posted By: <b>Frank Wakefield</b><p>"Best" is not someone who might throw a game for money,<br />notwithstanding how well he may hit and field.<br /><br />Pete belongs in the Hall, anytime he buys a ticket, 363 days a<br />year. If one were to study the origins of the development of the<br />National League, the agreement between the 2 leagues, the effect <br />gambling had on the early game, the clear rules prohibiting it <br />that are conveyed to the players, the signs on the clubhouse <br />doors, the clear HOF requirements and disqualifications that <br />players know, and then honestly and without emotion looked at what <br />Pete did... then one cannot rationally envision Pete ever being <br />inducted into the Hall, but merely admitted whenever he buys a <br />ticket.<br /><br /><br />I think Chase may well be the best fielding first baseman ever; <br />and at least among the best. That is based upon what I've read <br />that contemporaries said about first basemen, from Beckley through <br />Gehrig. But the possibility of someone throwing a game is such a <br />significant, serious negative, that it offsets great fielding and <br />good hitting.<br /><br /><br /><br />2 DR solidarity edits.

Best Baseball Player Depicted in T206 Not in the Hall of Fame
 

Posted By: <b>Jason L</b><p>on this, we completely agree.<br />Well stated!

Best Baseball Player Depicted in T206 Not in the Hall of Fame
 

Posted By: <b>paulstratton</b><p>Puckett and Carter then.

Best Baseball Player Depicted in T206 Not in the Hall of Fame
 

Posted By: <b>MVSNYC</b><p>Lance- i agree, especially about the whole Tyson analogy...you had me until this comment, however...<br /><br />"The Black Sox and Rose belong in the Hall of Fame, based on what they accomplished in their careers on the diamond, not off."<br /><br />i am a HUGE Black Sox fan, and do wish that Shoeless Joe would be enshrined, BUT let's not forget that the Black Sox issues WERE on the field.<br /><br />

Best Baseball Player Depicted in T206 Not in the Hall of Fame
 

Posted By: <b>Lance</b><p>Michael,<br />I realized my error after I hit "Post". I have quietly waited for my lashes...<br /><br />Frank,<br />Very well stated, but would you agree "Best" would not be the man who would shoot another man, based on color, for stepping on his property? Are we looking for the "Best Players" or the "Best Human Beings" to represent the HOF? The Black Sox will never get in. Based on their offense, it's fair. Rose? Belongs in the Hall! His offense is definately the lesser of the 2 evils of the 2 greatest hitters ever to play the game.

Best Baseball Player Depicted in T206 Not in the Hall of Fame
 

Posted By: <b>Darren</b><p>Leever is not represented in T206.

Best Baseball Player Depicted in T206 Not in the Hall of Fame
 

Posted By: <b>MVSNYC</b><p>Lance- no biggie, just had to call you out on that... <img src="/images/wink.gif" height=14 width=14>

Best Baseball Player Depicted in T206 Not in the Hall of Fame
 

Posted By: <b>Tim Sanders</b><p>Deacon Phillippe<br />And<br />"Noisy" Johnny Kling - Best Catcher of his day!!!!

Best Baseball Player Depicted in T206 Not in the Hall of Fame
 

Posted By: <b>Jason L</b><p>Ha ha Ha!!!<br />very good.<br /><br />

Best Baseball Player Depicted in T206 Not in the Hall of Fame
 

Posted By: <b>barry arnold</b><p>Hi Mark,<br />thanks for the question.<br />Dr. Darren's initial post asks for the best baseball player... not in the Hall of Fame. My picks were based solely on the criterion of talent,estimated largely via my analysis of their baseball statistics, since<br />I had the freedom to choose what I considered critical criteria. Also using<br />Dr. Darren's parameters, I chose those 'Not in the Hall of Fame' and 'those on<br />206s'. I believe,given my criterion, that they are the most talented. I am not saying they should be in the Hall of Fame. I would need to <br />incubate this a bit before I would make a decision since the criteria are no longer my own but the criteria delineated by the Hall of Fame itself.<br /><br />best,<br />Barry<br />

Best Baseball Player Depicted in T206 Not in the Hall of Fame
 

Posted By: <b>Misunderestimated</b><p>Without wading into the ethical problems presented by some of the candidates the statistics pretty much lead me to the following list <br />(more or less in this order) :<br />Position players:<br />Dahlen (SS)<br />Jimmy Sheckard <br />Sherry Magee<br />Larry Doyle <br />Gavvy Cravath <br />Mike Donlin & Chief Meyers (Very good players for not long enough)<br />Harry Davis <br /><br />Pitchers<br />Cicotte<br />E Reulbach<br />Sam leever<br />D. Phillipe<br />O. Overall<br />Jack Quinn<br />Jack Pfiester (the Giant Killer)<br /> <br />Hal Chase:<br /><br />Hal Chase's stats are not really even that good -- including his fielding numbers<br /> His omnipresence in the T-cards was because he was the marquee player at the time for the NY AL team. . . Also he is the last guy you would ever want on your team. Forget that he threw games -- He <u>convinced</u> other players to throw games!

Best Baseball Player Depicted in T206 Not in the Hall of Fame
 

Posted By: <b>sean</b><p>Now im the first to admit that hal chase doesnt deserve to be in the hall due to his throwing games. However, his lower fielding percentage (so Ive read) has a lot to do with actually being a good first baseman. A lot of players from the pre 1920 era have lower fielding percentages due to trying for impossible plays that a lot of other players wouldn't of even gotten close to. Player averages during the deadball era are deceiving as smaller gloves and wirey (spell check?) players (Johnny Evers, Hal Chase, Frank Baker, Solly Hofman, etc.) made for more errors that probably shouldn't have been counted as errors. Another factor in determining who should be in the hall is the people who saw them play that give them recognition i.e. Babe Ruth naming hal chase the best first player he ever saw or nearly everyone (including Ty Cobb, Mordecai Brown, Honus Wagner, etc.) from the deadball era picking Johnny Kling as the best catcher they ever saw.<br />My picks would be:<br />1. Johnny Kling<br />2. Ed Reulbach<br />3. Deacon Phillipe<br />4. Mike Donlin

Best Baseball Player Depicted in T206 Not in the Hall of Fame
 

Posted By: <b>Misunderestimated</b><p>I guess the big thing -- I want to stress about "Prince Hal" was that even if it appeared that he <u>could</u> play first base as well as any of his contemporaries you were more likely to lose with him on your team because of what he did. True, all those players saw him at some time or another field the position as well as anyone, but he presence on a team was cancerous. The object of baseball is ultimately rather simple and no different than any other team sport: win. If you had Chase you were less likely to win. Chase's perfidy was generally unknown until near the end of his career when he played for Christy Matthewson, who managed the Reds. Matty knew just how dangerous Chase was and he knew when things were fishy. "In Eight Men Out," Eliot Asinoff explained that the terminally ill Matty was one of the first people to suspect that 1919 series was compromised and recorded each play that suggested a lack of effort by the ChiSox from the press area where he watched the games with legendary journalist Hugh Fullerton.<br /><br />Chase was ultimately suspended in the wake of the Black Sox scandal, not for throwing games but for fixing them. Chase's story has made him one of the most popular subjects for biography of his era and a great deal is now known about exactly what he did. These biographies and the statistics reveal that while he could play first base as well as anyone, he rarely did. Unlike Eddie Cicotte, Chick Gandil, Heinie Zimmerman, or anyone who threw a game or even the World Series, Chase essentially threw a career. His dishonesty and his "angling" were, according the biographies I have seen, an integral part of his play. He was never really good, even in pure terms of play either statistically or otherwise. The anecdotal evidence -- the stories of his contemporaries -- suggests that, at most, he had great potential. <br /><br />Johnny Kling provides a great contrast. As a catcher a lot of what he did eluded the box score (working with the Pitchers etc) and his individual hitting statistics are hardly remarkable. He was, however, the starting catcher for a team that made 4 straight post seasons and won regular season games at a incredible pace, the 1906-10 Cubs. The Cubs dynasty ended just before Kling left and as we all know they haven't won a World Series since Kling was their regular catcher.