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Help! - Best players for 1958-1980 baseball card display
It will take me a very long time, but I've decided to turn my "Top 50" baseball card display into a "Top 100." The goal here is to represent the Top 100 players who had player cards issued between 1933 and 1980.
While the "First 50" (1933-1957) display is far from done, the player selections are at least final. However, I am a little stuck making up my mind on which players to represent on the 1958-1980 display. Below are the 20 most marginal players under consideration, from which I need to dump 7. Please vote for anywhere from 1-7 guys you think belong in the bottom 7. Other than giving myself one save/veto in the case of sentimental value, I will tally your votes and use them to build my display. INFIELDERS Dick Allen Steve Garvey Ron Santo CATCHERS Thurman Munson Gary Carter PITCHERS JR Richard Don Sutton Phil Niekro Rich Gossage Luis Tiant Bruce Sutter OUTFIELDERS George Foster Minnie Minoso Jim Rice Dave Parker Dale Murphy Fred Lynn Richie Ashburn Andre Dawson Monte Irvin |
You gotta drop Fred Lynn. A couple of nice years (including his rookie campaign) were the lonely candles atop his middling career cake.
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I remember how excited I was when Lynn came to the Angels, but he never did come close to matching his Boston years. So okay, that's a minus one on Lynn.
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These are the guys I drop:
Fred Lynn JR Richard Luis Tiant George Foster Dave Parker Dale Murphy |
Drop
Lynn Foster Allen Richard Sutter I strongly disagree with dropping murphy or Tiant. |
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Playing wiffle ball back in the day, I developed a pitch called 'the Louie' after Tiant. Loved him when he came to the Yanks. I'd turn my back to the batter during the wind-up and completely change where I would let go of the pitch to mess up his timing. Good times!! |
Sutter is in the Hall. IMO, I don't understand the reason behind not having him represented. Murphy was very pedestrian except for 4 or 5 years ( of an 18 or 19 year career ), and Tiant was never thought of as one of the best in the game. Allen was one of the most feared sluggers back in the day and one of the top players in the game over a 10 year stretch. He's probably the most deserving for the Hall of players not in it. If you have to lose 7 players off the list, it's going to spur debate!
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Richard and Tiant, as they are the only pitchers not in the HOF or to win a Cy Young on the list.
The hitters are a little tougher. I'd knock off Ashburn and Minoso. Neither was ever an MVP, and Ashburn was a debatable HOF pick. Then Rice, Foster, and Parker, all MVP's at one time, but also with some years where they didn't do much. so.... Richard Tiant Ashburn Minoso Rice Foster Parker |
That's good logic. I have always had a soft spot for JR Richard based on his career ending just as he was heading toward his best year(s?). I also tend to remember him as better than he was since he had a stretch where I believe he was 15-0 against my team with an ERA around 1.00 and about 12Ks per game.
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So, who is your top 50 from 33-57?
And who is your 43 that are in from 58 to 80? |
Bottom 7
INFIELDERS Dick Allen Ron Santo PITCHERS Don Sutton Luis Tiant OUTFIELDERS George Foster Minnie Minoso Fred Lynn |
Jason, if you're a fan of those years, or any era, why ask us? Look friend, choose the guys that move you. Impress you. Cards whose image is, in your mind, a work of art that stimulates your senses. You're gonna get 50 different answers from fifty people on this one. Unless you wanna take a consensus, you should pick who you want and the beauty that moves YOU in particular cards of dos guys that are "your" guys.
It's all good, bro. As an example, for me it would be Mel Stottlemyre, Gary Peters, and Dean Chance, among others. For certain years, they were superb. Would they fit anyone else's? Probably not. I'd also go with Sandy Koufax, and many others would include him, but so what? But for those aforementioned three pitchers, it's all about what I want? For your choices, it's all about who you want! Collect who you love, and the contentment will follow. Gotta go to work!:D Take care, Jason. ----Brian Powell |
I'd dump:
JR Richard Don Sutton George Foster Minnie Minoso Dale Murphy Fred Lynn Monte Irvin |
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Any player who is a consensus Top 100 Player in MLB history (about 75 of these guys) is an automatic "in." From there I end up with about 30 open slots, many of which go to guys I just want in for my own reasons (as Brian suggested). And what's left, more or less, are about 17 guys to fill 10 slots. FIRST 50 33G Ruth 33G Frisch 33G Hartnett 33G O'Doul - Perhaps not a Top 100 career, but I'm biased toward really old cards I already have. 33G H. Wilson - Ditto. 34G Gehrig 34G Foxx 34G Grove 34G Greenberg 34G Dean 33D Simmons 33D Klein - I know Klein benefitted greatly from ballpark and era. Still, I feel like Klein and Simmons go together, enough so that I might even shell out for the DeLongs. 36DS Hornsby 36DS Ott 36DS Hubbell 36DS Waner 36DS Terry 36DS Traynor 36DS Appling 36G Cochrane - With this and the next selection, part of my goal is to feature not only 100 great players but also a variety of different sets. 38G Medwick 39PB DiMaggio 40PB Dickey 40PB Cronin 41PB Gehringer 41PB Vaughan - A bit like Maris, one season really does a lot for this guy in my book 49B Boudreau 51B Campanella - Still puzzled ESPN didn't put him in their Top 125! 51B Irvin 52B Ashburn - This card is just a beauty...may put Richie over the top! Plus makes a nice pair with fellow Whiz Kid below. 52B Roberts 52T Snider 53T Paige 53T Feller 53T Mathews 53T Mize 53T Kiner 53B Musial 53B Minoso - I grew up in LA but live in Chicago now. People here talk about this guy like a poor man's Clemente. I should learn more...I mainly knew him from his '77 Topps Record Breaker card. 54T J. Robinson 54B Mantle 57T Mays 57T T. Williams 57T F. Robinson 57T Clemente 57T Spahn 57T Banks 57T Berra 57T Kaline 57T Ford 57T Doby - Integrating the American League earns this guy a ton of points with me. Best guys I left out: Goose Goslin, Lefty Gomez, Early Wynn, Phil Rizzuto, Gil Hodges, Pee Wee Reese? SECOND 50 61N Aaron - Of all the Aarons!! Really? The problem is my Topps and Bowman Aarons are all tied up in my framed Aaron display. 63T Koufax 64T Gibson 64T B. Robinson 64T Yastrzemski 64T McCovey 64T Marichal 64T Killebrew 64T Stargell 64T Aparicio 64T B. Williams 64T Drysdale 64T Maris - I still think of him as holding the HR record 64J Oh - Such a cool card. No idea really what his MLB stats would have been. 65T Wilhelm 65T Santo - Just as his name translates, people here in Chicago see this guy as a saint. 65T Allen 65T Tiant 66T Morgan 67T Jenkins 67T Perry 68T Sutton 69T Bench 69T Seaver 69T Carlton 69T Rose 69T Ryan 69T Carew 69T Jackson 69T Palmer 69T Brock 69T Niekro 70T Fingers 71T Blyleven 71T Garvey - When I was growing up in LA, this guy was the card everyone wanted to get in a pack. 72T Foster 72T Munson 73T Fisk 74T Schmidt 74T Winfield 74T Gossage 74T Richard 75T Brett 76T Eckersley 76T Carter 76T Lynn 76T Parker 77T Yount 77T Sutter 78T Murray 78T Dawson 78T Rice 79T Smith 79T Molitor 80T Henderson 80T Murphy Best guys I left out: Tony Perez, Bobby Grich, Dave Kingman, Alan Trammell? |
Might be speaking soon, but good to see The Garv getting some love from the vintage crowd. Usually he gets the snub when HOF or all time greats topics come about.
It's hard to remove any of the better players from lists like these because you feel like they all deserve to be there at some level. Good luck with the project. |
I'm rather biased, but would say for sure DON'T take off Mr. Ron Santo. :)
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INFIELDERS
Dick Allen Steve Garvey CATCHERS Thurman Munson PITCHERS JR Richard OUTFIELDERS George Foster Dave Parker Dale Murphy |
Irvin, Minoso, Oliva
Hi there - few thoughts:
1) Irvin only played until 1955/56, so doesn't fit the '58-80 time. He was an early HOFer, in spite of only 1-2 great MLB years, especially '51 when he finished #3 in MVP voting. That said he's a favorite of mine, have his whole run from Topps + Bowman, and his 53B and 55T are particularly awesome 2) Minoso. Gotta keep him. He will be in the HOF shortly, esp. with his passing, and he is as you say a poor man's Clemente. So, even just for the spirit and his ambassadorship of the game through his retirement, I'd keep him. He has tons of awesome cards to choose from (53B, 54 Red Heart, 53T, 59T, among many others) 3) Tony Oliva . I hope he's on your top 50? This guy is always my favorite pick for best non-HOFer, and frankly, one of the top players in 64-71 (before injuries). 3-time batting champ, 5-time hits leader, he was a sure-fire HOFer until injuries in his later career. Also, he has some of the coolest looking cards, especially 65, 66, 67 topps I'm a huge fan of Cuban players too, which is why both Minoso and Oliva are so high in my personal list - I think they double-integrated to some degree (especially Minoso, who broke in in 1949 with CLE before several teams had integrated, and at a time when he also spoke only Spanish) |
Agreed on Irvin. In his case, he'd be on the "First 50" display that runs from 1933-1957. His MLB numbers aren't HOF-calibre, but I always keep in mind he didn't make his debut till he was 30, largely for reasons due to anything but lack of ability. Irvin has some beautiful cards...I really like his 53 Bowman Color and his 54 Dan Dee. However, I'm now thinking I may represent him with his 51 Topps Red Back. This gives me a chance to include the very first Topps issue in my display.
Minoso has a gorgeous 53 Bowman Color card as well, and that could well sway me. For the row in the display where he'd go, it comes down to Minoso vs Ashburn. I like Ashburn's 52 Bowman next to my newfound 52 Bowman Robin Roberts, so this could almost be a coin flip. Yes, I agree Oliva was really good and could have been really, really good. I've also heard he's a terrific guy from people who've met him. I think he does the Spanish broadcasting for the Twins these days. He doesn't quite make my list at the moment, even with the three batting titles. Another guy I feel guilty omitting is Bill Madlock, with FOUR titles! |
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You're right - it's so tough. Madlock is also close. 51 Red Back for Monte Irvin is a great choice. If you do go with Minnie, I'd vote the 53 Bowman - but honestly you can't go wrong with any Good luck! |
The final standings are in, with the number of kills next to each player listed. The red guys are the unlucky seven who will barely miss out on Man Cave Immortality.
I feel good about the results and DEFINITELY don't feel like any undeserving players will end up in the display. I think you all helped reduce the bias I tend to assign to the superstars of the late-1970s and early 1980s. As a kid reading the backs of baseball cards, George Foster and his .320/52 season stood very, very tall, and Dave Parker's 1979 All-Star Game performance convinced me he was probably the best player ever! I will say, other than with Munson, that this forum's voters tended to value longevity and consistency above guys who lit the world on fire for just a few seasons. And to echo one of the voters, it made me happy to see Garvey do well here. The only thing I feel badly about, and it has nothing to do with the votes here, is that I would have liked to keep 53 Bowman Color Minoso (3 kills) over 1979 Topps Murphy (3 kills). However, there is some organization by year/era that would fall apart if I tried to stuff in one more 1950s card whereas I had an open spot in my 1976-1980 row. While I love the 53B Minoso card, I suppose a way I could still sneak Minnie in would be to use his 77T RB card instead. Will have to think about that one. INFIELDERS 3 Dick Allen 1 Steve Garvey 1 Ron Santo CATCHERS 1 Thurman Munson 0 Gary Carter PITCHERS 5 JR Richard 2 Don Sutton 0 Phil Niekro 0 Rich Gossage 3 Luis Tiant 1 Bruce Sutter OUTFIELDERS 6 George Foster 3 Minnie Minoso 1 Jim Rice 3 Dave Parker 3 Dale Murphy 5 Fred Lynn 1 Richie Ashburn 0 Andre Dawson 1 Monte Irvin |
So glad you're having a lot of fun, Jason.
There's guys you left off in the end that I would have had to have included. But then, I began in 1961, so it's only natural Minnie Minoso and Richie Ashburn would have been spared, and guys like Dave Parker and Fred Lynn would have drawn a big blank from me. Same with Don Sutton. Also, I favor a guy for any number of reasons, but longevity is almost always not one of them, which means I will favor the guy who was on fire for a few seasons---like Gary Peters, Dean Chance, Mel Stottlemyre, Thurman Munson, etc. Which is neither here nor there, because this is all about your tastes and what moves you.:D ----Brian Powell |
Not really understanding the Dave Parker snub. He was a "show stopper" when he first came up in the 70's. I'll admit that he faded after 8 or 9 years, but when he first came up, a person might go to a game to see Parker. He was a physical specimen. You didn't want to be on line getting food or drinks if he was up.
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This is a really cool project, Jason. You've got your no doubt about it guys and then the fellows on the margins which is where half of the fun and angst lies.. As a suggestion, why not go ahead and get all of the guys, your JR Richards and Fred Lynns, and keep them in an Honorable Mention Wing in your Mancave Museum? I am doing a project without any subjectivity (aside from which actual manufacturer to get) - the rookie cards of every MVP winner from 1950 on, and every Cy Young winner. It's been a lot of of fun collecting the obvious guys like Maddux, Koufax, etc but it's been really cool learning more about the less obvious guys like Bob Turley, Mike McCormick, etc. These pieces of cardboard are still a tremendous gateway back through history. |
Wow, that's not a cheap bunch of guys to collect! How far along are you?
The closest to subjective might be the 1955 NL MVP race. Campy barely beat the Duke, but I recall there was a ballot that presumably by accident listed Campy twice and Snider not at all. Under the quite plausible assumption that the voter meant Snider one of the times but just goofed, Snider would have won. |
Cy Young and MVP Rooks
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MVP controversy aside, imagine rooting for a team like the 1955 Dodgers.. How many HOFers on that squad? Love your collection of '56 Topps Dodgers you posted recently. As far as my MVP/Cy Young rookie project, it actually had morphed from a couple of other sub-collections I had going - the classic post-war HOF rookies set and then just a rookie card collection I had of future HOFers/perennial All-Stars and/or players I loved growing up (like Garvey and Doug Drabek). From there it was fairly cheap to fill in guys like Willie Hernandez, Jeff Burroughs, Steve Stone, Mike Flanagan, etc in high grade. The most frustrating part has been the modern world...with all of the "pre-rookies" and the autograph versions, chromium stock variations, refractors, etc, etc., it can all be a bit overwhelming. I'd still like to know what David Price's true rookie card is....and I almost had a nervous breakdown figuring out what Justin Verlander rookie to get (I settled on the 2005 Topps Autograph). It's just further reinforced how much more enjoyable it is to collect vintage. To answer your question, for the Cy Young set I am down to Don Newcombe - 1950 Bowman (anyone selling???)...For MVP Post-1950, Mr Newcombe is on that list as well...along with the 1952 Topps Dick Groat, 1985 Donruss Terry Pendelton (easy to find but looking for a perfect one), and a 1999 Bowman Chrome Josh Hamilton. Getting close! |
Incredible! I love the idea that you could soon have all these guys...Mantle RC, Mays RC, Clemente RC...but still need Terry Pendleton to complete your collection.
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I had pretty much lost all interest in current baseball by about the end of 1972. The burgeoning adult card collecting hobby was taking off, and I was consumed with baseball history from the 1930s through the 1960s, and collecting cards from those eras. I did enjoy some current baseball thereafter, but it was only sporadic. I am sure you know what you're talking about regarding Mr. Parker. My time was getting limited back then, and I guess I simply directed it to what I found interesting----Ted Williams' autobiography, MY TURN AT BAT, the book, THE BOYS OF SUMMER, a book on the 1927 New York Yankees, Robert Creamer's biog of Babe Ruth, and so on. With Fred Lynn, he had a terrific rookie year, and the Red Sox had a super year, making the Big Red Machine grind out seven long games to beat the Sox, including perhaps the greatest game EVER played, when Fisk won it with his tremendous home run! After his rookie year, Freddie just never seemed to improve. We all probably have teams, eras, and specific players we really enjoy. As I said, I have liked a lot of guys through the ages whose peak was perhaps all too short, but still had a few seasons, or maybe even just one, that caught a lot of fans attention, and my attention and admiration. Ed Walsh in 1908. Joe Wood in 1912. Rube Marquard the year he won 19 straight. Hack Wilson in 1930. Dean Chance in 1964. Minnie Minoso in his first stretch with the White Sox. Billy Pierce with the Giants in '62; did you ever study what he achieved when he pitched at Candlestick Park---he was close to unbeatable. Lefty Grove is fascinating. Until he had to develop a curve after he lost his fastball, 'ol Robert Moses just reared back and threw it in as hard as he could---just challenging the hitters to try to hit him. The banner years of Joe Jackson with Cleveland---Wowwwwwwwwwwwww. Then there's someone like Harmon Killebrew. It was always a treat to pull The Killer. I love Roger Maris. I began collecting in 1961............. . Ernie Banks, Don Drysdale, Sandy Koufax, and of course, Mickey Mantle. Our favorites are all over the place. I really admire the 1956s---Herb Score, Don Newcombe, and the aforementioned Minnie Minoso. The best card in the set is Mickey Mantle, and I dearly wish I still had that one. Just rambling, my friend. You could probably talk about Dave Parker for 15 minutes and more, just telling stories of games you saw on TV and favorite Parkers you pulled--where you were, how you felt about it, and which poses were his best to you. It's a colder, increasingly tougher world out there. Baseball cards don't soothe the deepest issues of life and death, but enjoying our old baseball cards, and even some of the modern post career cards of the players we love, do help bring a little sunshine and serenity amidst all the chaos. It's all good, bros. Let's keep having fun. We need it. Cheers. Moreover, L'Chaim. ---Brian Powell |
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[QUOTE=jason.1969;1476768]Incredible! I love the idea that you could soon have all these guys...Mantle RC, Mays RC, Clemente RC...but still need Terry Pendleton to complete your collection.[/QUO
Or his identical twin Jeff |
[QUOTE=David W;1476835]
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The Grail!!
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