Some more on mr. Mays
 

http://www.sportsonearth.com/article...gue-mlb-awards

Pretty outstanding info in this article and it leaves you scratching your head a bit.

Dustin,

Honestly, my head is not itching at all. The writer attributes value totally based upon statistics and metrics that were unheard of in the 50s and 50s. As the years wore on in Willie's great career, the shadow kept looming larger and larger---no matter what he achieved, the Giants rarely appeared in the World Series. When they finally made it by beating the Dodgers in the 1962 play-off, how did Mr. Mays do in the World Series? As close of a series as it was, the Giants made the Yankees sweat bullets not because of Willie.

The men who won those MVP awards deserved them, and Willie definitely deserved his in 1954. Yeah, Duke should have won it in '55. Here we go again.

I'm just glad I never stood in line to pay to get Say Hey's autograph. Better stop there.

---Brian Powell

Hey Brian , I also noticed that the writer used stats that were not used back then. But I still agree about a lot of what he said especially 1964. They did seem to base the MVP award more on how your team did for the year. Which I don't agree with. 1962 Mays did not have a great World Series but he sure did help his team get to the show.

Ps
I don't know about you but if I signed a million autographs in uncomfortable condition talking to all sorts of people sooner or latter I'm going to be a jerk.

I would hope Mays inquired about the conditions his signings would take place, the number of signatures or length of time to sign, and his compensation.

Those would be terms he agreed to at the time.

Some former players have websites that items can be mailed to, and for a fee the items will be signed. Johnny Bench is one who does this. He's very much aware of the resale market, and his signature has value. This is an easy way to separate a collector from one who just wants to make a buck and flip memorabilia .

Scenario's like this are a win / win to me.

and then there are the guys like Feller and Doerr (which just signed a 51T Blue Back TTM for me right around his 99th birthday) who seemed to really enjoy their fan interactions and apparently didn't care about resale value.

Dustin,

In 1964 Ken Boyer had what amounted to his career year, helping the Cards make it to the Series. He had a lot of help with Lou Brock and Bob Gibson; but apparently to the sportswriters, Ken's performance stood out the most. Same scenario with Dick Groat in 1960. I'm sure the same was true for Orlando Cepeda in 1967, Don Newcombe in 1956, and certainly Henry Aaron in 1957. Obviously, these gents did not get their team into the World Series single-handedly. However, and this is where pure stat metrics fall short to a degree, the sportswriters who covered baseball in those given years, game by game, and who were given the right to cast their ballots for the MVP awards, had a really good handle on who was indespenseible to their team, and came through in clutch situations most often.

Being an Ernie Banks fan, I was happy he won those two years. The Cubs would have been toast without him. Sure, they had some decent players, but Ernie drove in so many runs and kept the Cubs a serious threat to any team that looked on them as a doormat. Their biggest weakness in those years was weak pitching, among other things.

Please, do not think I feel Willie was not an all-time great. He most assuredly was. The feeling in my neighborhood (Chicago suburbs) was that Willie Mays was the number one player in the NL. That's how I felt, too. You are sure right about Willie helping the Giants get to the Series in '62; he had a terrific season. Again, we have Maury Wills having his career-defining year, as well as Don Drysdale and Tommy Davis, for that matter. Sandy Koufax's late season finger problem hurt them badly. Obviously, he turned that around in '63.

As far as his autograph signing manners, I guess I have heard far too many horror stories going back to the late 1980s for me to cut him any slack. It was bad enough that I sold most of my Willie Mays cards. I should of held on to them, as I would have made some decent money, but I made top dollar for the time, and that was fine by me. True, there are lousy people who are not nice about getting their autograph from an athlete. For quite some time now, show promoters and their minions have carefully culled crazies from the line to Mr. Mays. Yet time after time, Willie kept being true to himself, and embarrassed everybody by his rude behavior. Who was he going to listen to if someone got in his face about it? He thought he was above everybody, and entitled to act any way he wanted because he was Willie Mays. Again, the little boy within a collector's heart has been murdered by Mays so often it would fill, proverbially, the largest graveyard.

Years ago someone wrote some good advice. If you're a Mays fan, collect all you want, but don't risk going to a show to meet him and get his autograph.

Probably too much said. Sorry.

Just part of the hot stove league of discussion.:)

Have a great week, bro. Seriously. Keep enjoying the hobby.

--Brian Powell

Thanks Brian ! It's never to much lol. I personally have never met Willie Mays.
I also heard about him being rude and unreasonable at times. Also if being rude stops you from winning MVPs I can't explain Barry Bonds. I know when speaking on coulda woulda shouldas it's all a big what if.that goes for everything .

All I'm saying is I agree that Mays should have won more MVPs one or two maybe not 6 lol. As the article helps point the NL was filled with amazing talent in that era.


Side note: I've heard the same thing about Chipper jones. As far as being a jerk in person. My son loves chipper for some odd reason. ( he's five) so I want to take him to a signing when he's in town. I have feared him being a jerk when my son gets to see him. I'll sure to let you guys know if or when it happens.

Because, as a young kid at an early 80s card show, I witnessed this surly prick repeatedly disrespect admirers and fans, I'll never own one of his cards ( sighh.. except his 51B at part of my set)

Who cares. He doesn't have an obligation to anyone, nor does any player. I'd imagine if you can't walk a street anywhere without people bothering you, you'd become pretty surly also.
I have met him before. Nothing spectacular, and also nothing disheartening. He was just signing as a matter of business.

I cared.
Respect and integrity mean a lot to me.

I agree with this . Anyone could be a jerk it doesn't mean your always a jerk.i met Juan marichal guess what didn't say a peep to me no matter what I said or asked. I also heard that he was a jerk to a few other people at this particular signing. I don't think this means he always a jerk.

A customer of mine got to meet Willie at his house 2-3 years ago. I forget the details, but a business associate of his knew Willie.

Before they went to the house however, my customer was cautioned by the person taking him there not to mention or ask for any autographs, that if he did Willie would get upset.

He said it was a great conversation time, they talked baseball and other things for several hours and Willie was very gracious and friendly. He got to see and hold some of Willie's memorabilia and I think take pictures as well.

So, clearly something about autograph's upsets Willie Mays.

I intensely disagree. He most assuredly does have an obligation to his fans. I understand the instance when you're being mobbed by well-wishers and you're exhausted after a game--you just want to get out of there.

However, when an athlete does a show, they are not being mobbed. Yeah, it is a business, but it IS different. These people standing in line paid that jerk's salary, and they like him, and have cheered for him for almost as long as they've lived. Then Willie turns around and acts like an asshole, rude to the hilt, ignoring people's kindness and compliments and hero-worship----and you have the temerity to suggest he does not owe those people a smile, a "hi", a "thanks for remembering me"? Those people have paid handsomely for that autograph and the privilege to meet Willie Mays. They most certainly were not just paying for that signature. It's the complete package of an autograph and a very brief, positive interaction with Willie. Then he goes and acts like as a jerk to these people and their children, taking the statue they've built in their minds of him, and sledgehammering it to smithereens.

I say, give Willie Mays a big swift kick in the ass, and keep on kicking him until he gets back on his plane. I know. The language is strong. The imagery is something you probably won't forget.

Neither will the people and their children whom Willie "murdered" at all those autograph sessions. He didn't do it to everybody, just plenty enough to earn a well-deserved rancid reputation, and put enough "dead little boys within" to overflow the largest graveyard in America.

---Brian Powell

Brian I hope you are not a Mat Harvey fan try to explain that one to me?

I am a ridiculously huuuuuge fan, but since forever I've heard that Willie Mays is the absolute rudest human being on the planet to his fans. For this reason, I have never taken the opportunity to meet him at a show that he was appearing at (uh oh, misuse of a preposition?). This way, the player, the legend will forever stay beautifully intact in my mind, uncorrupted by the butchery of reality.

It's likely most of our heroes would disappoint us....so your strategy sound like a good one!

Just reading through the article comment section and as of now not one person who chose to comment has said a signal thing about his rudeness or autograph.
Maybe if your a autograph collector you view Mays diffenertly then most ordinary
Baseball fans. I think if you told a regular fan that likes Willie Mays that when he signs autographs he could be a jerk somethings they won't really care.

Sad to say, because it should not have to be this way, but this is extremely wise. Keep Say Hey at a distance, and keep enjoying him and his amazing baseball skills. I still have this several-second video clip in my mind of an outfield play at Candlestick Park. A surefire double or triple hit ball looked like it was going to careen off the outfield fence. Two Giant fielders are trying to get the ball. All of a sudden here comes Willie Mays flying in. You talk about Mr. Jordan in the air. E-gad! Ballet at five feet in the air. Willie caught the ball before it hit the fence. It was flat-out one of the greatest catches I ever saw.

This is why, a decade and a half before he made this play, the great actress and fellow Alabamian Tallulah Bankhead said there were two geniuses in history---Willie Shakespeare and Willie Mays.

---Brian Powell

Genius??
 

I never understood or fully agreed with this quote. Mays was a supreme ballplayer. Nothing more. But a genius? I'd never rank him with Einstein, Stephen Hawking, Jonas Salk, Francis Crick, et. al. True geniuses, all. :confused:

Dave, I feel certain Miss Bankhead simply meant her quip of "genius" as mostly tongue-in-cheek, with a take-off on Shakespearse's first name. It was not meant to be taken that seriously, nor literally. She probably was just a big fan and admirer of Willie Mays, and perhaps thought nobody could make the fielding plays he could.

She shouldda been there when Jose Canseco accidentally muffed a high fly ball, and headed it into the stands for a home run! That gopher ball was one where Mr. C. would have loved to have crawled in "the gopher's hole". That "fielding feat" might be duplicated by someone, but for their sake I hope not!

Nice list of geniuses, though I saw a very convincing documentary about a lady that worked with Francis Crick, who did most of the revealing research, and figured out how to apply it, but never got the credit she rightfully deserved. Crick stole all the credit for himself. A genius of a thief, in retrospect.

The hot stove league never lets up on the Net54baseball.com forums!:D

---Brian Powell