Walter Johnson 3x5 cut?? Help please....
 

First, thanks in advance for your time. I am a long time vintage collector and surprisingly never joined this forum in the past.

Thoughts on this Walter Johnson cut- PSA/DNA quick opinion was “Unable to Render Opinion??”

https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/FLgAA...NFU/s-l500.jpg

The tail in the “r” of Walter and the “son” of Johnson have me concerned. I have closely matched to many PSA/DNA and JSA examples but have not found one that I say “yes.”

This is from EBAY and seller guarantees the authenticity but I’m looking for opinions before proceeding. Seller also sold cuts from Ruth, Ott and Lajoie and has a PSA DNA Ruth for sale.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Walter-John...vip=true&rt=nc

Your timely thoughts and comments are greatly appreciated.

Hey Scott! I can't believe it took you this long to come over to net54, but welcome (for whatever it's worth to the regular posters here - which probably isn't much - I have known and traded with mainemule for years via other online platforms and can vouch for him as a serious and dedicated collector of HOF autos).

Anyway, to your question about the Johnson you've posted, I think it's an interesting example. I like the flow of the sig overall, and while it's been a while since I purchased my Big Train and did the according research, my first instinct in the signature itself was positive. However, you've pointed to some anomalies in the sig relative to known exemplars (good to do your research).

I don't personally like to say that an autograph is authentic or not (unless it is a very clear forgery, which there are too many of in this hobby but which I don't believe this one to be). Instead, I like to state whether I would buy it for my own collection. In that regard, I probably wouldn't add this one just because of my general skepticism of cuts like this (in combination with the anomalies you list). It's kind of a "when there's a bit of doubt, best to pass," especially with the amounts of money we are dealing with (I have no idea what you paid for this because I haven't clicked on the link).

I know that probably doesn't help with the seller (if you decide to return), but that's what I got.

And stick around here, man, there is a wealth of knowledge. Sometimes there is an understandable hesitance to help new posters with opinions because there have always been people popping in with questionable motives, but I hope that others will take my word that you're a legit collector and chime in with their own opinions here.

Looks like it sold already, and very cheap...which is usually a good indication that the people the know WJ weren't feelin' it.

P.S. Welcome to the board!

Wayne, thanks for your welcome and your comments! :) As you know, I found FCB when the Beckett Board changed and I posted there in the early years. As life got in the way, I was able to continue collecting but posting on boards became difficult for me. I'll check this Board out in more detail and maybe I can be a resource in some areas.

To further explain my collecting passions, I am a PSA DNA HOFer auto collector (on 3x5's and GPC's for the most part- have 237 different HOFers), a Ted Williams super collector and a collector of various vintage sets (56 -58 Topps, 53 Bowman are some highlights).

With regards to this Johnson, I am actually the winning bidder. I tried the PSA QO with no results provided. Seller understands I am trying to establish comfort with the item and will let me walk if I desire.

I knew of this Board and figured more veteran collectors would better provide information to me then on FCB, where I have a long history and autos of this nature are not so widely discussed.

Anyways, I hope this explains my "maiden voyage" here and I welcome other comments. I do appreciate your comments mr2686/Mike and welcome. :)

Scott

Welcome! I still spend time on FCB but am constantly blown away by the knowledge and collections of people here; and the focus is definitely different.

Thanks Jeff, I recognize your name from FCB :)

I had in the back of my mind that this place was maybe a more seasoned or experienced audience to look at an older piece (like this auto).

I'm hopeful to get some other opinions on the cut as I need to make a decision whether to purchase this early next week.

Best to you, Scott

This is a WaJo that I had about a year ago if it helps.

http://i792.photobucket.com/albums/y...segva7eo0.jpeg

Thank you!

Welcome to the forum, Scott. As far as our ages, I think I like seasoned better than old. :) Many of us are well seasoned. For a Big Train auto you can always get his grandson's thoughts as he posts mainly on the card and memorabilia sections. ...if I can ever help with anything board related just shoot me a PM, I am usually around. Take care and happy collecting.

I'm really curious about this one now. I hope that some of our experienced WaJo collectors will chime in here.

Thank you Leon! I tried to choose my words carefully ;)

That's amazing that the Big Train's grandson is on this board. I'd love to have him give this a once over, though after thorough review of the PSA DNA on-line exemplars, I'm 90/10 going to pass on this item.

All the best.....

While I am okay with elements of it, I don't like the severe angles on the "J" and I don't like the "W" or the "r" in his first name.

Thank you for your feedback. That's about the way I felt as well. Cheers, Scott

I think a lot of people are hesitant to comment on this auto. I am uncomfortable with it and that is a reason I did not bid on it. I do not believe it will pass PSA and there are others that the seller was selling or has sold that I do not believe would pass. I find it ironic that he has a bunch of Hollywood signatures then a number of very tough HOFers on cuts on 3x5’s.

When there are few comments on something, the silence is deafening.

BTW, i am not for or against PSA but hitching your wagon to a company may not be the best way to accumulate an incredible collection. You are going to get a number of anti authenticator comments on the board going forward, but I do think they serve a purpose for the industry. I just don’t think you should solely rely on them as the end all.

It’s always good to have another advanced collector on Net54 so welcome. Take care, Jason

Agree with everyone else here-
1) Welcome to the boards, I hope you share your collection with others here, you will find a wealth of knowledge here.
2) Many people here (myself included) are reluctant to give opinions, unless they feel very certain either for or against. Fortunately, there are a lot of very smart people on these boards that can quickly identify the good from the bad.
3) Personally, I have moved my BBHOF collection away from cuts and have virtually none in my collection. I once had a Pop Lloyd cut that everyone thought was good-but PSA failed, so I pretty much never bought another cut again. That being said, I still have many regrets selling it.

I look forward to more of your posts!

Frank

Thanks for the thoughtful post Jason. I decided I wanted to securely and permanently protect my collection so that is why I went the PSA route. I do shy from cuts but have had to go that route with a couple of more difficult signatures. My collection, my preference ;)

I appreciate the welcome and hope to try and check things out here more frequently.

Thank you Frank!! I tend not to like to self-promote but I'll try and share when time and purpose are in alignment. Best, Scott

This is the ONLY place I can self-promote!! You think my wife cares (or knows for that matter) about my autograph obsession?!

....touché.......cards/autographs > shoes/jewelry.....

Hi Scott,
I am the aforementioned grandson, and want to welcome you to this fabulous forum that provides so much to so many. I'm amazed, but not surprised, at how your little individual item post has generated so much thoughtful commentary ranging from the specific to some of the biggest issues in the hobby. A few thoughts:
1) Whenever I'm asked my opinion of a Johnson autograph, I always preface it with the caveat that I am no expert whatsoever on autographs or autography (if that's a word!). Yes, I've seen a lot of genuine WaJo signatures in my time, but have never attempted to make any kind of study of it. I can't tell you how he makes his "r" or crosses his "t" or anything like that. My totally unscientific method is to take one look, and a fairly quick one at that, then render my distinctly amateur opinion, which I'm happy to do for you. On that basis your cut gets the thumbs down from me. The only specific thing I'd say about it is that it looks too good, if that makes any sense. Just too clean, too practiced, maybe? Oh, and it just doesn't look very old to me, no indication that almost 100 years have passed since he was supposed to have written it. As I said, strictly one amateur's opinion, and doesn't mean that Grandpa didn't do it. And that leads me to my second comment.
2) Because they have set themselves up as the Gods of the hobby--able to smite the mightiest card or autograph with the mere stroke of a pen--the TPAs come in for a lot of criticism, here and elsewhere. And that's healthy, they should be accountable for the great influence they have with their decisions, which are rendered in darkness and never explained. Their mistakes and shortcoming should be exposed and examined in great detail to encourage them to be better. But, in general, I just don't know how you can improve on a system whereby some of the very top experts in the field, with access to an enormous database of exemplars, looks at your autograph with the aid of state of the art technology and tells you whether, in their opinion, it's good or not. They're not infallible, and the best will be the first to tell you that, but to me that's about as good as it gets. I remember well the old days of the hobby, the "wild west" some call it for good reason. Anybody want to go back to that? As for PSA, which you mentioned, they now have two of the very best autograph guys there have ever been in our hobby rendering their professional judgements on the good stuff. How can you beat that? DISCLAIMER: Kevin Keating is one of my very best friends and I did shows with him for many years, and Bill Corcoran is without question one of the most knowledgeable and lovable characters you'll ever meet. I'll give you my car if you can prove to me that either one of those guys ever did anything dishonest. Someone said not to depend on PSA for building your collection, but I would ask why not? As long as those fellas are running it, I don't see how you could do any better. Yes, it's great (and fun) to learn all you can yourself, but if you did nothing else for the next ten years you'd only begin to approach the kind of expertise they will give you for a few bucks a pop.
Wow, didn't mean to go on like this, but it's a slow Tuesday here in the Bat Cave. Enjoy your collecting, and hope to see you around here a lot.
Hank Thomas

I guess the question, at least to me, is who else authenticates the autographs besides Keating and Corcoran over at PSA. I think we've all heard the horror stories of barely trained "kids" authenticating (or not) over at JSA. I would never have a problem if I knew that a Keating, or Corcoran, etc. were looking at anything I submitted or that had looked at something I wanted to purchase.
With that said, and with another recent thread in mind, it doesn't matter who authenticates an autograph...if I don't personally like it, I don't want it in my collection. Why buy or keep something that you personally have questions about?

Absolutely, the TPAs should be able to explain and justify their basic procedures, their "quality control" so to speak. I do know that as hard as they work and as much traveling as they do, Kevin and Bill must be looking at a hell of a lot of vintage stuff, and I'm sure they are always available to pass final judgement on things others might be on the fence about. I hope I don't come across as sounding like some kind of shill for PSA, I have absolutely nothing to do with them, and have never met Joe Orlando. I just think that TPAs generally have been a good thing for the hobby overall, and it's well known the regard I hold for Keating. But collectors that really know autographs should never give up their own judgements any more than card collectors should blindly accept grading by the TPAs. "Buy the card/autograph, not the slab," seems like good advice in both instances.

...without quoting your entire response Hank, thank you for your thoughtful and thorough comments. I really appreciate that you took the time to pen (type ;)) this insight on this thread.

I should have more thoroughly researched this item. I am pretty savvy on internet research and Ebay but I was eager to get "thumbs up" or "thumbs down" in order to decide whether to complete the purchase or not. Shame on me for not doing my full due diligence, however, I am now checking these forums so maybe I've found a new place to reconnect with fellow vintage hobbyists.

My big excitement in life is tomorrow I am going to the new Yankee Stadium to see the Sox at Yanks. I'm a lifelong Sox fan (age 51) who has seen them in many other parks so this is bucket-list stuff. Also seeing Springsteen on Broadway so it will be a weekend for the ages.

Thanks again Hank! I can only imagine the family stories (and perhaps memorabilia) that belong to you and your family.

All my best......

.....thanks to all who posted on this last year in this thread. I may not have acknowledged everyone who did post.

This cut is back on Ebay so figured I would share this information.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Walter-John...4AAOSw2Uxc5JF9

Best, Scott

I like cold cuts better than autograph cuts. Cold Cuts don't leave a bad taste in your mouth like 95% of all autograph cuts. I'd pass.

Leave it to Fuddj to come up with the funniest post on this thread.
LMAO.

This Ebay seller has been posting some fairly good forgeries for a while. I'm sure a lot of people have been had since you first posted it.

Welcome Scott- excuse my ignorance but what is FCB? I love net54 but would like to know of another besides it and SCN which doesn't compare

Freedomcardboard.com

It's mostly people who collect modern cards, but there's a great group of people there and quite a few people there are members here as well.

Love seeing another HOF auto collector pop up. 237 is a great count. I know TazDMB and myself would love to see what you got!

Thanks for the welcome!! Wish I was around more to post....

Thanks for the kind words...I am now at 243 with the new class of 2019. I've been hung up for a number of years at adding any old-timer. I am pretty fussy in that I only collect 3x5's/GPCs, with an occasional cut or check thrown in. The handful of obtainable signatures that I have on my radar are as follows:

Pete Alexander
Mordecai Brown
Ray Brown
Johnny Evers
Bill Foster
Lou Gehrig
Walter Johnson
Christy Mathewson
Babe Ruth
Joe Tinker
Hack Wilson
Cy Young
Charlie Comiskey
Ban Johnson

I may never add any of them or maybe I'll strike lightening in a bottle and land a bunch of 'em.;)

Enjoy your weekend.

I have everyone of those...On 3 x5 cards:D:D:D. You are gonna end up with a very nice collection of forgeries, IMHO.

....yeah, more than likely I'd find these on GPCs and through one of the bigger auctions houses.

I'd love to see your 3x5s though....;)