Who's missing from the HOF?
 

Posted By: <b>runscott</b><p>Okay, I know this is an old topic, but I've been accumulating my evidence in behalf of Ed Reulbach. Let's hear who you think has been unfairly omitted, and please, what's missing from Big Ed's resume?!?<BR><BR>Also, what was the name of that book that explains why dead-ball-era ballplayers are getting screwed by the Veteran's Comittee? (thanks!)<BR><BR><a href="http://www.homestead.com/runscott/BigEd.html" target=_new>http://www.homestead.com/runscott/BigEd.html</a>

Who's missing from the HOF?
 

Posted By: <b>brian</b><p>My vote goes to Bill Dahlen, almost 2500 hits for a middle infielder. Others which should receive consideration, Sherry Magee, Bill donavon, Jack Quinn and of course Ed Reulbach.<BR> be well brian

Who's missing from the HOF?
 

Posted By: <b>David</b><p>James Creighton

Who's missing from the HOF?
 

Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>definately Creighton, also Decon Phillippe, Ron Santo, Bert Blyleven, Gary Carter. And if you are going to put Koufax in for 5 great years and bunch of mediocre years, then you have to put Jim Rice in. Not sure if Harry Stovey and George Davis (easily the greatest 2B in the 19th C) have gotten in yet, but they should be along with George Gore and Bud Fowler (the first Black player) and possibley a few other 19th C players. I am sure there are a number of players from the Negro LEagues that have been overlooked too.<BR><BR>Jay

Who's missing from the HOF?
 

Posted By: <b>Kevin Cummings</b><p>I think the problem with Ed Ruelbach is that he is too much like many other pitchers who also have what could be construed as "legitimate" claims to the Hall of Fame - none of whom is <b><u>outstanding</u></b>.<BR><BR>I happen to be a fan of Bill James who attempts to evaluate HOF candidates (past and present) using statistical methods. <BR><BR>If you look at Reulbach's "numbers" at the link below and then go down to the bottom of the page and look at the "Similar Pitchers" section, Reulbach's "measurements" put him in a grouping with only one of ten who are already in the Hall of Fame. As a point of reference, Tony Mullane's "measurements" put him in a grouping where seven of the ten are HOFers.<BR><BR><a href="http://www.baseball-reference.com/r/reulbed01.shtml" target=_new>http://www.baseball-reference.com/r/reulbed01.shtml</a><BR><a href="http://www.baseball-reference.com/m/mullato01.shtml" target=_new>http://www.baseball-reference.com/m/mullato01.shtml</a><BR><BR>This doesn't mean that just because someone is already in the Hall of Fame he can be used to justify the inclusion of another similar player. That is one reason Bill James developed his statistics - to analyze and argue against emotional comparisons. One might argue, however, that being in a group where <b>seven</b> of your <b><u>statistical peers</u></b> are in the Hall of Fame would lend credence to the belief that you belong more than being in a group with just one.<BR><BR>If it makes you feel any better, Gus Weyhing is one of my favorite pitchers (for somewhat of an emotional reason since I know one of his descendants). He's one of the three in the Mullane grouping who isn't in the Hall and he'll never get in either!<BR><BR>As for position players, I think George Van Haltren and Jimmy Ryan belong, but with the new voting rules, I don't think it'll ever happen.<BR>

Who's missing from the HOF?
 

Posted By: <b>TBob</b><p>The man Cobb said was the best 3rd baseman in the game, Buck Weaver. The man Cobb said was the best hitter he ever saw, Joe Jackson. The man who if he hadn't given up baseball for the theater would have been a lock for the Hall, Turkey Mike Donlin.

Who's missing from the HOF?
 

Posted By: <b>Brian Hodes</b><p>B. Dahlen (really similar to Geo. Davis), <BR>T. Mullane, <BR>Bobby Mathews (virtually 300 wins if you count the National Association)<BR>Geo. Van Haltren,<BR>Bob Carruthers;<BR>McCormick and <BR>Maybe Carl Mays (depending on whether you think he was trying to hit Chapman and if so just how different that really was than what Bob Gibson and Don Drysdale did and what Pedro and the Rocket still do)<BR>---<BR>Ruelbach comes in a little later because:<BR>1 his career was short;<BR>2. In the context of his times his record isn't quite as strong as it sounds today (Pitcher's era)<BR>3. his short career argument is weakened considerably because he was never really an Ace (like Carruthers)-- Brown was the Cubs' Ace.<BR><BR>Note: <BR>Ruelbach is still probably more deserving than some current HOF Pitchers -- Pennock for example.<BR>--- <BR>Probably some negro league players are still desrving -- not something I know that much about though.<BR>

Who's missing from the HOF?
 

Posted By: <b>Jaime Leiderman</b><p>James Creighton!<BR><BR>

Who's missing from the HOF?
 

Posted By: <b>Jeff Obermeyer</b><p>IMO there are already way too many players in the HOF, and adding more "borderline" players does nothing but dilute it even more.<BR><BR>If it's going to be a true Hall of Fame, it should include the greatest players, not guys that were really, really good, or that set some kind of single season record.<BR><BR>Bill James hit the nail on the head on this issue - every time you enshrine someone who is comparable to other HOFers, just not quite as good, you open the door to the next level down of players. It's the old argument, "Well if Player A is in the HOF, than Player B surely should because he was a better/as good pitcher/hitter/fielder, etc." <BR><BR>I don't want to argue the merits of Reulbach here, but lets consider one fact. Reulbach's major league career ended in 1917... and in all that time the sportswriters and later the Veterans Committee (yes, I know the VC is a farce...) never felt he was good enough. He certainly hasn't gotten any better lately... so why elect him now? As for Creighton, I know he was probably the games first star player... but he only played 4 years before he died at the age of 21!<BR><BR>I know that they could never do it, but I wouldn't mind seeing them cut the number of guys in the Hall by about 40-50%. It's starting to look like the Hockey Hall of Fame, where everybody and their brother is enshrined.<BR><BR>Jeff

Who's missing from the HOF?
 

Posted By: <b>jeff</b><p>I generally feel that inducting long-deceased players (G. Davis, Willis, potentially Reulbach, etc.) is a waste. Nobody gains anything from it besides, as Jeff points out, the second-tier players who then have a claim to standing in a diluted HOF. <BR><BR>But it seems to me the biggest problem with the general direction of most such arguments (as they invariably bring up Bill James's research, which I admire) is that they don't address the fundamental question:<BR><BR>Who is the Hall of Fame supposed to enshrine, anyway?<BR><BR>If we go by the name, it's anybody famous. Once you hit a big World Series grand slam, you're in. Characters--from Bob Uecker to Curt Flood--are in. Perhaps pillars of infamy--whether Buck Weaver or Fred Merkle--are in.<BR><BR>That seems counter-intuitive, so we tilt toward a focus on stats. But obviously that's not what it's about either -- or else no gm, owner or commissioner could be enshrined. And with people like Tony Mullane left out. <BR><BR>So we end up with the mix we have now -- where a combination of notoriety and stats-based dominance reigns (hence Koufax), except for people who have unquestionable stats and not much notoriety (most recent VC inductees fit this bill). But even that qualification doesn't account for, say, Freddie Lindstrom.<BR><BR>Ultimately, I tend to think it just doesn't matter. First time I went to the HOF (I think I was 8 or 9 years old), I remember telling my dad that it didn't really matter who had a plaque or not -- other exhibits made sure that Bill Wambaganss, Bill Mazeroski, even Pete Rose got as much attention in the building labeled Hall of Fame. As if the plaques are some sort of award for distinction, but not really all that important.<BR><BR>(Not that I object to the discussion--I have a bunch of Reulbach cards waiting around for Scott to boost the value of &lt;g&gt;).<BR><BR>Jeff

Who's missing from the HOF?
 

Posted By: <b>petecld</b><p>I always get criticized quite soundly when I express the same sentiment among my friends. Heck, I've even had bar peanuts tossed at me. <BR><BR>NOTE: Don't ever say out loud in a bar near Wrigley Field that Santo doesn't belong in the Hall unless you like peanuts.<BR><BR>The Hall of Fame should be a place for the BEST - not the above average or those who played long enough to get to a certain "magic" number.<BR><BR>Sutton, Niekro, Maz, Bunning - shouldn't be Hall-of-Famers. Ron Santo, Bert Blyleven, Mattingly, Gooden, Jim Rice, Gary Carter - all were really good, above average players but, no, I just can't see them in the Hall.

Who's missing from the HOF?
 

Posted By: <b>Julie Vognar</b><p>....

Who's missing from the HOF?
 

Posted By: <b>runscott</b><p>I guess I'm just reading the stats differently for Reulbach. He WAS the Cubs dominant pitcher for several years...yes, better than Mordecai Brown. And though ERA was generally low during the years he pitched (14 yrs - doesn't seem like a short career to me), the same number of teams had to lose as win, and his W-L percentage was certainly HOF-caliber - 182-106. I don't consider him a borderline player at all. The ones you listed (Niekro,Sutton) are borderline, and guys like Blyleven and Santo don't even make it on the map.

Who's missing from the HOF?
 

Posted By: <b>Elliot</b><p>On the topic of who's in, but shouldn't be---what about Tinker and Evers. Also, Bresnahan---it helps to have friends on the VC.

Who's missing from the HOF?
 

Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>I am torn between the 'supernovas' like Koufax and 'career' players, that play for 20+ years and post outstanding career numbers, but never dominated in a season. <BR><BR>If Gary CArter doesn't belong, then what catcher from his era does? He was unquestionably the best catcher in the game during the 1980s. From the late 70s to early 80s there was no more feared hitter than Jim Rice. If Koufax gets in for 5 great years, then Rice shouldn't have a problem getting in. He was just as dominate a hitter for 5 years as Koufaz was a pitcher.<BR><BR>The argument against players like Neikro and Sutton isn't real good either, claiming that they hung on to rack up magic numbers. The only problem with that claim is that you cannot jsut decide to hang around and rack up magic numbers. You still need to have the ability to win a roster spot. As great as Koufax may have been for 5 years, he couldn't sustain even a mediocre career before then and was incapable of playing beyond his best years.<BR><BR>I am sure that there a lot of above average players that would like to hang on for 20+ years to rack up magic numbers, but it takes more than being just an above average player to do that. Career records are based on longevity. And you don't hang around for an extended period of time by being an average or even above average player.<BR><BR>The other big disparity is that the HOF is overloaded with big bats that couldn't field to save their life, yet almost no one is in based on their defensive prowess. The rare exceptions are Maz and Ozzie Smith, and it took way too long to get Maz in there.<BR><BR>Jay

Who's missing from the HOF?
 

Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>easily half of all HOFers that got in via the VC could be tossed and no one would really complain. Everyone knows that the VC was an old-cronies network that voted in friends. The most egregeous of these probably being Lindstrom and Maranville, just to name a few. I'm surprised Casey from Mudville didn't get elected when Tinkers-Evers-Chance did. They got in because of a poem, so why not Mighty Casey?<BR><BR>Jay

Who's missing from the HOF?
 

Posted By: <b>runscott</b><p>Most of Niekro's career you barely noticed he was there. Same with Sutton - he was a hard thrower for a few years, then learned to "pitch" just to hang around for a long career, never dominating anything. <BR><BR>I followed baseball as a kid very closely during the '60s and '70s - Niekro and Sutton were not baseball cards I cared about pulling. I would have much rather had a Sam McDowell or Frank Howard.

Who's missing from the HOF?
 

Posted By: <b>Julie Vognar</b><p>led the leagues in errors almost every year he played...

Who's missing from the HOF?
 

Posted By: <b>Jay Miller</b><p>Two of the dominant players during their era were Pete Browning and,one of my favorites, Dave Orr. The arguement against them is that they played in the "inferior" American Association. First, the "inferior" part is hogwash; American Association teams held their own very well in interleague play. Second, in 1890 when Orr and Browning competed with the big boys as part of the Player's League they were two of the league's top hitters.<BR>

Who's missing from the HOF?
 

Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>Forgot to mention Orr and Browning. They were definately two of the best hitters in their day.<BR><BR>Obscure trivia question: Who is the only pitcher to lead the league in BA and HRs?<BR><BR>Jay

Who's missing from the HOF?
 

Posted By: <b>Brian Hodes</b><p>Ward is a definite HOFer (even if the standards were heightened considerablY)His short careers first as a pitcher (2.10 lifetime ERA) and then as a hitter (2000 hits, 1400 Runs etc) are each close to HOF level... Throw in his managerial career and his off-the0-field role as a labor leader etc and he is really one of the most significant figures in 19th Century Baseball...<BR><BR>Pete Browning, the original "Lousiville Slugger", had a .341 average but didn't even make 1700 hits (his fielding was apparently really bad, too). Big Dave Orr also hit over .340 lifetime but played only 7 years accumulating just over 1125 hits (seasons were much shorter in the 19th Century otherwise Anson would have had 4000 hits or something). Anyway I think that the lack of lifetime credentials holds both these AA stars back.<BR>I'm with Jay on the prejudice against the American Association, though. I think that except for its first and last years it was certainly up to snuff. Sadly only one player is the HOF who was mostly an Association star, the elusive Bid McPhee....<BR>My favorite AA candidates are Carruthers,who was the ace of the best team in the AA for a number of years with a record of 218-99 (and he could hit too!) and Count Mullane, whose lifetime stats are, as Kevin noted above, clearly HOF callibre and are much better than several HOF candidates who were selected for longevity (i.e. not Chesbro, Koufax or Joss) including Vic Willis, Hoyt, Faber, Pennock, Drysdale, Marquard and McGinitty....<BR>Anyway I think I give this stuff way too much thought.<BR>

Who's missing from the HOF?
 

Posted By: <b>W.M.</b><p>Considering he played from 1888 to 1902 he put up some pretty decent numbers Sam Crawford called him a great outfielder. I would like to see the veterans commitee give him another look.

Who's missing from the HOF?
 

Posted By: <b>David</b><p>Since Robin Yount is my favorite player, I think he should have been voted in twice

Who's missing from the HOF?
 

Posted By: <b>TBob</b><p>thanusing the same theory, Tony Oliva belongs. His star blazed about the same time and he was the mst feared hitter (not slugger, hitter) in the American League in the 60's. His career was similar to Kirby Puckett's, and Puck was a 1st time entrant. Puck's eye, Tony O's knees.

Who's missing from the HOF?
 

Posted By: <b>harry</b><p>Nothing against Oliva, but Koufax was a much more dominant pitcher at the pinnacle of his career than Oliva was a hitter.<BR><BR>Koufax led the league in ERA for 5 straight years. He won 3 Cy Young awards- all by a unanimous vote. I believe that he was the first pitcher to win the award unanimously and he did it three times! Remember, this was a time when only one Cy Young award was given out for both leagues! He won the MVP in 1963- the first pitcher since 1956!<BR><BR>

Who's missing from the HOF?
 

Posted By: <b>jeff</b><p>having now found out about the Dickie Thon Fan Club, my life is now complete!<BR><BR><img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

Who's missing from the HOF?
 

Posted By: <b>john</b><p>as long as omar vizquel makes the hall of fame ill be happy(and i'll retire!). If i could vote tho the first 2 players i would put in is Jimmy Ryan and Tony Mullane,but maybe i should get some of their cards before i do that.... also i would make Larry Corcoran an honorary member (eventho he didnt play long enough)for no particular reason(shut up scott! <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> )

Who's missing from the HOF?
 

Posted By: <b>runscott</b><p>...because he has the weirdest collection of anyone I know.

Who's missing from the HOF?
 

Posted By: <b>glenv</b><p>Rose!

Who's missing from the HOF?
 

Posted By: <b>Jay Miller</b><p>John--Drop me an email. I have another Corcoran.<BR><BR>jmiller@sempratrading.com or<BR>curl777@aol.com

Who's missing from the HOF?
 

Posted By: <b>runscott</b><p>contributing to John's illness

Who's missing from the HOF?
 

Posted By: <b>Elliot</b><p>Tbob got mad at once before when I posted this link, but here goes:<BR><a href="http://www.dickiethon.com/rhoma/hof/oliva.htm" target=_new>http://www.dickiethon.com/rhoma/hof/oliva.htm</a>

Who's missing from the HOF?
 

Posted By: <b>John</b><p>Im preparing my speech now. Just for the record i collect Pirates cards,Carlton Fisk,Rondell White,Omar Vizquel (rookies only,3200+ but i got them cheap!),Larry Corcoran,old judge and t206 cards,and tobacco type cards....He thinks its wierd that i have only 3 t204 cards and they are all Tom Reilly ..... the only reason scott wants ed reulbach in the hall of fame is Scott collects his cards,next thing you know hes gonna want nap rucker in too!

Who's missing from the HOF?
 

Posted By: <b>HalleyGator</b><p>"contributing"????<BR><BR>Jay is the sole CAUSE of my vintage card sickness.<BR><BR>I am sorry to hear that my buddy John is also afflicted with the disease, but at least we caught it from the same carrier...<BR><BR>Typhoid Miller

Who's missing from the HOF?
 

Posted By: <b>Thomas</b><p><BR> Personally I think Don Mattingly should be in the hall. I know I am in the minority here, but I stand by my statement above.<BR> I believe him to be the best first first baseman in the AL of his time and arguably the best 1b man in the majors at that time as well. Plus I think he is one of the greatest fielders of all time.<BR> His batting numbers aren't too shabby either. Granted the power numbers suffered after the back injury. I think what hurts his chances is that he didn't stick around to pad the numbers, he retired while still batting respectably and still at the top of his game fielding wise. I'm certain he could've hung around and got 3000 hits(or very close).<BR><BR>Well that's just my little opinion,<BR>Thomas

Who's missing from the HOF?
 

Posted By: <b>Andy Baran</b><p>I'm not sure how you can put McGinnity in a group of questionable pitchers with long careers. Joe only played 10 season's, and averaged just under 25 wins per year.

Who's missing from the HOF?
 

Posted By: <b>john</b><p>the only known cure is a free(gradeable) bid mcphee card for Hal,please help us!<BR><BR>note to Hal only,no one else read past here:<BR>If someone falls for this you owe me big time Hal

Who's missing from the HOF?
 

Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>If Mattingly played for anyone but the Yankees no one would even consider him candidate. Hrbek was a better fielder than him.<BR><BR>Jay

Who's missing from the HOF?
 

Posted By: <b>Julie Vognar</b><p>when i say he led the league in errors almost every year, I mean like twice as many as anyone else! Just thought it should be mentioned. I looked him up when i got the A35 with him on it.<BR><BR>I think Lew lipset probably had more to do with getting me into the 19th century than anyone else. he started out sending me T202s. Then...

Who's missing from the HOF?
 

Posted By: <b>runscott</b><p>Mattingly puts Herbie to shame - you're being Minnesota-biased. Get in the chat-room and lets duke it out.

Who's missing from the HOF?
 

Posted By: <b>Kevin Cummings</b><p>Admittedly, Herbie was good; Mattingly was better. <BR><BR>In almost an identical number of career games at first base, Mattingly beats Hrbek in <b><u>every</u></b> fielding category.<BR><BR>Bill James rates Mattingly 12th best all-time (ahead of 9 Hall of Famers); Herbie is 40th (ahead of 2 HOFers).<BR><BR>I'm a Yankee/Mattingly fan. He's not getting in either.

Who's missing from the HOF?
 

Posted By: <b>warshawlaw</b><p>Great slugger, great first baseman, great manager (he should get in for that job alone). <BR><BR>

Who's missing from the HOF?
 

Posted By: <b>Anonymous</b><p>Mattingly was a great fielder -- but during some of his career there was one better fielding 1B -- in New York no less -- Jerry Seinfeld's pal Keith Hernandez!<BR><BR>Sooner or later Mattingly gets in -- which is fine there are worse players in and there are worse players who will get it. He will be the first great Yankee since Jack Chesbro (technically a "Highlander") who never won World Series with them.<BR><BR>Hodges wasn't that good (but as above there are worse in Cooperstown) but I have faith in that eventually he'll get in too... Joe Torre was a better player and is a better manager. Will Clark probably won't get in and I think he was better than Hodges too !

Who's missing from the HOF?
 

Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>No MN bias. Hrbek may have been big a fat, but he was a much better defensive 1B than Mattingly. I watched him dig balls and make diving stops that would have gotten past Mattingly.<BR><BR>Jay

Who's missing from the HOF?
 

Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>Anyone that knows anything about fielding stats knows that they are the most useless stats around. Right there with the Game Winning RBI. Lots of SS had better lifetime fielding numbers than Ozzie Smith, but I don't think anyone would claim those players better defensively than Ozzie.<BR><BR>Jay

Who's missing from the HOF?
 

Posted By: <b>Brian Hodes</b><p>Good night.

Who's missing from the HOF?
 

Posted By: <b>runscott</b><p>If he could have kept up those "prime year" stats for another three years he would have been in by now, but he'll get in anyway.

Who's missing from the HOF?
 

Posted By: <b>W.M.</b><p>Mattingly !!! How could anyone consider Mattingly and not Gil Hodges is beyond me, Only because Mattingly was a Yankee that does not make him a HOF Canidate. Mattingly. HA

Who's missing from the HOF?
 

Posted By: <b>warshawlaw</b><p>I agree he belongs but as a manager. I think he is below the age floor for managers to go in.

Who's missing from the HOF?
 

Posted By: <b>Rob</b><p>2 people who come to mind that are missing from the Hall of Fame are simply<BR>Joe Jackson<BR>and <BR>Pete Rose.<BR><BR>Both Were accuses of gambling on baseball, but neither player was ever proven guilty of gambling on baseball.<BR><BR>In my mind both Players belong in the HOF. <BR>as for guys like Bill Mazerowski.....that is a joke if you put jim in then REY Ordonez has a great shot of making the hall right???????