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-   -   Pujols 600 Home runs! (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=240581)

cardsfan73 06-04-2017 12:54 AM

Pujols 600 Home runs!
 
Congrats Albert! I am glad I got to see the vast majority of them while he was in a Cardinals uniform. The first 11 years of his career were something special. He is one of the best hitters (if not the best) that I have ever seen play the game. I think you can throw him in the conversation as the best first baseman ever.

ALR-bishop 06-04-2017 07:00 AM

Was sorry to see him go, but glad he rejected their last offer and took the long term contract with the Angels. It allowed the Cards to be more competitive than the Angels in subsequent years. Albert has not been back to the WS since he left St Louis and the Cards have.

Still, am glad to see him do well and he seems healthier this year too. I think he has a 10 year service contract with the Angels after his 10 year player deal.

So, when he goe into the Hall, what logo ?

cardsfan73 06-04-2017 08:34 AM

Oh I agree, I am glad we didn't resign him. It would have hurt the team more than it helped us in the long run.

I am pretty sure he has to go in as a Cardinal. The best years were spent here in St. Louis and he won a World series here.

HRBAKER 06-04-2017 08:46 AM

2 - World Series titles in St. Louis, I doubt he will sniff one in LA.
Great move by the Cards not to hamstring themselves with the type of contract he would have insisted upon. Don't know how bitter he was/is about that. Whether he chooses to go in as a Cardinal or not makes no difference - the best years of his career were in St. Louis by far.

3000 hits is next and then let's see if he can get to 700.
That's a very small club with 700 HRs and 3000 hits.

cardsfan73 06-04-2017 09:46 AM

I would rather see him retire with a career batting average over .300 than hang around for 700 home runs.

Hell he could retire right now and he is a sure fire Hall Of Fame.

cardsfan73 06-04-2017 09:46 AM

double post

ALR-bishop 06-04-2017 10:24 AM

Hope he is not bitter, the Cardinals did offer him a huge contract and he would have been treated Musial like for life in St Louis had he stayed. But I think the front office sighed in relief when he went west.

Does he live in LA ? Does he still have a Foundation based in St Louis ?

I think I heard his wife may have been a prime mover in the change

cardsfan73 06-04-2017 11:33 AM

He still has a home in St. Louis County (Wildwood) and is still very involved with his foundation here.

Sure there were times were he could be a little grumpy with the media, but over all he is a great guy. He has done & continues to do so much charity work here.

I used to work in West County and his wife frequented the place of my employment at the time. Very nice & unassuming lady. Never once saw the "do you know who my husband is" attitude.

According to this 2016 article on Fox Sports he has no bitterness towards St. Louis or the Cardinals.

http://www.foxsports.com/mlb/story/s...-molina-051116

HRBAKER 06-04-2017 02:35 PM

I would hope some one would not be bitter bc you refused to pay them 24 mil a year.

Snapolit1 06-04-2017 02:45 PM

He gets almost as much hype as a Yankee catcher who played well for 8 weeks last year.

Peter_Spaeth 06-04-2017 04:38 PM

He's had 3 100 RBI seasons in LA and is well on his way to another one. Sure he dropped off a bit from the level at which he had been amassing record numbers, but it's not exactly like he's been bad.

nat 06-04-2017 06:37 PM

Considering that he's a DH now he's been ... adequate. And is making way too much to be a merely adequate DH. I always hate seeing the greats lose a step.

Players usually don't get a say on which cap they wear on their plaque. IIRC Wade Boggs asked for a Devil Rays cap and the hall said "no".

clydepepper 06-04-2017 08:00 PM

I sure hope that he has accomplished this 'without help'.



.

nat 06-05-2017 09:18 AM

There's no reason to think that he's had help. They've been testing for almost his entire career and he's never come back positive. He also has a very ordinary aging pattern. He was good when he was young, got better in his late 20's, and has dropped off as he's gotten older. The only thing really unusual is how good he was, but by definition great players are unusual. The really suspicious aging patterns are the "double peaks", where a player is great in his late 20's (like normal), declines, and then is great again (this is what Bonds did). That kind of aging is possible but very very unlikely to happen naturally. And Pujols hasn't been doing it, he's been getting worse (with normal ups and downs) as he's been moving through his 30s.

He's also kept the skills that you expect a player to naturally keep as he gets older, and lost the ones that you expect him to lose. He's still got his power, and power is often the last skill to go. But his batting average has cratered - as expected. Batting average is in part a product of players being able to leg out infield hits, something that older players have trouble doing. Defense is also one of the first skills to go (usually), and Pujols went from being an extraordinary defensive player to being a DH. (He was only a first baseman because he hurt his arm and couldn't play the outfield any more, and they already had Rolen - an all-time great defensive 3B - on the other side of the diamond. On any other team he'd have spent his career at third.)

So, of course anything is possible, but none of the evidence indicates that Pujols had any help. He's just a great player.

Peter_Spaeth 06-05-2017 11:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nat (Post 1667668)
There's no reason to think that he's had help. They've been testing for almost his entire career and he's never come back positive. He also has a very ordinary aging pattern. He was good when he was young, got better in his late 20's, and has dropped off as he's gotten older. The only thing really unusual is how good he was, but by definition great players are unusual. The really suspicious aging patterns are the "double peaks", where a player is great in his late 20's (like normal), declines, and then is great again (this is what Bonds did). That kind of aging is possible but very very unlikely to happen naturally. And Pujols hasn't been doing it, he's been getting worse (with normal ups and downs) as he's been moving through his 30s.

He's also kept the skills that you expect a player to naturally keep as he gets older, and lost the ones that you expect him to lose. He's still got his power, and power is often the last skill to go. But his batting average has cratered - as expected. Batting average is in part a product of players being able to leg out infield hits, something that older players have trouble doing. Defense is also one of the first skills to go (usually), and Pujols went from being an extraordinary defensive player to being a DH. (He was only a first baseman because he hurt his arm and couldn't play the outfield any more, and they already had Rolen - an all-time great defensive 3B - on the other side of the diamond. On any other team he'd have spent his career at third.)

So, of course anything is possible, but none of the evidence indicates that Pujols had any help. He's just a great player.

I think the reason for doubt has as much to do with his physical appearance as anything.

KMayUSA6060 06-05-2017 12:03 PM

I'm pretty sure Pujols juiced. To what extent, who knows, but wasn't he on one of those Balco reports or whatever? It wouldn't surprise me if the MLB quietly pulled him aside, told him to knock it off, then swept it all under the rug with him being one of the more well-liked players in the game at the time and baseball needing someone like him to be the "face" of the league.

Congrats to him. I wish he wouldn't pass Thome, but that's almost inevitable.

cardsfan73 06-05-2017 09:14 PM

I have never heard any connection w/ Pujols & Balco.

The one big story I remember about Pujols & PEDS was when former major league player Jack Clark who said Pujols' ex-trainer used to "shoot him up" with performance-enhancing drugs. The trainer Chris Mihlfeld, denied the charges. Albert said he was going to take legal action.. Suddenly Jack changed his story and he and his co-host Kevin Slaten (St. Louis' wanna be sports talk shock jock) both were fired.

More on that story here: http://m.mlb.com/news/article/56426970//

The biggest questions I remember hearing about Pujols is that he was a lot older than he claimed to be. That's why he lasted until the 13th round. The age concern and the fact that he didn't have a "baseball body". Not that he was fat per say, just didnt't look like your prototypical major league prospect. Lucky for St. Louis they took a chance on a "fat kid" who could hit.

I like to think he was/is clean but to be honest nothing would shock me anymore. But until someone can show me absolute proof I am going to give him the benefit of the doubt!

cardsfan73 06-05-2017 09:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth (Post 1667708)
I think the reason for doubt has as much to do with his physical appearance as anything.

What about his physical appearance? He went from being a chubby kid, to a in shape young man to getting out of shape older man. Maybe I have missed something?

cardsfan73 06-05-2017 09:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KMayUSA6060 (Post 1667719)
I'm pretty sure Pujols juiced. To what extent, who knows, but wasn't he on one of those Balco reports or whatever? It wouldn't surprise me if the MLB quietly pulled him aside, told him to knock it off, then swept it all under the rug with him being one of the more well-liked players in the game at the time and baseball needing someone like him to be the "face" of the league.

Congrats to him. I wish he wouldn't pass Thome, but that's almost inevitable.

What makes you pretty sure? I would love to see your sources. If he was and there was proof the press would have been all over him just like they were with Bonds & McGwire.

clydepepper 06-06-2017 12:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth (Post 1667708)
I think the reason for doubt has as much to do with his physical appearance as anything.



...just as surely as you could tell I don't miss any meals :rolleyes:

chaddurbin 06-06-2017 01:26 PM

he's going in as a cardinal, never been more sure of anything in my life.

Peter_Spaeth 06-06-2017 06:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cardsfan73 (Post 1667961)
What about his physical appearance? He went from being a chubby kid, to a in shape young man to getting out of shape older man. Maybe I have missed something?

http://niketown.nike.com/niketown/me...s_1024x768.jpg

http://grg51.typepad.com/.a/6a00d834...9749eb628a4-pi

Not saying he did, just saying when you look like this it is no surprise there may be some rumors.

cardsfan73 06-06-2017 11:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth (Post 1668296)
http://niketown.nike.com/niketown/me...s_1024x768.jpg

http://grg51.typepad.com/.a/6a00d834...9749eb628a4-pi

Not saying he did, just saying when you look like this it is no surprise there may be some rumors.


eh, I know guys that are 100% clean that are a lot more jacked than Pujols is in either picture. Also Muscle & Fitness is know for "enhancing" their cover photos.

Peter_Spaeth 06-07-2017 07:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cardsfan73 (Post 1668407)
eh, I know guys that are 100% clean that are a lot more jacked than Pujols is in either picture. Also Muscle & Fitness is know for "enhancing" their cover photos.

Yes, I am not offering it as proof, just offering it as an explanation for why some people have questions.

MattyC 06-07-2017 09:08 AM

A person can get jacked and ripped as all hell with today's non-steroid supplements, massive amounts of dedication and hard work in the gym, and elite training. No steroids necessary.

Chief among the candidates to undertake such a natural/non-steroid journey would be a professional athlete, a man who makes his career and money and legacy with his body.

packs 06-07-2017 11:27 AM

A lot of guys on muscle mags are dehydrated to near death before a photo is taken. Being dehydrated makes your muscles appear more defined but only until you've re-hydrated yourself.

JollyElm 06-07-2017 06:41 PM

Why you guys wasting your time with fitness magazines? Grab a Playboy. :D

cardsfan73 06-07-2017 11:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JollyElm (Post 1668772)
Why you guys wasting your time with fitness magazines? Grab a Playboy. :D

haha!!!! :)

ALR-bishop 06-08-2017 01:08 PM

Playboy
 
But not from 2-16 to 2-17, unless you really did just read it for the articles.

Davino 08-07-2017 06:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by clydepepper (Post 1667563)
I sure hope that he has accomplished this 'without help'.



.


I'm 100% sure that he used/uses steroids.

bn2cardz 08-07-2017 06:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Davino (Post 1687987)
I'm 100% sure that he used/uses steroids.

You came back from 3 years of inactivity to bump a 2 month old thread for no other reason than to make an adversarial assertion that you can't backup?

bnorth 08-07-2017 07:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bn2cardz (Post 1687993)
You came back from 3 years of inactivity to bump a 2 month old thread for no other reason than to make an adversarial assertion that you can't backup?

That is the problem with PED use, there is no way of knowing for sure no matter how many signs are there. I know I am propably on a short list but to me there is no way Tony Gwynn was not a PED user. Seriously who has their best by far top 5 years in their mid 30's?:D

rats60 08-07-2017 10:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bnorth (Post 1687995)
That is the problem with PED use, there is no way of knowing for sure no matter how many signs are there. I know I am propably on a short list but to me there is no way Tony Gwynn was not a PED user. Seriously who has their best by far top 5 years in their mid 30's?:D

Roberto Clemente's best years were from 31 to 36 and probably would have continued had he not died in a plane crash.

ALR-bishop 08-07-2017 11:03 AM

Welcome back, Davino

bravos4evr 08-07-2017 06:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rats60 (Post 1688081)
Roberto Clemente's best years were from 31 to 36 and probably would have continued had he not died in a plane crash.

yeah, but that coincided with lowering the mound and everyone's offensive stats went up after that!


"That is the problem with PED use, there is no way of knowing for sure no matter how many signs are there. I know I am propably on a short list but to me there is no way Tony Gwynn was not a PED user. Seriously who has their best by far top 5 years in their mid 30's?"


well, Gwynn's best 6 year peak is between ages 23-29......

bnorth 08-07-2017 08:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bravos4evr (Post 1688265)
"


well, Gwynn's best 6 year peak is between ages 23-29......

I would say his best 6 years was between 33 and 38 with his best year at age 37. Just my opinion using old time stats as I don't know squat about the metrics stuff.

rats60 08-07-2017 09:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bravos4evr (Post 1688265)
yeah, but that coincided with lowering the mound and everyone's offensive stats went up after that!
.

Incorrect. Half those seasons were before the mound was lowered. The mound was lowered in 1969 not 1966.

bn2cardz 08-07-2017 09:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bnorth (Post 1688324)
I would say his best 6 years was between 33 and 38 with his best year at age 37. Just my opinion using old time stats as I don't know squat about the metrics stuff.

The newer metrics give you a better idea how a player did against other players playing at the same time.

For instance between 1984-1987 Gwynn had 29 more hits than the highest ranked guys combined in the span. Between 1994-1997 he had 38 less than the highest ranked guys combined in the span. In 1997

You stated his age 37 year was his best year. Metrics show it was his age 27 year. Dig deeper and you would see that in 1997 (age 37) he had a BA of .372, impressive, but only .006 higher than the next guy behind him. Yet in 1987 (age 27) when he had a lower average of .370 this out ranked the next guy behind him by 0.032.
Here are other comparisons of the two years:
1987 - 2nd OBP, 5th OPS, 3rd Adjusted OPS+
1997 - 9th OBP, 7th OPS, 6th in OPS+
So in comparison in the league in Batting he actually wasn't quite as good. WAR just gives us a quick glimpse of this without having to dig into it all.

So knowing this, of the top 5 WAR seasons only one is from when he was older than 30 and that is age 31 for his 3rd highest ranked WAR season. Yet of the top 5 WAR years for Willie Mays 4 of them are after the age of 30 (31-34). So there is certainly a case for players getting better in their 30s.


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