Great newspaper clipping pull, Mike! The Hendrian I have was clearly cut from a larger photo. Can you tell whether the newspaper clipping is a composite or a complete photo? Just wondering.

I do have a Shotwell box, John, and I think it was displayed earlier in this thread.

That's a great question, David, I wonder if anyone has been able to match the image on that Churchman with a photo or at least the teams.

jeff

Jeff, others, are any of you familiar with the T51 Murad multi-sport collegiate set? I think those cards are really really attractive. There are 6 football cards included in the set, including Harvard and Michigan. Here is a link to a CU thread with details of the set and a scan of the Harvard card:

https://forums.collectors.com/messag...&enterthread=y

Yes, familiar with that set. I haven't picked any of them up yet but will get them eventually. They do look cool and you are correct that there are 6 football ones in the set:

Harvard football game
U of Michigan player
U of North Dakota player
Tufts College player
Colgate U football game
Buchtel College player

jeff

Filled that space in my Heisman collection that was only occupied by a lonely '55AA. 1939 Iowa Hawkeyes Yearbook. This will do until I can hunt down a Kinnick auto that I can afford/find.

Great Kinnick photo, Matt! Love it.

Prior to the NFL there were many informal pro leagues out there. Several of them had teams that joined the NFL in 1920. One of these leagues was the New York Pro Football League (NYPFL) that was active in New York during the 1910s.

Here is a photo of the Lancaster Pros / Malleables from around 1911 or so.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/xH...W=w998-h749-no

The Lancaster Pros won the NYPFL title two consecutive years in 1913-1914. However, the most significant thing about this team is that one of the very early African-American pro football players, Henry McDonald, must have played for them occasionally as he is in this photo.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/F7...i=w757-h748-no

Henry McDonald was officially a member of the Rochester Jeffersons but was known to play for other teams when possible to make more $$$$. Later in life he said he only had one racial incident while playing pro football and it was when the Jeffersons were playing the Canton Bulldogs of the Ohio League. Greasy Neale threw him out of bounds and reportedly said "Black is black and white is white and where I come from the two don't mix." McDonald, who was a boxer, confronted Neale and was ready to fight when Jim Thorpe stepped in and told Neale that they were there to play football and to lay off. McDonald said nobody else from Canton bothered him after that.

The Rochester Jeffersons joined the NFL when it started up but by then McDonald had retired.

jeff

Great image and history lesson, Jeff! Thank you.

A year or so ago I picked up the one from my alma mater (West Virginia). It has to be the only golf card I own.

Case from the 1890s
 

From the Strongsville show. Still doing research on the year.

Angyale

I've been picking up obscure yearbooks to obtain photos of pre war uniforms and players. I love when I run across something like this. This is from a 1941 North Texas Yearbook.

Ted Koonce played for North Texas then served in the Air Force during the war. He held the rank of 1st Lieutenant and was awarded the Distinguished Flying Cross with 3 Oak Clusters. Mr. Koonce passed away in 2008.

Great posts everyone. Jeff, I'd read about McDonald before, amazing to see photos to accompany the story.

25 grange shotwell blank backs
 

Just picked these up recently. Extremely rare

Nice Shotwell pickups! I've always liked these sets.

There's some images of others earlier in this thread if you want to check them out.

jeff

Pop Warner & Winchester Osgood
 

Well, I got the era right, its from 1892. But not from Case - its from Cornell. I'm not complaining, however, as it has a first year pic of Pop Warner in it along with another College Football Hofer, Winchester Osgood.

Angyale

That's a historic photo and a great pick-up.

+1000

Incredible piece! Congrats.

jeff

Have you seen all THREE Grange's, Carl? :cool:

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/mA...k=w861-h612-no

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/27...U=w535-h754-no

jeff

Hey guys,

When I acquired the Gelbert estate last year there was an old hairbrush included in the lot. I knew it was some sort of football award based on the center emblem ("UofP 1896"). However it was so nasty I just tossed it aside and thought nothing of it. It sat in my desk drawer for at least a month or so when my wife saw it one day and said the metal looked liked tarnished silver. Knowing absolutely nothing about jewelry, I spent the following weekend polishing it with a cotton ball and Goddard's Silver polish cream. Needless to say the brush is now proudly displayed with my other treasures.

Posted are before and after pics. The inscription along the top are Charles Gelbert's initials (CSGJr.) and along the bottom is his position that year (Left Half Back).

Mark

http://i470.photobucket.com/albums/r...ds/image_2.jpg

http://i470.photobucket.com/albums/r...ds/image_3.jpg

http://i470.photobucket.com/albums/r...ds/image_4.jpg

Nice item! I just googled him - an early pro player as well - he should have been in the Mayo set.

Thanks John. Penn was not yet at the same caliber of play as Harvard, Yale and Princeton in 1894 - hence their likely omission from the Mayo set. However from 1894-98 they were dominant (arguably second to only Yale).

Gelbert's grandson and I wrote an article regarding Charles Gelbert in the Fall 2015 issue of Gridiron Greats, if interested in learning more about him.

Thanks Mark - I'll add that to my GG back order list.

So do you think Mayo got it right? Harvard, Yale, and Princeton were the top teams? If they had just wanted to include top players instead, was there an All-American team they could have looked at or that didn't exist?

Caspar Whitney (along with Walter Camp) started the "All-American" team selection in 1889. The vast majority of these players were from the Big Three until 1894, when Penn went undefeated and beat Harvard 18-4. In 1894 there were 3 or 4 (depending on which source) Penn All-Americans.

I think Mayo did pretty well overall. They used the 1893 team photos for their cards.

Thanks Mark - great info.

Boy that piece cleaned up nicely, Mark! Great pickup.

I grabbed this commemorative watch last night in Heritage. Gus Welch was Jim Thorpe's roommate at Carlisle, also a member of the 1912 Olympic team, AA QB at Carlisle, and QB for the Canton Bulldogs before going to law school and having a long career as a football/lax coach.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/0y...mM=w87-h500-no

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/aN...Y=w612-h252-no

jeff

Well many years ago I picked up this lineup card that were inserted in the Philadelphia Inqurer from Ron Barksdale. The closest thing to a championship game was the Thanksgiving day game. In 1895, you are correct Penn was a powerhouse
Out scoring opponents 480-24, they were 14-0 and crushed Cornell in this game 46-2! Interestingly enough Wharton (I assume related to the Wharton School of Business) and your buddy Gelbert are pictured on the Penn side of the ball. I wonder why they didn't play Yale. http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/2016...fbd8bd798e.jpg

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/2016...9d5fdb5cec.jpg
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/2016...631bb3ad81.jpghttp://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/2016...4cc4762976.jpg

Carl,

That is a great lineup card. Charles "Buck" Wharton was another Penn All-American in 1895 and 1896. He was inducted into the College Football Hall of Fame in 1963. Below is an 1894 Penn team photo, with Wharton in the back far right.

"I wonder why they didn't play Yale"....Likely because of graduate students playing for Penn.

In 1893 Yale commented after a tightly fought contest that Penn players were "mature married men, age twenty-two to thirty, one with a child eight years old". The Intercollegiate Football Association (where Yale had a heavy influence) made attempts to restrict the use of graduate students at the end of that season, therefore Penn withdrew from the league. In 1894 only six of the eleven Penn starters were students of the College (undergraduates).

Yale didn't play Penn for over thirty years after that 1893 game.

http://i470.photobucket.com/albums/r...fer/image.jpeg
Mark

He looks like a pretty tough customer. That would have been a heck of a game in 1895. Yale (13-0-2) vs. Penn (14-0)....wow !

1894 Penn Photo
 

Mark,

When Win Osgood left Cornell in 1892 he enrolled at Penn in 1893 and 1894 and played football for them. Likely his 6th or 7th year playing college football. Does he appear in your photo?

Eric

Great pickups, Carl and Mark!

Finally snagged this 1905 Rotograph of Fielding Yost.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/Ka...o=w190-h307-no

Love what someone wrote on the front about Yost!

"More Prominent than the President"

jeff

Jeff: That is my favorite photo of Yost. As a huge Michigan collector and fan, you couldn't post a better picture on this forum. Very cool piece. Congrats!

Eric: Osgood is not in that photo, but he was on the 1893 and 1894 Penn teams. Here is another 1894 Penn photo I acquired from the George H. Brooke estate. Brooke is seated in the center, middle row. Osgood is to the left of him.

http://i470.photobucket.com/albums/r...r/image_1.jpeg

Great Penn photo, Mark. That's a beaut.

Also picked up this Dominoe Post Card of the 1905 Yale team that went 10-0.

College HOFer Tom Shevlin is on this PC.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/PZ...=w1116-h712-no

Also have a photo of Shevlin hanging out with football legend Frank Hinkey at a game in 1914.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/kV...0=w659-h766-no

jeff

Jeff,

Two fantastic pieces, congrats. Here is a great short story about Shevlin and Hinkey (from "Big Games" by Michael Bradley):

Back in the early 1900's Tom Shevlin was the best player in all of football. He was big, strong, fast (and extremely rich, even for Ivy League standards). He was also an arrogant brat. One day, he asked Mike Murphy, the longtime Yale trainer, how he compared to Frank Hinkey. Murphy admitted that Shevlin was faster and stronger than Hinkey. And since Shevlin outweighed Hinkey by nearly 50 lbs, he was certainly a more imposing physical specimen than the Yale legend. "Now tell me one more thing," Shevlin said to Murphy, no doubt impressed with the trainer's assessment, "How do I compare to Hinkey as a football player?"
Murphy smiled. "Do you really want me to tell the truth?"
"Sure thing"
"Well, then, Frank Hinkey makes you look like the change from a counterfeit nickel."

That is how good Hinkey was....

That's a great story! We ought to have an entire thread on Mr. Hinkey. By all accounts he was a holy terror on the field even though he only weighed something like 145 pounds when he got to Yale. Just being one of a handful of 4x all-americans in the history of college football tells you all you need to know about him.

Check out this story about his playing days and Yale's rivalry with Harvard.

http://archives.yalealumnimagazine.c.../football.html

jeff

I agree Jeff. It is a shame he has been forgotten over the years.

Pa Corbin's 1888 Yale team photo
 

I was contacted by the Tiffany Co to purchase this large, original 1888 Yale football team photograph from their archives. This team went 13-0 and was untied and unscored upon that year. What makes this piece extra special is that it was acquired from an estate auction of Pa Corbin's grandson. After confirming the provenance with his descendants, this photo was indeed the personal copy of the team's infamous captain. I feel blessed to be the temporary custodian of such a historic piece.

Attached is a pic with my eight year old son.

Mark

http://i470.photobucket.com/albums/r...r/image_2.jpeg

Beautiful piece. I checked here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1888_Y..._football_team That was some season.

Incredible piece, Mark! Congrats.

jeff

Could there be a better exemplar of 19th Century Yale football than Pa Corbin - he out-camps Camp. Great photo and even better photo holder -

Thanks guys. I couldn't agree more Mike. One day these photos will be his, although I'll probably donate a few to the College Football Hall of Fame in Atlanta. Their new museum is fantastic!

I think the old Harper's woodcuts are neat but they don't hold a candle to that photo. A museum quality piece! Congratulations!

Thanks Scott. I never got into the Harper's Weekly Woodcuts. Are the football ones valuable? You have any nice examples?

Hi Mark,
I don't own any of them personally yet but sometime back I was looking into purchasing some football art for my office. I looked at the Bob Peaks Sports Illustrated signed lithos from the '70's (Grange (I owned once & regrettably sold) & Unitas) and came across a website detailing the Harper's woodcuts done by an artist named Remington. I can't find the article now but did find this website (pretty neat). From what I remember, the Harper's prints were valued anywhere from a couple of hundred to a couple of thousand dollars, depending on the size and subject matter. If I find the article again, I'll post it.

Again, congratulations!

http://www.lostcentury.com/#jp-carousel-1357

Very cool. I love the 19th century football artwork published in Leslie and Harper's Weekly. The book 'Lost Century of American Football', featured on the website you posted, is fantastic.

Here is a Pach Bros cabinet photo of the championship 1887 Yale football team. This one is just of the starting eleven, to include Hofers Pa Corbin and George Woodruff.

Thanks for letting me share.

Mark

http://i470.photobucket.com/albums/r...r/image_3.jpeg

Here is some ids on that picture

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/rc...s=w830-h675-no

I believe this is 1886

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/2r...5=w800-h612-no

Thanks Mike. I believe your photo is 1887 too, since Beecher was the captain that year. Interesting to note that Stagg was not a starter for that team.

GREAT Yale photos, guys! Here's their team from 1882. Have never seen a caption for this photo so haven't been able to identify them all. Anyone have one?

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/ep...A=w900-h707-no

jeff

Jeff, you probably have the Cohane book on Yale football - which has 1881 and 1883 - if not I'll post those photos and maybe you can pick out your players from 1882

1881
 

Could you post a copy of the 1881 team photo with IDs? I have a Pach Bros. photo with the central player holding a ball inscribed Champions of 1881 I'd like to know more about. Thanks.
B.ob Ri.char.dson

I don't but sounds like one I need to pick up. Thanks Mike.

jeff

Two pages from Cohane book The Yale Football Story
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/eL...R=w610-h955-no

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/Bo...Y=w616-h955-no

Can't see the pages you posted, Mike. They aren't showing up for me.

jeff

This is weird, nothing I posted yesterday is showing up for others, but I see the pictures just fine - here are links to the images

https://storage.googleapis.com/mjmsports/Cohane%201.jpg

https://storage.googleapis.com/mjmsports/Cohane%202.jpg

https://storage.googleapis.com/mjmsports/Cohane%201.jpg

https://storage.googleapis.com/mjmsports/Cohane%202.jpg

Revmoran,
Thanks for sharing those images. My cabinet photo is nearly the same as the 1881 team photo but with several of the players in different spots. For instance, Camp and Beck have switched positions, as have Tompkins and Storrs. Anyway, I now know who the players are after more than 20 years of being in the dark.

Took a shot at identifying the players in this photo based upon Mike's images he posted. Here is my first cut. Corrections / additional / comments appreciated.

Back Row: ????, Benjamin Bacon, Louis Hull, Knapp, Ray Thompkins, ???, WH Peters, ????
Front Row: Badger, ????, Richards, Henry Twombly, ????

People in the 1881 or 1883 photos that potentially could be in this picture but I can't place them:
Farwell, Storrs, Beck, Lamb, Bertron, McCrary, Terry, Robinson, Hyndman, Cowles

jeff

The only one I might question is your guess on Hull.

(My understanding is you believe Hull to be in the dark shirt with his right arm around Bacon.)

Hull's face seems rounder to me in the 1881 and 1883 photos than your 1882 photo. Outside of that, it does sort of look like him though.

Prewar
 

Here are mine:

Beecher

Beecher

Bronko

Great group of cards. Thanks for sharing.

Thanks for the feedback. Yeah, I see what you mean. I'm not very good at matching faces on pictures so can't really tell.

jeff

Nice cards! I'd like to see the Hinkey and Nagurski next to each other. Made me think of a type collection where the one card of each type was the "best player" in the set - completely subjective and you'd probably want a rule like no duplicating players, but it would be interesting to see what people came up with.

Imperial sized cabinet photos of the 1929 and 1930 World Champion Green Bay Packers. These two team photos are stacked with HOFers and All-Pros ... Lambeau, Blood, Dilweg, Michalske, Hubbard, Lewellen, Herber. Lambeau even played in a game in 1929 so he's listed as a player/coach!

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/qD...A=w756-h561-no

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/oC...=w1118-h777-no

jeff

1886 Yale football
 

Picked up a nice group of 1886 Yale football cabinet photos. I've never seen the second photo before.

http://i470.photobucket.com/albums/r.../1886Yale.jpeg

http://i470.photobucket.com/albums/r...6Yale%201.jpeg

yale
 

see you got the seller to end early. I was concerned with the top photo because Geo. Watkinson's head from Yale's 1885 team photo is superimposed over Hefflefinger's head (highest one in back row, head much larger than the others). Is it cut into the photo or copied that way? The second photo might be 1885 but its missing many of the top players except Gill and it looks like captain Peters? Anyway, nice photos.

Good call..the second photo is from 1885. Stagg is to the left of Peters (captain) and Woodruff is to the right of Gill.

Yes, George Watkinson died from fatigue/malaria immediately after playing the 1886 Yale-Princeton game. Since he was a starter and key player it looks like Pach Bros took his 1885 photo, reversed it and glued it over another player. It was professionally done and was likely a tribute to Watkinson.

yale
 

Thanks for the information. Wonder why they didn't use a sub instead of Heffelfinger ? Also on the 1885 photo looks like Corwin setting on the end of the fence on the right. Looks like the photo could have been taken after practice.

They did use a sub. I think it was William P Graves. Pudge Heffelfinger was not on the 1886 team. He played for Yale from 1888-91.

Here is a cropped pic of an unaltered photo.
http://i470.photobucket.com/albums/r...s/image_1.jpeg

Great snag, Mark! Were these on ebay? Didn't see them. What was the title?

Which player is Camp in the second photo? You said left of the captain. His left or our left? Standing or sitting? I don't see him.

jeff

Thanks Jeff. Camp isn't in either photo. Stagg is to the left of the captain (looking to the right) in the second photo.

It was listed for less than 24 hours. There was an error in the listing so she ended it :-)

yale
 

I seen this photo ID'ed as Heffelfinger, but never thought it really looked like him. Should have known better by comparing the year, would never have guessed Graves. Thanks again for the education, John

Sorry. Stagg, Stagg, Stagg! Typing too fast.

Thanks.

jeff

Picked up a really nice 1889 Pach Bros Yale yearbook. My favorite Yale football team was the 1888 squad with five College Hofers and Walter Camp's first year coaching (although many argue that Mrs. Camp did most of the work). Here are a few senior pics from the yearbook.

George Woodruff
http://i470.photobucket.com/albums/r...s/image_2.jpeg

Charles Gill
http://i470.photobucket.com/albums/r...s/image_4.jpeg

Pa Corbin
http://i470.photobucket.com/albums/r...s/image_3.jpeg

1888 Yale team.
http://i470.photobucket.com/albums/r...s/image_6.jpeg

Fantastic pickup, Mark! Those are really nice. Can you post a picture of the album?

jeff

Thanks Jeff. My wife didn't take a photo of the cover but it was a BIN on Ebay. I got a couple requests for the other team photos.

1888 Yale Crew
http://i470.photobucket.com/albums/r...s/image_5.jpeg

1889 Yale Baseball
http://i470.photobucket.com/albums/r...s/image_7.jpeg

Glad you got that Mark - really great photos - sent me right to eBay and saw another, older Yale book by Pach, but no sports photos - I wonder if they customized which photos went in the book for the buyer.

I think they were Mike. There was a wonderful 1889 Yale SSS yearbook that was auctioned in Feb 2013 (see link below). It contains completely different sports photos despite being from the same year. I wonder how much Pach Bros charged back then?

http://www.invaluable.com/auction-lo...0-c-5bc2f13e67

Mark

They were a great studio - I bet somewhere out there is a catalog or price list. I especially like this Pach Bros. albumin print I bought of Jarvis Field

http://hapmoran.org/wordpress/wp-con...rvis-Field.jpg

I found this in another thread http://www.net54baseball.com/archive...?t-164861.html

Before I get into the album on eBay let me say these are NOT like books and magazines that get "chop shopped". Each individual would order a "standard" book from pach bros but could also customize the books as well. these were made as unique items for specific students with their names engraved on the front. Each page is an albumen cabinet photo (real albumen cabinet photos by the way) with two images glued to a blank cabinet. There are then 2 blank backed cabinet cards that are lightly glued together and tipped into the book with linen. These cabinet photos can easily be separated back to how they were originally produced by the photographer to two blank backed images which can be cut in half to leave two cabinet photos. What is left are two completely original album photos, on their original mounts with the original glue.

I did find this ad in the 1889 Yale Banner, but it doesn't tell us much

https://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5448/3...cc068466_c.jpg

Mike,

The yearbook referred to in that thread is a cheaper version. It seems Pach Bros created those in the late 1890s where lower quality photos were glued onto cardboard pages. Some dealers cut these pages up and sell them off as original photos.

These earlier Pach Bros yearbooks are much nicer. They contain individual cabinet photos which are slid into sleeves for easy removal. The photo quality is top notch. The smaller photos have the Pach Bros stamp along the bottom.

I'm surprised I can't find a website dedicated to the history of Pach Bros. - small collections in the Library of Congress and the Smithsonian, and a nice history here http://dlib.nyu.edu/findingaids/html.../bioghist.html which says:

A dramatic fire on February 16, 1895 completely burned out the Pach studios that were located on the top floor of the buildings at 935 and 937 Broadway. An account in the New York Timess (February 17, 1895, p. 17) stated that there were thirty employees at work in the studio, and twenty patrons sitting for their portraits, when the fire started in the negative retouching room. No lives were lost, though all negatives created in the New York and the college satellite studios from the time of the firm's founding were destroyed.