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-   -   Joe Mauer announces retirement: HOF? Make Your Case: (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=261994)

clydepepper 11-10-2018 03:32 PM

Joe Mauer announces retirement: HOF? Make Your Case:
 
Three Batting Titles, Three Gold Gloves, one MVP

is that enough?


http://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/2...innesota-twins

barrysloate 11-10-2018 03:33 PM

Great player, borderline HOFer. But winning three batting titles as a catcher is extraordinary.

insidethewrapper 11-10-2018 05:18 PM

You mean he didn't announce it at the beginning of the season so he could get all those gifts from every team and say goodbye in every city like Jeter, Rivera and Ortiz did ? I guess he has more class. He will be a Hall of Famer someday in my opinion.

KCRfan1 11-10-2018 05:30 PM

Like it or not, Mauer fits right in the HoF with other catchers who are already there in terms of WAR and JAWS.

BearBailey 11-10-2018 06:44 PM

Itís enough for me, he would get my vote. Passes the eyeball test and has enough WAR as a catcher.

clydepepper 11-10-2018 07:38 PM

I think Yadier Molina will also get in...as will Buster Posey.

Here's a general comparison of their stats, achievements and awards:

MAUER- 15y; 1858g (921 @ c); 6930abs; 2123h; 428dbs; 143hrs; 923rbi, .306/.388/.439; 33% CS; .995
MVP; 3-Time Batting Champ; 5-Time Silver Slugger; 3-Time Gold Glove; 6-Time All-Star

POSEY- 10y; 1144g (886 @ c); 4170abs; 1276h; 246dbs; 133hrs; 635rbi, .306/.375/.465; 33% CS; .993
ROY; MVP; 3-Time WS Champ; Batting Leader; Gold Glove; 6-Time All-Star; 4-Time Silver Slugger

MOLINA- 15y; 1876g (1836 @ c); 6551abs; 1850h; 355dbs; 146hrs; 859rbi; .282/.334/.406; 41% CS; .995
2-Time World Series Champ; 9-Time All-Star; 9-Time Gold Glove; Silver Slugger

SetBuilder 11-11-2018 02:18 AM

No way.

You can't really compare his stats to other catchers in the HOF when less than 50% of his career games were at catcher! He was a kind of hybrid C/1B/DH. To view him as a catcher, he had to play at least 75% or more of his career games at that position, IMO.

He only had one great season (2009). Bad postseason numbers. No WS titles. Barely cracked the 2,000 hit and .300 AVG milestones and had less than 150 HRs.

You want to see a real HOF catcher? Pudge Rodriguez. Now there's a catcher!

KCRfan1 11-11-2018 12:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SetBuilder (Post 1826213)
No way.

You can't really compare his stats to other catchers in the HOF when less than 50% of his career games were at catcher! He was a kind of hybrid C/1B/DH. To view him as a catcher, he had to play at least 75% or more of his career games at that position, IMO.

He only had one great season (2009). Bad postseason numbers. No WS titles. Barely cracked the 2,000 hit and .300 AVG milestones and had less than 150 HRs.

You want to see a real HOF catcher? Pudge Rodriguez. Now there's a catcher!

60% of Mauer's games were in the role of catcher, as were his games played.

I'm not going to compare Mauer to Pudge, as it's an unfair comparison. That's like comparing Jim Rice to Ted Williams or any other great of the game at the same position.

In terms of COMPS, Mauer has a strong case for consideration to the HALL.

To poke the bear a bit, Molina has a HORRIBLE JAWS comp to other catchers all-time. He ranks like 25th or so, and not even close in that category. Basic numbers he stacks up, but the components of the JAWS ranks him very low.

clydepepper 11-11-2018 01:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KCRfan1 (Post 1826297)
60% of Mauer's games were in the role of catcher, as were his games played.

I'm not going to compare Mauer to Pudge, as it's an unfair comparison. That's like comparing Jim Rice to Ted Williams or any other great of the game at the same position.

In terms of COMPS, Mauer has a strong case for consideration to the HALL.

To poke the bear a bit, Molina has a HORRIBLE JAWS comp to other catchers all-time. He ranks like 25th or so, and not even close in that category. Basic numbers he stacks up, but the components of the JAWS ranks him very low.


good to hear from the Department of Redundancy Department again.

KCRfan1 11-11-2018 02:03 PM

Touche Mr. Culpepper!

packs 11-11-2018 02:29 PM

I'd rather have Jorge Posada on my team than Joe Mauer and Posada fell off the ballot after 1 vote. Joe isn't a HOFer in my opinion.

KCRfan1 11-11-2018 03:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by packs (Post 1826326)
I'd rather have Jorge Posada on my team than Joe Mauer and Posada fell off the ballot after 1 vote. Joe isn't a HOFer in my opinion.


I agree. Do you believe too much value is put into WAR and JAWS and the basic stats and eye test are discounted?

nolemmings 11-11-2018 03:45 PM

Then you need to have your eyes tested. Three batting titles--are those stats basic enough for you? How many catchers in MLB history have won ANY batting titles? I believe the answer is 4. How many AL catchers did so who are not named Mauer? Zero.

nolemmings 11-11-2018 04:36 PM

A couple of my favorite Mauer highlights, and then one for fun.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfeJMiuKbf4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oBO2sQnIs9A

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hb_Z2kKYy3Y

SetBuilder 11-11-2018 05:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KCRfan1 (Post 1826297)
60% of Mauer's games were in the role of catcher, as were his games played.

I'm not going to compare Mauer to Pudge, as it's an unfair comparison. That's like comparing Jim Rice to Ted Williams or any other great of the game at the same position.

In terms of COMPS, Mauer has a strong case for consideration to the HALL.

To poke the bear a bit, Molina has a HORRIBLE JAWS comp to other catchers all-time. He ranks like 25th or so, and not even close in that category. Basic numbers he stacks up, but the components of the JAWS ranks him very low.

Where are you getting 60%?

Mauer appeared in 1,858 games.

In 921 of those games, he played catcher (921/1858 = 49.5%).

In 885 of those games, he started the game at catcher (885/1858 = 47.6%).

packs 11-11-2018 07:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nolemmings (Post 1826342)
Then you need to have your eyes tested. Three batting titles--are those stats basic enough for you? How many catchers in MLB history have won ANY batting titles? I believe the answer is 4. How many AL catchers did so who are not named Mauer? Zero.

Three batting titles are basic stats. Posada caught almost twice as many games and was an offensive machine for almost a decade. I don't think either are HOFers but I'd rather have Posada.

KCRfan1 11-11-2018 07:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SetBuilder (Post 1826361)
Where are you getting 60%?

Mauer appeared in 1,858 games.

In 921 of those games, he played catcher (921/1858 = 49.5%).

In 885 of those games, he started the game at catcher (885/1858 = 47.6%).

I didn't account for games as a DH. You are spot on. I have been a total cluster F*** on this thread.

nolemmings 11-11-2018 09:12 PM

Deleted.

sycks22 11-11-2018 09:43 PM

Being a diehard Twins fan I can see it both ways. His first 7 years, first ballot HOFer, his last 9 were average at best. His averages for the last 9 years were .290 avg, 8 hr and 56 for 162 games and he was a first baseman, brutal stats. It's tough to make the playoffs when your 1st baseman has 7-10 hrs with 55 rbi and Verlander said it best "When Joe's up the worst thing that will happen to you is a single to left". I'm leaning towards a veterans committee induction.

glynparson 11-14-2018 12:29 PM

Tough call
 
If you flip his career he probably gets in as it is it will be borderline in my opinion. Id vote for him but i am easy.

Peter_Spaeth 11-15-2018 10:15 PM

Hall of the Very Good, IMO. Posada had significantly more power. Mauer probably hurt by playing in relative obscurity, but he just doesn't move me.

dgo71 11-16-2018 12:47 AM

This is exactly the kind of debate I had imagined would take place the minute he announced his retirement. I think Chase Utley will spark the same kind of debate to a lesser degree. Personally Mauer does not scream Hall of Famer to me, but I can certainly see the case for his enshrinement being made. As someone else mentioned I think he would be more likely to get in through one of the era committees than the writers ballot but I certainly wouldn't be surprised if he goes in one day, and I wouldn't be up in staunch opposition either.

KMayUSA6060 11-16-2018 08:03 AM

How the hell are we putting Mauer and Posada in the same discussion, with some people putting Posada above Mauer?

Mauer won 3 batting titles, WAS A LEAGUE MVP, 6x All Star, amassed 2123 hits in 15 years (1858 games), and played for the same team his entire career - something that will be taken into consideration with today's free agency climate.

Is Posada as highly thought of without the Yankees component? 500 less hits with 2 additional seasons, I don't consider him to have significant "power" with 275 HRs, and I think he largely benefited from the NYY factor in regards to his popularity.

I like Posada, and he was a good catcher, but hitting the ball is one of the biggest parts of the game and Mauer was consistently one of the best throughout his career. It's not the Hall of HRs.

I think Mauer is a late-ballot Hall of Famer.

SetBuilder 11-16-2018 08:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KMayUSA6060 (Post 1827375)
How the hell are we putting Mauer and Posada in the same discussion, with some people putting Posada above Mauer?

Mauer won 3 batting titles, WAS A LEAGUE MVP, 6x All Star, amassed 2123 hits in 15 years (1858 games), and played for the same team his entire career - something that will be taken into consideration with today's free agency climate.

Is Posada as highly thought of without the Yankees component? 500 less hits with 2 additional seasons, I don't consider him to have significant "power" with 275 HRs, and I think he largely benefited from the NYY factor in regards to his popularity.

I like Posada, and he was a good catcher, but hitting the ball is one of the biggest parts of the game and Mauer was consistently one of the best throughout his career. It's not the Hall of HRs.

I think Mauer is a late-ballot Hall of Famer.

His stats don't jump out as being truly great. Not enough for the Hall.

He had one Hall of Fame worthy season, in 2009. He was the MVP that year and won the batting title with an impressive .365/.444/.587.

He had another noteworthy season, in 2006, with an elite .347 average. Another batting title.

His third batting title came in 2008, when he hit .328. He won that batting title by sheer luck with such a low average. A well earned batting title is usually in the .330 range, pushing .340.

The rest of his career was average.

Average players shouldn't make the Hall of Fame.

If Larry Walker doesn't make the HOF, Mauer shouldn't either. Walker had better career stats and also won 1 MVP and 3 batting titles.

nolemmings 11-16-2018 10:14 AM

"His third batting title came in 2008, when he hit .328. He won that batting title by sheer luck with such a low average."

What a moronic statement. Sheer luck my ass. He finished second in offensive WAR and fourth in MVP, was that by luck? Was that well deserved? No one else was hurt--he finished ahead of Mags, Ichiro, Hamilton and the rest who won in other years.

Again, he was a catcher. ZERO catchers have won a batting title in the A.L. except for Mauer. Posey, Hargrave and Lombardi are the only other catchers to ever win one, with Lombardi doing it twice. BTW, Mauer also finished second, third and fourth in BA in other seasons. And his .365 avg in 2009 has not been topped since-- in either league.

I am a lifelong Yankee fan and Posada was one of my favorite players, but the comparison with Mauer isn't even close. One can only wonder how many HRs Joe would have hit in New York if he was able to develop his swing for the short porch and not the tall Hefty Bag wall of the Metrodome, which led him to focus on driving the ball the other way. He had nearly 50 more doubles and 20 more triples than Jorge, so he was hardly powerless. And the difference in defense between the two was substantial.

I predict Joe will go into the HOF on the second or third try.

nolemmings 11-16-2018 10:49 AM

Kudos
 
Forgot to mention: Congrats to Joe and Maddie Mauer, who celebrate the birth of their third child and first son, Charles Joseph Mauer. Fantastic post-season award for Joe!

packs 11-16-2018 11:09 AM

You keep talking about his batting titles but he won those within the first 5 seasons of his career. He was pretty pedestrian after even with a few more 300 seasons. I don't think his peak surpassed Nomar's and Nomar is nowhere near the HOF. Nomar won 2 batting titles while playing a premium position. It was equally rare for Nomar to win an AL title as a shortstop. Only A-rod had won at the position before, unless I'm mistaken.

But Nomar isn't a serious contender for the HOF. Joe Mauer was a catcher. What he did with his bat was unusual but except for one single season, never otherworldly.

Piazza changed the position with his bat, as did Campanella and Pudge. Joe Mauer had a nice average but still only hit 306 over his career. I don't see that getting you into the HOF.

SetBuilder 11-16-2018 11:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nolemmings (Post 1827400)

Again, he was a catcher.

Mauer was a fake catcher. More than half of his games were at positions other than catcher.

Quote:

Originally Posted by nolemmings (Post 1827400)

And his .365 avg in 2009 has not been topped since-- in either league.

It hasn't even been 10 years. Not saying .365 isn't impressive, but it doesn't get him in the Hall.

Pat R 11-16-2018 11:17 AM

1 Attachment(s)
All the debate and no cards.

Here are a few of his T206 rookie cards.
Attachment 334270

nolemmings 11-16-2018 12:38 PM

"Mauer was a fake catcher. More than half of his games were at positions other than catcher."

More idiocy. He put up his numbers as a catcher. He could have been hit by a bus after the 2010 season and we would be talking about his numbers as a catcher. Had he put up his "pedestrian" remaining seasons as a catcher he still would have shone as a catcher. A real one-- gold glover and defensive stud who could throw out baserunners and frame pitches; cf. Jorge Posada.

Ernie Banks played fewer games at shortstop than at 1b, although he won 2 MVPs and was an All-Star in eight seasons at short. Is he a HOF first baseman?

gopherfan 11-18-2018 11:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by glynparson (Post 1826968)
If you flip his career he probably gets in as it is it will be borderline in my opinion. Id vote for him but i am easy.

If you flip his career, all you get is the same arguments but the added PED questions. It has never been questioned f Joe took PED's, but if you flip the career, they would be everywhere.

I am a huge Mauer fan, and I would love to see him in the HOF. I think he is borderline. If he doesn't suffer from the concussions and stays at catcher, he is first ballot. As it stands, I am not sure. Think of what could have been if he had stayed injury free.

the 'stache 11-20-2018 01:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SetBuilder (Post 1827378)
His third batting title came in 2008, when he hit .328. He won that batting title by sheer luck with such a low average.

I'm sorry, but this statement is really ignorant. Hey, Carl Yastrzemski won the batting title in 1968 hitting .301 a year after he won the Triple Crown. Just luck, right?

Forget the fact that he was the only man in the entire American League to hit .300. The second place finisher, Danny Carter, hit .290.

Maybe Mauer's .328 AVG was a bit low because the pitching in the AL that year was that good?

Christian Yelich won the batting title this year hitting .326. He was lucky, too, right? Nevermind he was two home runs, and 1 RBI shy of the first Triple Crown in the National League in over 80 years!

Context is needed in evaluating statistics. Clearly you don't get it.

packs 11-20-2018 08:19 AM

I think there is room for saying some people do have bad luck sometimes. Posada hit 338 in 2007 but he happened to do that while Magglio Ordonez inexplicably hit 363. If Posada won that title, would he be a HOFer?

nolemmings 11-20-2018 09:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by packs (Post 1828402)
I think there is room for saying some people do have bad luck sometimes. Posada hit 338 in 2007 but he happened to do that while Magglio Ordonez inexplicably hit 363. If Posada won that title, would he be a HOFer?

Posada finished fourth that year in BA, so Ordonez was not his only "bad luck". Ordonez is also a lifetime .300 hitter, making his 2007 season not so inexplicable. What is far more inexplicable is Posada's .338 average--the only season he topped even .290 and 65 points higher than his lifetime BA. Had anyone else finished second to him that year, they would have a far better argument for bad luck. In contrast, Mauer hitting anywhere over .300 is pretty "explicable".

packs 11-20-2018 10:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nolemmings (Post 1828430)
Posada finished fourth that year in BA, so Ordonez was not his only "bad luck". Ordonez is also a lifetime .300 hitter, making his 2007 season not so inexplicable. What is far more inexplicable is Posada's .338 average--the only season he topped even .290 and 65 points higher than his lifetime BA. Had anyone else finished second to him that year, they would have a far better argument for bad luck. In contrast, Mauer hitting anywhere over .300 is pretty "explicable".

Hold yourself to your own standards though. Ordonez hit 43 points higher than he'd ever hit before that year too. And answer the question: if Posada lucks out on a batting title in 2007, is he a HOFer?

nolemmings 11-20-2018 12:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by packs (Post 1828464)
Hold yourself to your own standards though. Ordonez hit 43 points higher than he'd ever hit before that year too. And answer the question: if Posada lucks out on a batting title in 2007, is he a HOFer?

The question is pointless, because he was nowhere near the batting title. He finished fourth. Shave another twenty points off of Mags' BA and he still finished ahead of Posada's one-year wonder. And did I mention, that would still leave Posada fourth, and more than ten points behind #2 Ichiro.

So to flip the question, if Mauer leapfrogs over not three players (like Posada) but one in 2013 and two in 2010, then he has five batting titles. Would that be enough for you to consider him a HOFer?

Despite what my posts might suggest, I do not like even somewhat dissing Jorge Posada, who was one of my favorite players for the greatest sports franchise in the USA. But he isn't even the best Yankee catcher not in the HOF-- that would be the Captain--and an argument can be made that he was no better than Ellie Howard either, who won an MVP and who could play the position. Without even crunching other catcher careers, it is easy to say Posada was not as good as Ted Simmons, and really was not better than Lance Parrish. So no, he is not a HOFer.

packs 11-20-2018 01:19 PM

I guess the issue here is that I don't see so much separation between the HOF cases for Mauer and Posada. They were both able to do unique things with their bats at the position. So, if you think Mauer winning batting titles makes him a HOF catcher, I'd also call the best offensive catcher of his era (Posada) a HOFer too. The only catchers with bats to match were Pudge and Piazza, both known cheaters.

I only brought up 2007 because Posada put up a high average as a catcher and didn't win. But even if he did I don't think that makes him more of a HOFer than he already was. Whereas you might say "no one has done this before" in terms of Mauer's batting titles, I would say "no one hit like" in terms of Posada's bat.

nolemmings 11-20-2018 02:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by packs (Post 1828495)
Whereas you might say "no one has done this before" in terms of Mauer's batting titles, I would say "no one hit like" in terms of Posada's bat.

Huh? Look at Lance Parrish's numbers, as but one example. A few more RBI than Posada and nearly 50 more HR, playing fewer seasons. More recently, Brian McCann's numbers are going to end up around the same as Posada. The words "no one hit like Posada" are pretty laughable.

Jorge finished with top-ten numbers in OB% OPS+, Doubles and BB. He had 4 seasons among the leaders in OB%, never higher than third. Mauer had 7 such seasons, twice leading the league. Posada had a 6th and 10th place finish in OPS+. Mauer had 4 top-ten finishes, including first place. Jorge finished in the top-ten in walks three times--same as Mauer. So even these more non-traditional categories--the only ones where Posada's name appears, do not show him to be all that remarkable.

packs 11-20-2018 03:22 PM

Is it laughable? Parish's career overlapped with Posada's for exactly 1 game. McCann's career began while Posada was 33 years old. I don't see what either has to do with Posada's reign as the best hitting catcher in his league (minus a cheating Pudge). There aren't too many players who were the premiere offensive player at their position for a decade that aren't in the HOF. Posada fits that bill. Between 1998 and 2007, who was better?

nolemmings 11-20-2018 04:42 PM

Oh, I misunderstood your position. You're using what I call the Bill Freehan argument; i.e., I was the best catcher during the ten years I pick out and at a time when the league was either down at my position or there were a few guys with good years but nothing as consistent as me, never mind that my seasonal or "era" numbers never approach anything noteworthy. You added a twist, claiming he's not even the best unless you throw out cheaters. Got it.

But are you saying that Mauer doing what no AL catcher ever did, thrice, is essentially no better than how Posada was the most consistent hitter at his position over a specific ten-year period (leaving aside one other cheater and the fact that the last three years of that span both Mauer and VMart were better hitters and that even Jason Varitek put up similar numbers as Jorge over another three year or so stretch). I don't think so. But hey, you've inspired me to take another look at my Bill Freehan cards, who BTW, was also a better catcher than Posada.

packs 11-20-2018 04:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nolemmings (Post 1828568)
Oh, I misunderstood your position. You're using what I call the Bill Freehan argument; i.e., I was the best catcher during the ten years I pick out and at a time when the league was either down at my position or there were a few guys with good years but nothing as consistent as me, never mind that my seasonal or "era" numbers never approach anything noteworthy. You added a twist, claiming he's not even the best unless you throw out cheaters. Got it.

But are you saying that Mauer doing what no AL catcher ever did, thrice, is essentially no better than how Posada was the most consistent hitter at his position over a specific ten-year period (leaving aside one other cheater and the fact that the last three years of that span both Mauer and VMart were better hitters and that even Jason Varitek put up similar numbers as Jorge over another three year or so stretch). I don't think so. But hey, you've inspired me to take another look at my Bill Freehan cards, who BTW, was also a better catcher than Posada.

Can a person help when they're alive? Are you of the opinion that a guy cheating to play well and a guy playing well naturally are on equal footing? Is a decade not enough time to show you're better than the people around you?

nolemmings 11-20-2018 04:58 PM

I don't know. Ask Bill Freehan.

packs 11-20-2018 05:03 PM

I will send him an e-mail now.

I don’t discount what you’re saying but you’re not allowing for any weaknesses in Mauer’s career to count against him. We’re talking about a guy (Posada) who caught almost twice as many games as the other.

howard38 11-20-2018 05:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by packs (Post 1828495)
I guess the issue here is that I don't see so much separation between the HOF cases for Mauer and Posada. They were both able to do unique things with their bats at the position. So, if you think Mauer winning batting titles makes him a HOF catcher, I'd also call the best offensive catcher of his era (Posada) a HOFer too. The only catchers with bats to match were Pudge and Piazza, both known cheaters.

I only brought up 2007 because Posada put up a high average as a catcher and didn't win. But even if he did I don't think that makes him more of a HOFer than he already was. Whereas you might say "no one has done this before" in terms of Mauer's batting titles, I would say "no one hit like" in terms of Posada's bat.

There is no need to bring up Pudge's "cheating". Posada was the better hitter anyway w/an enormous fifty point edge in OPS.

packs 11-20-2018 06:25 PM

He has a higher OPS than Freehan, Howard and Munson too.

nolemmings 11-20-2018 07:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by howard38 (Post 1828585)
There is no need to bring up Pudge's "cheating". Posada was the better hitter anyway w/an enormous fifty point edge in OPS.


If you honestly believe Jorge Posada was a better hitter than Ivan Rodriguez, I would simply ask: When's the last time you changed the bong water?

howard38 11-20-2018 09:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nolemmings (Post 1828614)
If you honestly believe Jorge Posada was a better hitter than Ivan Rodriguez, I would simply ask: When's the last time you changed the bong water?

Never. I was a bambu guy in my smoking days.

dgo71 11-20-2018 10:10 PM

I'm just wondering when it became "known" that Piazza was a user. Only thing I ever heard was some beat writer saying he had back acne once. Did he fail a test or get implicated in a Mitchell Report-esque list that I'm unaware of?

the 'stache 11-21-2018 01:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by packs (Post 1828402)
I think there is room for saying some people do have bad luck sometimes. Posada hit 338 in 2007 but he happened to do that while Magglio Ordonez inexplicably hit 363. If Posada won that title, would he be a HOFer?

Nope.

Cecil Cooper hit .352 in 1980. Normally, that's a good bet to win the batting title. Unfortunately for him, George Brett decided to hit .390.

RedlegsFan 01-05-2019 09:02 PM

It doesnít even matter anymore. Just let everyone in. Or heck, draw names, and iím sure there will be plenty of excuses to justify putting them into Cooperstown.

So yes, Mauer gets my vote.


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