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-   -   1990 Frank Thomas No Name On Front RC (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=241817)

Klrdds 07-02-2017 12:54 PM

1990 Frank Thomas No Name On Front RC
 
I normally post on the Autograph thread on Net 54, but I also collect baseball cards ( I have a few hundred thousand cards going back to Old Judge and Topps complete sets to 1959 and many graded and ungraded RCs) but I admit my knowledge is average at best about trends in card prices .
This is why I am coming here to see if someone can offer their opinion about the 1990 Frank Thomas no name on front RC. I have this card ( PSA 7.5 )which I purchased before his HoF induction and I have been watching its price increase over time. I know nothing is a guarantee BUT can anyone give an opinion about this card in general and its value ceiling ?
Is it on a bubble that could burst or do people believe it will continue to rise?
I realize that a "sudden " find of these would dramatically affect the value of this card but considering that after 27 years there hasn't been a find I would be content assuming that all of these cards have been found, but possibly not graded.

Thanks for any opinions.

Peter_Spaeth 07-02-2017 02:44 PM

As I don't see him in the top tier of popular all time greats, I would not think at this point there is that much upside relative to the market in general, but that's just an off the cuff opinion.

drcy 07-02-2017 10:50 PM

All I can say is the card has been a celebrated error/variation for many years-- over 20--, so it's not a recent flash in the pan. I'm sure it will be a popular rarity for years to come. There are longtime desirable 1980s rare variations of common players, so that he is 'only a second tier' HOFer isn't that important. The T206 Sherry Magee error is probably the most desirable error card of all time and obviously Macgee isn't a HOFer . . . It also may be that there was so much over produced stuff in the late 1980s/early 1990s that make the Thomas NNOF rarity so special.

pokerplyr80 07-03-2017 09:51 AM

I started collecting in that era and have always wanted one. If I had to guess I'd say there is still upside potential. Thomas and griffey were the two top players for quite a while, even if he won't be remembered as an all time great. I'm a buyer if you decide to sell yours.

ls7plus 07-04-2017 04:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drcy (Post 1676888)
All I can say is the card has been a celebrated error/variation for many years-- over 20--, so it's not a recent flash in the pan. I'm sure it will be a popular rarity for years to come. There are longtime desirable 1980s rare variations of common players, so that he is 'only a second tier' HOFer isn't that important. The T206 Sherry Magee error is probably the most desirable error card of all time and obviously Macgee isn't a HOFer . . . It also may be that there was so much over produced stuff in the late 1980s/early 1990s that make the Thomas NNOF rarity so special.

+1, although with 521 HR's, lifetime average over .300, and no steroid use, I would certainly rank him in the upper middle echelon of HOF'ers. I bought that card at the right time in the early '90's and believe it is a reasonably good candidate for consistent appreciation in value. When he was in his 20's, Bill James credited him with having a shot at becoming one of the 3-4 best hitters of all time, based on the combination of tremendous power to all fields, high average, and enormous walk totals (.419 OBP for his career, one of the very highest ever for a right-handed hitter). He went through a nasty divorce in the midst of those years, however, which led to two off years, and in his 30's downslide, the reflexes were beginning to go, and he had to cheat on the middle-in fastball, leaving him vulnerable to the outside pitch he used to hit with such great power to RCF. Through this style, he succeeded in maintaining the HR totals for quite awhile, but causing the batting average to decrease. I would certainly hang on to a 7.5 NrMt+.

May your collecting be joyful,

Larry

Zach Wheat 07-04-2017 06:45 AM

Larry,

Nice analysis. Are you a baseball scout on the side? :). I tend to agree with Larry here. He is generally spot on.....nice card to keep.

Good luck either way.

Z

jp1216 07-04-2017 08:27 AM

http://www.billripken.com/bucket/nnofsheet.jpg

Unlike Magie/Magee - I don't consider this an 'error' card. It's a print defect. A rare variation, but not an error. Found this picture online. Someone correctly pieced together other cards with print defects and their placement on the sheet. Lots of fakes out there - be careful.

Bretsky 07-04-2017 10:01 AM

Personally I see this card as having a strong demand as people are slowly switching from modern to vintage (even though I wouldn't classify this as vintage). I would recommend holding onto the card as I think this demand will only continue.

HOFrookies 07-04-2017 02:22 PM

I'm assuming you are NOT the one selling this on eBay through pwcc?:

http://m.ebay.com/itm/1990-Topps-Fra...53.m1438.l2649

Seems to be a real healthy price already..

Klrdds 07-04-2017 03:52 PM

No .
That is NOT my card .
My card is still tucked nicely away in my safe .

ls7plus 07-05-2017 06:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zach Wheat (Post 1677244)
Larry,

Nice analysis. Are you a baseball scout on the side? :). I tend to agree with Larry here. He is generally spot on.....nice card to keep.

Good luck either way.

Z

Thanks so much--I truly appreciate the compliment. I have lived and breathed baseball since I was eleven years old in the early '60's, playing fast pitch hardball in both Dearborn and Detroit summer leagues through my teens with a number of teammates that went on to play in college; high school ball; and over-30 fast pitch hardball in my early to mid-forties in the '90's (a pretty decent league that had a nice mix of good high school players, former college players, and even three former pros. As I tell my wife (who hates baseball, by the way), it's hard to tell where baseball leaves off and I begin, and vice versa!

Best wishes to all,

Larry

Peter_Spaeth 07-05-2017 07:06 PM

Top five nickname.

ALR-bishop 07-08-2017 12:07 PM

Topps 1990 Cards Missing Black
 
Jon showed a graph above that attempts to explain how the black ink on 10 cards in the set got eliminated on a few examples. The Thomas being the most prominent.

There is a long running thread on CU that expands on that theory

https://forums.collectors.com/discus...-my-theory/p19

http://i1267.photobucket.com/albums/...539/img252.jpg

http://i1267.photobucket.com/albums/...psbe3acf4f.jpg

dictoresno 07-10-2017 01:08 AM

Just noticed the other day that PSA's price guide for the NNOF went from $40,000 for the gem mint 10 up to $50,000.

Same day my 85 McGwire gem mint 10 went from $700 to $750 lol.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

ls7plus 07-12-2017 11:19 PM

PSA 7.5 just went for $5100 in a PWCC auction--wasn't your copy, was it?

Best wishes,

Larry

Klrdds 07-13-2017 08:40 AM

No it was not mine. Mine is still in my collection and in my safe.

ALR-bishop 07-13-2017 09:37 AM

I hope you guys are right about these prices because the one above set me back $350, and at the time I bought it thought it was a ridiculous price

The second one was only $2.50 :)

Is anyone here working on a full set of the cards shown in the diagram above. I am not but ended up with one of them by accident

irv 07-13-2017 09:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ALR-bishop (Post 1680417)
I hope you guys are right about these prices because the one above set me back $350, and at the time I bought it thought it was a ridiculous price

The second one was only $2.50 :)

Is anyone here working on a full set of the cards shown in the diagram above. I am not but ended up with one of them by accident

Based on the price the 7.5 received, I'd say your $350 was a great investment, Al.

I assume the $5,100 is a new record for this card?

Klrdds 07-13-2017 11:46 AM

I would believe this would be close to a record for this grade , but info on sales is not readily available on this card. I know PSA only lists 8 or higher on its site. I was told by an AH last month that they felt the 7 and 7.5 grades were undervalued, and we could reserve mine at $5500 with an EV of 6K to 7K.

Klrdds 07-13-2017 12:50 PM

Interesting to note is that a BGS 8 sold for $4285 last week . I would have expected it to go higher especially after now seeing the PSA 7.5 sell for what it did. Is there that much of a discrepancy between PSA and the rest of the grading companies ?

ls7plus 07-13-2017 01:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Klrdds (Post 1680494)
Interesting to note is that a BGS 8 sold for $4285 last week . I would have expected it to go higher especially after now seeing the PSA 7.5 sell for what it did. Is there that much of a discrepancy between PSA and the rest of the grading companies ?

Just speaking personally, I would not and have never bought a BGS-graded card. But a lot would also depend on how that card was sold--ebay buy it now? Auction house, major or minor? PWCC, despite all of the aired grievances against it here probably has the largest following on ebay.

Congrats on hanging on tight to yours,

Larry

Sierra79 07-13-2017 02:08 PM

Just came across this thread. I really think that the NNOF Thomas, along with a maybe 2 to 3 other cards from the junk wax era, have the potential to increase dramatically in value over the next 10 to 15 years. Misprint or error, it doesn't really matter. Just like the upside flying Jenny stamp or the 3 legged buffalo nickel (had to throw out some non card references), this card has a lot going for it ; initial mystery, hype, a HOFER's RC card, and unintentional scarcity. It doesn't matter if Thomas isn't in the same tier as Ruth, Mantle, Ripken, etc. When was the last time a rookie card of a HOFer came along (before the advent of 1/1's and manufactured SP's), and had such a short overall print run.

I think the true gems of the junk wax era (and there aren't many) have a lot more upside potential than most would probably think. First, like the Thomas NNOF, they are truly juxtaposed against an era of immense overproduction. Secondly, we are a little over that 25 year mark when traditionally the next generation of collectors, who have, or will come back to reminisce and collect their childhood...with an increasing amount of dispsible income. Lastly, the junk wax era and the few rarities found within it sits at the tail end of the 20th century. As we move further away from that into God knows what, I think a lot of collectors will give the 80's and 90's a second look in terms of the true rarities, top grade key cards, and perhaps to a lesser extent higher grade and still under valued (IMO) test issues such as Topps Mylar, '85 Topps Mini, etc.

Anyways, just my thoughts on it, but it should be fun to see where things go frome here.

ALR-bishop 07-13-2017 03:02 PM

Modern Rarities
 
Wish this guy had done better than he did


http://i1267.photobucket.com/albums/...ps938c32ea.jpg

Sierra79 07-13-2017 03:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ALR-bishop (Post 1680541)
Wish this guy had done better than he did


http://i1267.photobucket.com/albums/...ps938c32ea.jpg

Cool variation though.

orly57 07-13-2017 10:01 PM

This was one of the greatest errors/misprints of my youth. Just reading this thread made me want to buy one...until I saw the prices on them. I then thought, "these must be obscenely rare if a 7.5 is selling for 5k." But a quick look at the pop reports show there are over 190 graded between psa and sgc (I hate finding bvg pop reports). That's not really rare enough to warrant these prices in my opinion. It's a really cool card, and it's "rare" for FOR THE ERA, but it's a bit steep FOR A POP 200+ card from 1990. But hell, if the market places it at 5k, then that's what it's worth. It's a great card of a great player.

Sierra79 07-14-2017 04:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by orly57 (Post 1680690)
This was one of the greatest errors/misprints of my youth. Just reading this thread made me want to buy one...until I saw the prices on them. I then thought, "these must be obscenely rare if a 7.5 is selling for 5k." But a quick look at the pop reports show there are over 190 graded between psa and sgc (I hate finding bvg pop reports). That's not really rare enough to warrant these prices in my opinion. It's a really cool card, and it's "rare" for FOR THE ERA, but it's a bit steep FOR A POP 200+ card from 1990. But hell, if the market places it at 5k, then that's what it's worth. It's a great card of a great player.

Not to compare it with the 1952 Topps Mantle (please forgive me baseball card gods), but it is far more rare than that if you go by the pop reports. The Thomas NNOF has a cera in mystic to it that I think will transend the all of the other contemporary RC gem mint 10's any day.

Today a print run of 300 sounds like a lot, but that is in large part because of all of the various products that are being made, multiple layers of parralels, brands, and inserts. In an investment sense, I think a lot of collectors would rather go after one of 'THE' key cards of an entire era versus 1,000's of manufactured 1/1's, which are becoming increasingly watered down and worthless (except largely for key rookies in key products).

ALR-bishop 07-14-2017 08:35 AM

I tend to associate the term rare with something like the 61 Dice cards or 67 Stand Ups. The Thomas card to me is scarce but not rare. Still, if you are a Thomas collector or a master set guy, you have to have it. And if you are registry guy you might pay a big premium to get it in higher grade

I am not a print guy but wonder if the card can be easily faked, and if so, how many of those are out there. Have there been any reprints of it and if so are they well marked as such ? The related cards on the sheet ought to show up in similar numbers. Do they ? ( I get that some of them would be harder to spot)

irv 07-14-2017 08:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ALR-bishop (Post 1680749)
I tend to associate the term rare with something like the 61 Dice cards or 67 Stand Ups. The Thomas card to me is scarce but not rare. Still, if you are a Thomas collector or a master set guy, you have to have it. And if you are registry guy you might pay a big premium to get it in higher grade

I am not a print guy but wonder if the card can be easily faked, and is so, how many of those are out there. Have there been any reprints of it and if so are they well marked as such ? The related cards on the sheet ought to show up in similar numbers. Do they ? ( I get that some of them would be harder to spot)

I found this one yesterday searching around. The seller is selling it as RP as he said it doesn't feel quite right to him.
I looked quickly and seen no RP designation anywhere?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1990-Topps-4...QAAOSw7PJZZrqY

EDIT: What packs/sets/boxes were these NNOF cards from or were they randomly spread about?

Sierra79 07-14-2017 01:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by irv (Post 1680754)
I found this one yesterday searching around. The seller is selling it as RP as he said it doesn't feel quite right to him.
I looked quickly and seen no RP designation anywhere?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1990-Topps-4...QAAOSw7PJZZrqY

EDIT: What packs/sets/boxes were these NNOF cards from or were they randomly spread about?

Scarce, rare, or whatever the term, there are very few when compared the print runs of most vintage cards. On top of that, most of the cards of that era sit in factory sealed cases or monster boxes. It doesn't suprise me that it has reached these levels.

As far as the counterfeiting is concerned I've heard of everything from painting over the blue box (which doesn't hide the gaps in the black border lines) to taking blank front Thomas cards and reprinting over them (wich wouldn't hold up under magnification). Bottom line is I would stay away from any raw NNOF Thomas's, unless you don't mind having to open up cases over a fake card.
I know Topps did a reprint or two but those were glossy and had the full black lines if I remember correctly.

Sierra79 07-14-2017 01:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by irv (Post 1680754)
I looked quickly and seen no RP designation anywhere?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1990-Topps-4...QAAOSw7PJZZrqY

EDIT: What packs/sets/boxes were these NNOF cards from or were they randomly spread about?

It's an insanely overpriced reprint by Topps. Notice the black lines continue around the card's borders without disruption. The real one is missing portions of the black lines. Topps did that with the reprint to keep people from counterfeiting the card.

irv 07-14-2017 08:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sierra79 (Post 1680887)
It's an insanely overpriced reprint by Topps. Notice the black lines continue around the card's borders without disruption. The real one is missing portions of the black lines. Topps did that with the reprint to keep people from counterfeiting the card.

Thanks Scott. That is good to know. :)

jimjim 07-16-2017 01:44 PM

Has anyone figured out how these cards were packed out? Rack packs, wax packs, vending?

Sierra79 07-16-2017 08:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimjim (Post 1681501)
Has anyone figured out how these cards were packed out? Rack packs, wax packs, vending?

From what I've read and heard from others, they were distributed via wax packs in the northeast and possibly midwest and California. Early on I heard of the christmas factory set, but that sounds like it was debunked.

Of course, I never pulled one, and all of the 'sightings' from other collectors add to the mystery of how exactly these were sent out. I have two, one being a poor old BGS 3 that I got a couple of years ago with a nice crease line. I've always thought about the kid who must have pulled it, put it in their pocket, and later on realized what they (or someone else) had.

If anyone actually pulled, or directly knows of someone who pulled one of these ghost, please post your story.

ls7plus 09-25-2017 06:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by orly57 (Post 1680690)
This was one of the greatest errors/misprints of my youth. Just reading this thread made me want to buy one...until I saw the prices on them. I then thought, "these must be obscenely rare if a 7.5 is selling for 5k." But a quick look at the pop reports show there are over 190 graded between psa and sgc (I hate finding bvg pop reports). That's not really rare enough to warrant these prices in my opinion. It's a really cool card, and it's "rare" for FOR THE ERA, but it's a bit steep FOR A POP 200+ card from 1990. But hell, if the market places it at 5k, then that's what it's worth. It's a great card of a great player.

IMHO, Orly, there were a lot of re-submissions in an attempt to get the highest possible grade and the pop report reflects this. Just my opinion, based on the fact that when it came out, it was devastatingly hard to find an example (I finally did in about 1993, paying $400 for an example that would be ExMt without the crease it bears). And I too adored Frank Thomas--the power to all fields in his 20's, the average, the walks--I never saw anyone go from 0 and 2 to three and two so very, very often. I would have adopted him if I could! I think that if you compare the frequency with which this card is seen to a gem mint 10 McGwire rookie (last time I looked--which is some time ago, admittedly--they were in the hundreds also), the McGwire in "10" is seen far more often than the NNOF Thomas in any grade.

So glad you got through Irma ok,

Larry


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