Thoughts on Kaepernick & the national anthem
 

I had a argument last night with my neighbor about Kaepernick not standing for the national anthem. Just wanted to see everyone thoughts here. Maybe just a vote and no posts so we dont get too heated up! lol :eek:

He should remember all our service men and women, civilians who lost their lives for this COUNTRY and FLAG since our Independence so we can have our freedom today. We are not perfect, by any means but it only takes a few and the media to make it worse for all. Im glad he's not starting

114 million dollar arm. Ten cent head. And that was before all of this.

I wonder what his stance is regarding Chip's smoothies and sleep monitors.

I'm most offended that he thinks that I would give two sh*ts what he thinks.

He is engaging in core political speech 100% protected by the First Amendment and anyone who wants to punish him for it needs to go back to school and understand the freedoms that the song represents. He isn't disrespecting the people who defend this country. He is engaging in the activity they fight to protect. Our most precious freedom is the right to be an American Idiot. Voltaire said it best: I Disapprove of What You Say, But I Will Defend to the Death Your Right to Say It

He cares about social issues and seems willing to take a stand which is a hell of a lot more than can be said about most self-centered pampered athletes (and entertainers) just living in the four corners of their personal ego trips.

He's got a right to protest, and that's something we should see as important. While I don't totally agree with what he's saying, there's always room to improve things.

Part of me thinks it's a better thing than blocking highways or burning down the corner store, part of me thinks it's a bit of grandstanding empty gesture. If he donates a big chunk of money to his cause as he's said he will I think that might be more effective.

Steve B

He is using the platform available to him, and knows that something that makes people uncomfortable is going to capture attention. If he just went on Twitter and said I don't like what's happening in America it would have very little impact. I don't think it's an empty gesture, he certainly knows the possible consequences.

welll.......... that's not really true.

The constitution protects you from the tyranny of the govt in regards to speech. It does NOT protect you from consequences of your choices however.

The owner of the team has the right to decide that Kaepernick's choices are detrimental to the team and cut him accordingly. This would not be a free speech violation, merely a business decision.


my response to the poll:


I both think that if I were owner I'd cut him AND that he has the right to protest any way he sees fit. We all have the right to our opinion and to express it anyway we like as long as we don't harm others, but, that being said, we are all bound to face the consequences of the choices we make and are open to any and all criticism of our choices. Freedom of speech is not a free pass to avoid criticism or consequences, it is there to keep the govt from chucking us in jail because we think it sucks.

meh...this has been done before (Mahmoud Abdul-Rauf of the NBA, etc.) as an example, so while he's not necessarily a trailblazing sports/entertainment figure, it is what it is and makes interesting point/counterpoint discussion for those that want to engage in such things.

although I may have my own personal opinions, I'm not going to get further involved w/my commentary, as Adam's well-stated post on the (constitutionally-protected) aspects of this "protest" are dead-on accurate.

DS

It's his right to do it. While he's not free of consequences, he is, however, free to sit during the anthem. Even the NFL said that they encourage players to stand but that they don't require them.

Even if you disagree that he protested, it's tough to say he doesn't have the right to do so.

You can't please everyone and often important stances aren't the popular ones.

^^+1^^ This is my response to the poll also, combination of part of 1 & 2.

If everybody just fell in line with no problems at all, we wouldn't have change for the better. Just because I love my country doesn't mean I think it's without its flaws.

I oppose the action of burning the American flag, but I support someone's right to do it.

sure, it's legal for them to do it, but we are free to think they are scumbags for doing it (and their employer is free to fire them if they think their employee's actions are detrimental to their business)

I think Kaepernick made a mistake with the timing of his actions. If he had been a top notch player, owning the starting QB job and leading his team to the playoffs he would have a lot more leeway. BUT, when you have played poorly, complained about losing the starting job and then do something like this... well let's say it looks kinda like an attention grab.


Jimmy Johnson years ago was asked why a borderline player got released for falling asleep at a film meeting. He said that when you are on the cut line you need to be the first there, last to leave amd you need to keep your mouth shut and do your job the best you can. When the reporter replied "well, if it was Troy Aikman who fell asleep what would you do?" he said "I'd say , "Troy, wake up""

I'm not sure where I said the 49ers wouldn't be within their right to release him, but you're right about the double standard, though.

To disavow his actions is your right, but not standing for the anthem is also his.

nobody is arguing with it being his right (unless the NFL chooses to make it required) my beef is how so many people make wrong first amendment arguments in regards to criticism from others or punishment from his employer. (or they seem to think he has a right to his opinion but we don't have the right to think poorly of him because of said opinion, which by the way wouldn't be the case if a white guy said something that was deemed racist)

True, the First Amendment does not prevent a private enterprise from acting but firing an employee for engaging in an activity that is legal and not in violation of his contract terms would entitle him to sue for the guaranteed balance of his contract.. So, if the team wants to can him and pay his contract they are free to so; he will catch on with another team at the league minimum and potentially be paid to beat the old team.

The argument also misses my point: the activity in question is protected by the specific right that allows the self-righteous to hate on Kaepernick in the first place. Americans don't fight for the right to stand up shut up and conform. Never have. Never will. Absolute ideological conformity is the province of religion and dictatorship. The nazis were very good at getting everyone to shut up and toe the line. Didn't work out so well.

Legalities aside firing him would be an unbelievably stupid maneuver. The league is 80%+ black. Management sending a message that they will tolerate all manner of behavior except black political speech would cripple the team's ability to recruit and sign free agents. Given the team location and market I suspect it would also offend more of the team's fan base than it would appease.

well since others posted comments - i guess ill post too

I wish this fool was on the giants - as a life long giant fan i know how they do business - i dont think ownership would stand for him not standing. i think he would be cut immediately. If LT was still on the team he kick his but in the locker room. Interesting images of SF & NYG teams "standing for our country"



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I wish he was playing the NYG in giant stadium on sunday sept 11 - since the 49ers arent playing on sunday sept 11 i think its a stroke of luck for him, it wouldn't go over well - maybe he should move to syria and see if he can play a game and be a millionaire there. Sure its his AMERICAN right to be an idiot 100% & its everyone else's right to bash him for it.

I voted number 1. I think he is pathetic. He should be protesting the parents of the blacks who haven't obeyed police officers, were criminals and got killed because of their own actions. That is what he should be protesting.

LT
 

Given LT's track record with the law, I would much prefer Kaepernick.

This from an article (two days ago) on LT's latest brush with the law, a drunk driving arrest.

It’s hardly Taylor’s first mugshot. He fell asleep at the wheel on the Garden State Parkway in 1989, failing a breathalyzer test but beating the resulting DUI charges two months later.

Subsequent arrests were for misdemeanor property damage in Honolulu, trying to buy crack cocaine in Florida and South Carolina, falsifying his 1990 income tax returns and failing to pay child support. In 2009 he was arrested for patronizing a 16-year-old prostitute in a Ramapo, New York hotel, ultimately receiving a no-jail sentence after insisting he had no idea of her age. “I don’t card prostitutes,” he later said.

The President has weighed in.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2016...community.html

Those who disagree with Kaepernick's actions are self-righteous? And hate him too? Why do you have to demonize them that way just because your opinion differs? You must have read Saul Alinsky's book, Rules for Radicals, right?

There definitely is a division among military, at least. Some veterans support him, others don't.

So you're saying there's absolutely no difference in the way police (or anyone for that matter) treat white people and, as you so eloquently put it, "the blacks"?

Stick your full name out here and you can continue this debate. thanks...and yes, just as I am white (caucasion but "white" is fine) there are some folks who are black, it's only derogatory if you say it in such a manner. He has a right to do and feel how he wants to just as I do. I actually don't have a problem with his act of doing it but I feel the way I do about it. I hope that makes sense.
Again, I will be happy to continue the discussion with you after you put your name out here...nothing personal at all....

Name fixed. Didn't realize that was such a big deal...

Also, no offense, but since you're white your opinion on whether or not "the blacks" is offensive doesn't matter. You don't get a vote as to the offensiveness of terms that don't apply to you. For example, I don't personally find the name "Redskins" offensive, but since I'm not a Native American, my opinion on the matter means nothing. It's easy to not be offended when you're not a part of the group that is being offended.

All that aside, since it's not really the point, black people continue to face unfair oppression from people in positions of authority, and that was the entire point of Kap's protest. To say the people who were abused by police are at fault because they didn't act a certain way is patently false and a willful blind eye to the fact that racism exists. Obviously I'm not saying this is the case 100% of the time as nothing in life is so easily categorized, but comments like yours, whether it was your intention or not, only help perpetuate the myth that racism is a thing of the past.

Wow! :eek:

What a double standard!?! By that reasoning, since you're not black, you don't get an opinion of whether or not there's a difference in the way police treat white people or black people. Nor do you get any opinion on racism. If Leon doesn't get any vote as to the offensiveness of terms that doesn't apply to him, why do you get a vote about oppression or racism if they don't apply to you???

:rolleyes:

Thanks for putting your name out here. It isn't a big deal but is an important part of our forum, hence the rule in bold letters at the top of every page...though this isn't exactly that, it is the reasoning behind it. (simple accountability)

There is no doubt that racism does exist today. Anyone who doesn't think so is not being honest with themselves. That being said there are more opportunities for everyone today than there ever has been. It is hard to deny that by looking at the President, AG, Supreme Court etc.. etc.....
However, I firmly believe parenting is the biggest issue facing our nation today. If it could be taught and taught and taught it might make a lot of the problems go away.
And if you feel the criminals who got shot by not obeying an officer's command, were only shot because of their color...and not because they disobeyed a command, then that is part of the problem, to me. Let's debate why they were being criminals? (*see my parenting point)

I can guarantee if I didn't obey cops in the past I very well might have ended up dead too. Just as anyone of any color would.

And there is no doubt that it works both ways...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m5S2E26BWoo

1000%...the video is not there for me but my thousand percent is I agree it goes both ways...

Fixed link to video.

Of course that is crazy but there are probably some low life white people teaching their kids the same thing.. I didn't' say parenting was a white or black thing....but it's the biggest thing. We need to teach parenting so kids won't grow up as criminals and can make good choices in life.

Absolutely agreed, Leon. The only reason I posted that is because there some people that think white people can't be discriminated against simply because they're white.

I never said that. But yeah, I'm sure white males have it just as bad as any minority in a country founded by rich, slave-owning white guys. :rolleyes:

As to your comment about a double-standard, acknowledging racism exists in the world isn't an opinion, that's an unfortunate fact. Saying "It's OK to say [insert whatever colloquialism here] because it's not racist" is an opinion. That's the difference. All I'm saying is I hear a lot of people who aren't in the group that's being offended telling other people what they think is offensive and what isn't. Their God-given right to HAVE an opinion doesn't make their opinion valid. If you're trying to decide between the chicken or the fish, are you going to ask a vegan?

Leon, I can totally agree on your point about parenting but I don't think that's actually the debate here. I don't necessarily agree that there are more opportunities in the overall, simply because a few high-ranking positions are occupied by people of color. Sure, those are very powerful positions, but they are still outliers. Look into the general populace of any city in America and tell me opportunities exist equally. Look into the comparison of sentencing to the crime committed between white people and black people and tell me there's equality there. That's what Kaepernick's protest was about. Not the military, not a flag, the idea that equality doesn't exist in the vast majority of this country. Him having millions of dollars doesn't negate his right to empathize with a cause, because he too is an outlier. Brock Turner serves 3 months for raping a girl and there are black men in jail for longer than that for having a small amount of marijuana. If Brock Turner was black do you think he'd be free right now? Ask yourself that honestly.

What if you ask the chef and he happens to be a vegan? Does he not get an opinion because he's vegan? Is he going to tell you, "I don't get an opinion"? Certainly not, but that's what you're saying.

It looks like Megan Rapinoe, female soccer player, kneeled in support of Kaepernick.

Perfectly stated...couldn't agree more

You keep missing that this is not what I'm saying at all. He clearly and obviously has the right to an opinion. I, as a rational person able to take circumstance into consideration, can then determine the validity of the opinion. Again, his right to an opinion doesn't make it relevant. By your logic, you'll get the fish and hate it and blame the guy that's never tried either dish.

If you don't think there are more opportunities today, for minorities, then I guess you just don't get out much. :) It's really not even a debate as much as a rhetorical question. The answer is yes, regardless of what anyone thinks. It is just yes.
If I look into the general populace I see minorities and whites too, being kept down due to the hands that feed them, which allows them to not have to feed themselves. It really is the old adage, "teach a man to fish." I want to help everyone help themselves. And along they way if they need a year or two of financial assistance (to be paid back), I can handle that. As long as I see them doing the right things (the right things being, being a productive individual), then I will help. It takes effort to succeed and most social programs today seem to make it too easy to keep taking the handout.

The more programs there are to help, the more the people they intend to help are hurt. It is common sense. Really, it is, I promise. ;)

I volunteer at the Salvation Army every week and have for 16 yrs running. I council homeless veterans on life skills. We have some pretty interesting classes as my views have always (for many, many years) stayed the same.

well-said, Leon.

+1

I go to a predominately black Baptist church in south Houston. The pastor is black, the youth pastor is black. The pastor has a masters degree in economics and the youth pastor has a doctorates in theology. If you told them they didn't have the same opportunity that a white person has, they would set you straight real quick. Derrick (or anybody else), come on down to the Anderson Road Baptist Church with me next Sunday and spew your lack or opportunities/equality ridiculous nonsense and I have some black brothers (in Christ) that will set you straight real quick. It's a serious invite.

I don't like what he's doing, think he has a right to do it, and have a hard time finding sympathy for a guy who makes $12 million a year playing football. I think Benjamin Watson hit the nail on the head with the letter he wrote after Ferguson.

The president has been so off base on soooooo many topics recently, that I think no one really gives two hoots what he thinks anymore.

Lets try to keep this as "apolitical" as possible, please. I fully understand the political system but if we give our own views it's not quite as political ....at least to me.

Yup, seems totally legit. If you think minorities are provided the generosity, opportunity and second chances that white males receive, you don't get out at all.

Vintagetoppsguy, as much as I appreciate the invite I don't see hopping on a plane for Houston to talk to the two black people you know that are doing well as an accurate barometer for equality. But keep telling yourself everything is fine, that's really all that matters.

Edited to add, are there more opportunities today then...whatever point in history, yes. It was within most of our lifetimes that black men and women couldn't use the same restroom as white people though. So yes, we've come a ways from those days, nobody is arguing that, but making improvements on ideals that should be shamefully embarrassing is hardly the same thing as equality.

life is the result of the choices you make and everything that happens is your fault and to your credit, blaming other people is silly scapegoat nonsense. yes they have the same opportunities, but they have made cultural choices in many communities to ignore those opportunities for the easy way out. Your amusing "safe space" rhetoric makes me sick to my stomach. what lame white bread middle class suburb did you come from to spout such hilariously naive platitudes?

hipster, pandering, white guilt rubbish, every damn thing you've said

Glad you and your white privilege took the high road.

Agree a million % and i wont get started on our fearless leader :rolleyes:

Just from my point of view:

I as well as many people i know are business owners i hire anyone who will make me money. White, black, yellow or blue. I could care less. Only color that matters to most if not all business people is green.

More people need to understand this.