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Posted By: <b>JimH</b><p>What about a discount for "already" graded PSA cards resubmitted for a possible upgrade? How about that for customer service! Maybe they will start charging extra because they have to grade through the holder.<br><br>Jim.Heffron@cox.net

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Posted By: <b>lumberg</b><p>Get with the times! Welcome to capitalism in America - you would try and make an extra buck if you could to. <br /><br />This is a great opportunitity for collectors to get a real assessment of their collections. <br /><br />With price usually comes quality. Sorry if you have to put out a few extra bucks to get an HONEST grade but this is what great companies do to maintain their gold standard. If you want the best, you have to pay for the best.<br /><br />If your sitting on a 9.4 and you got a 9, you're gonna like that 9.5 when it comes in the mail.<br />It's guys like you, though, who are probably sitting on a bunch of 8.6's or 8.7"s and are laughing all the way to the bank with PSA"s generous grade of 9.<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Steve</b><p><br />If your sitting on a 9.4 and you got a 9, you're gonna like that 9.5 when it comes in the mail.<br /><br /><br />Too bad that is impossible.<br /><br />Steve

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Posted By: <b>lumberg</b><p>Are you saying that PSA is not planning on rounded to the nearest 1/2 point? Are they planning on always rounding down? So any borderline 7's or 8's can only drop a half grade? Please explain.

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Posted By: <b>Steve</b><p>No, I am saying that they do not have a 9.5 grade.<br /><br /><br />Steve<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>lumberg</b><p>Thank you - <br />Do you know if psa will grade according to what the card is closer to or what level it reached? In other words say a card is somewhere between 7.5 and 8. If you had to put a number on it say a 7.9. Will they grade it an 8 or a 7.5?<br /><br />In my opinion the card should be an 8 because that is a more honest assessment.

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Posted By: <b>Marty Ogelvie</b><p><P>PSA will not bump a 9 to a 9.5.</P><P>There will be nothing between MINT and GEM MINT.. what would it be anyway... NEARLY GEM MINT??</P><P>an 8.5 is the highest half grade offered by PSA.&nbsp; </P><br><br>martyOgelvie<br />nyyankeecards.com

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Posted By: <b>JimH</b><p>I'm glad I finally got some discussion going. I ask that you stick to basics. It is understood that PSA are not collectors or sellers. That, as far as I know, is not open to public review. PSA controls price (SMR). The prices in the SMR do not reflect what the cards actually sold for (check for the small print in just about any set listing). A card that is raw goes to PSA for grading and PSA is asking the person submitting the card for a value for that card. Then a card is encased by PSA and it has a specific value assigned. Now they take that card which they gave a specific value reference to and are willing to change it at an additional cost to the consumer. It very well may cost the consumer more because that card may fall into a more costly grading service determined by PSA. PSA keeps the cost of submission even if the card does not get a higher grade. Additionally, they have to grade the card through a holder. I ask you, does this pass the smell test? It seems to me that they should offer a reduced cost for cards to be resubmitted as a service to people who are truly collectors and not merchants.<br><br>Jim.Heffron@cox.net

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Posted By: <b>Eric B</b><p>According to PSA, an 8 that is truly an 8.4 will still be an 8. You round down. remember, a 7.9 still was called a 7 because it did not meet the minimum requirements to become an 8.

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Posted By: <b>Steve</b><p>Jim<br /><br /><br /> No one is being forced to resubmit their cards.<br /><br />One the one hand you say PSA should give collectors a discount yet at the same time you want your cards resubmitted so they can be worth more.<br /><br />I am at a loss as to what you truly are trying to say.<br /><br />If you are a collector (not just you, anyone) and wish a more precise grade, by all means do it. If you (again anyone) are a merchant and within your inventory you have cards that you feel could upgrade, again by all means do it.<br /><br /> The former can have cards graded more precise for their registry sets/collections and the latter can have cards again graded more precise that they may be able to sell for a higher price.<br /><br />Again, let me stress no one is being forced to resubmit.<br /><br />A few other things, no card sent in under the resub program will get a lower grade, they will either be bumped .5 or a full point or more for that matter. <br /><br />Cards that are found to be altered or counterfieted/reprints can expect a phone call.<br /><br />Steve<br /><br /><br /><br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Steve</b><p>Then a card is encased by PSA and it has a specific value assigned.<br /><br />////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////<br /><br /><br />I would disagree with that statement. PSA assigns grade, not value.<br /><br />The seller/owner assigns value, the marketplace agrees or disagree.<br /><br />PSA/SGC and so on ask for you to value it only for insurance reasons.<br /><br /><br />Steve<br />

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Posted By: <b>Solomon</b><p>I would assume, any significant card that is already a 7.9 is in an 8 holder. Who is selling incredibly high end 7s and 8s on cards with significant moves in price?<br /><br />For all that people complain about PSA's overgrading - do you really think there are tons of 7.9s out there in 7 holders? <br /><br />The half grades are a cop out - all those really nice 7s (and 8s, etc.) finally have a place, where the grader is bailed out about what to do with the vending card with 70/30 centering. <br /><br />Anyone who things PSA did this out of a sense of "make the hobby better" is deluding themselves. Grading is always going to be subjective. But, in theory, the arguments should now be over a half grade spread, not a full grade. Just like that T206 Lajoie now posted - I think most people would agree it's closer to a 5 than a 7, but not an abortion in a 6 holder. Doesn't that 5.5 grade make a lot of sense?

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Posted By: <b>JimH</b><p>Steve, I expected that response from someone. Reminds this old man of "love it or leave it". Cards that are newly submitted I have little heartburn with. Your observations are valid. But cards that have already been submitted open up all kinds of problems. Just a few of these are: at what price are cards submitted and how can cards be accurately graded through an insert sleeve and holder. If I once submitted a card for 10.00 to be graded, now it could cost me much more to submit that same card possibly getting the same result. If PSA would simply do something for the "old time" loyal customers it would go a long way. After all, rightly or wrongly, we do trust the grade they give and the value they give.<br><br>Jim.Heffron@cox.net

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>I agree with most of what you say on this board. I do disagree somewhat with you saying no one is forcing anyone to resubmit cards to PSA. You are right but if you are playing the Registry game, and PSA knows full well what they are doing, then you risk being overtaken by someone that does resubmit. I agree with Solomon in that this is purely money making on PSA's part (not wrong but not admitted either) and little else. Although I do think they might have come over to SGC's way of thinking and are now agreeing to what SGC has known all along. (I hate it when that happens) Yeah, PSA is helping the hobby. If they are helping the hobby then they would be charging $4-$5 each for resubmissions to cover their costs and not to make more profit....Just my opinion....BTW, I am sure SGC does things for profit too, I have no problem making a profit .... It's the peeing on my leg and telling me it's raining that I don't care for....<br /><br />edited for full disclosure to say that I have submitted to PSA but only use SGC now and SGC is obviously an advertiser.....I still feel the pee though <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>ErlandStevens</b><p>How is this different from any other product improvement? If you buy a car, you would never expect the manufacturer to give you something back if the next model is improved somehow. Anyone who previously sent in cards to PSA got exactly what they paid for - cards graded under the terms outlined by PSA. PSA has now changed their terms (grading scale). While some feel that this move makes PSA look bad, I don't think that SGC or Beckett are beyond doing the same thing. If business is down, you change to try to make it better.

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Posted By: <b>JimH</b><p>Leon, You got it!!!! <br><br>Jim.Heffron@cox.net

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Posted By: <b>lumberg</b><p>This issue may have very legitimate reasons for a law suit. It may require legislation and government intervention.<br />You may say I am full of it but don't be suprised when someday the IRS audits every high end ebayer and classified ad that reads "wanted vintage sports collectibles." <br />So much for the treasure hunting and flea markets - thanks alot PSA!!!

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Posted By: <b>Steve</b><p>Leon that is exactly why I said no one is being forced to resubmit anything. I too dislike the idea of having to pay again. i also mentioned one of the reasons why people just might resubmit (registry)<br /><br />My post was not to proclaim PSA as the greatest, just as an informational piece. It goes without saying that they will make money on this.<br /><br />Thanks God you do agree with most of what i say though lol that is good to know.<br /><br />Hehe.<br /><br />Steve<br />

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Posted By: <b>Eric B</b><p>Lawsuit? On what grounds?<br /><br />Erland made a great analogy. If you purchased a car a few years ago, you got what you paid for. If the manufacturer decided to put XM radios in this year's models, you aren't entitled to an exchange. But if they decide to give uou the XM radio for a discounted price, then take it if you want it.

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Posted By: <b>Steve</b><p>If they are helping the hobby then they would be charging $4-$5 each for resubmissions to cover their costs and not to make more profit.<br /><br /><br /> PSA may be thinking that they are re grading a card that in 9 sells for 10k and in 8 sells for 2K. The spread between the two is great thus they feel those cards should be sent in whatever tier they belong in. Is it right? not for me to decide, but no one grades 2k cards for 5.00 Just like no one sells 250k cards for 100k. Please do not take me for a PSA apollogist&lt;sp&gt; I am simply telling it like it is. Would I love for them to allow me to resubmit any card for 5.00 You bet I would!<br /><br />Steve<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Of course PSA is forcing the hands of collectors. If you don't resubmit your cards you are leaving money on the table. This microcap company is running out of ways to generate income....

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Jeff,<br /><br />Just to warn you, I am resubmitting all my 1955 Topps first. I figured it out 7.94 vs. 7.85--hmmm .09 out of the top 10! How many 8.5s will it take to overtake you? <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />Jim

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>I understand your position of charging again with respect to this new found value. Fine, then PSA should not charge when the bump up doesn't happen. ALSO, these cards that stay in 8 holders (or whatever whole number)could be stigmatized as lower end cards and therefore lose value. IS PSA going to compensate people for that? Sorry, this is indefensible except to make more money...you can say anything you want to but that is what it is.....and I am ok with that but prefer to call it what it is....When a car mfg goes up in price they don't say it's to help consumers....that wouldn't be very good PR....as folks know better......regards

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Posted By: <b>marty</b><p>there are still a few more changes that might come (years from now), if sales fall, what would stop psa and sgc from going to sub-grades?? ya know, surface, edges, maybe a new one "smell" if like bubblegum or wax 9.5, basement and attic 5.0! always choices regardless , i do wish psa would also go to a black insert with new submissions and bumps, would it be anymore of an uproar than what's going on anyhow?

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Posted By: <b>Corey R. Shanus</b><p>"Cards that are found to be altered or counterfieted/reprints can expect a phone call."<br /><br />What happens when the card owner gets that phone call and tells PSA to return the card in the original (graded) holder? Will they?<br />

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Posted By: <b>Steve</b><p> What happens when the card owner gets that phone call and tells PSA to return the card in the original (graded) holder? Will they?<br /><br /><br />How should I know? lol, Perhaps you could call them and ask? I would think no. I would think they would then negotiate a price. What would SGC or GAI or Beckett do? I have no idea. I mean who wants a reprint/counterfiet card? I surely wouldn't. I'd be grateful that they caught it the 2nd time around. <br /><br /><br /><br />Leon, you have no idea what will happen to the straight graded card as I do not either.<br /><br />The value can remain stable too. And if a card is in fact a dog for the grade the market in most cases already did that. If collectors are not worried about the value of their cards or the registry they can keep them the way they are. If they want to sell and get what they feel is a hi end card they can use PSA an attempt a bump. If a certifacate and or placement on some list is their bag they too can play the game. MOI? Going forward I have no problem with the .5 system, I'm just not going to play the resubmit game. If I feel a card is hi end for the grade I'll price it accordingly if I'm selling. Same as I always did when buying. <br /><br />And for the life of me where is this 'helping the hobby' coming from?<br /><br />They simply said they wanted more precise grading.<br /><br />They then gave a few reasons, showed a few charts. I don't recall them saying they want to help the hobby.<br /><br />I think someone somewhere mentioned that and it was said enough times that it became fact. Like alot of other things that get said on message boards.<br /><br /><br />ok carry on.<br /><br /><br />Steve

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>You asked about where PSA said they were helping the hobby? <br /><br />"In conclusion, we feel that this change will further enhance the PSA graded card market by providing more detailed grading and additional value to the hobbyist."<br /><br /><br /><br />I don't know but to me "additional value to the hobbyist" means just that...but maybe I am misinterpreting that statement and adding value doesn't really mean helping ...it means hurting?.....best regards

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Posted By: <b>Joann</b><p>I think the most interesting part of this whole program, that they are charging full price for the review, is what it implies about the amount of time spent grading.<br /><br />A card comes in raw for grading, and gets the full evaluation. Now suppose the same card comes back for the bump review. I assume that PSA has armed its graders with very specific direction for each grade level to help the bump review. It would say something like "if a card comes in with Grade X, then look only for features Y and Z (something like undented corners or even borders or something) and if they are present assign the card a new Grade X.5. If not, leave it at X." Clearly this review would take far less time than a full intitial eval of a raw card, no? So why no discount?<br /><br />There is only one explanation. <br /><br />The cost of grading consists of many components. There is logging, tracking, the actual review, making labels, purchase label supplies, the cost of the molded slab halves, the cost of the sonic weld process, packaging, shipping, etc etc. All of these items contribute to the cost.<br /><br />For PSA to say that a substantially reduced time for review will not change the cost to customer is essentially saying that the role and contribution of the eval process to the entire cost is minimal - all of the other items make up the bulk of the cost.<br /><br />So in a way they are acknowledging that evaluations (meaning original, not the bump reviews) are quick and limited, otherwise they would make up a higher portion of the overall cost. And if they made up a higher portion of overall cost, then a significant reduction in eval time for a bump review would lower the cost. But it hasn't.<br /><br />That's both interesting and a little startling to me.<br /><br />J

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Posted By: <b>Frank Evanov</b><p><I>" I assume that PSA has armed its graders with very specific direction for each grade level to help the bump review. It would say something like "if a card comes in with Grade X, then look only for features Y and Z (something like undented corners or even borders or something) and if they are present assign the card a new Grade X.5. If not, leave it at X." Clearly this review would take far less time than a full intitial eval of a raw card, no? So why no discount?"</I><br /><br />You make some very good points. This month's PSA SMR magazine [in very tiny print on page 44] notes on half grades: "While PSA graders will evaluate all of the attributes possessed by a card.....<B>there will be a clear focus on centering</B>. Generally speaking, for an upgrade a card must exhibit centering that is <B>5-10% better</B> than the lowest % allowed within a particular grade"<br /><br /><br />Essentially, if you are going to spend the bucks to get the bump, you had better have a very sharply centered card; otherwise you're wasting your money..<br /><br><br>Frank

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Posted By: <b>Corey R. Shanus</b><p>Joann -- While I think you make some insightful points, I look at it a bit differently. The reason PSA doesn't offer a discount is because they don't have to. Their half-grade scheme has their set registry participants over a barrel. PSA knows those people will feel they have to resubmit, discount or no discount, because if they don't their sets will go down in the standings. So why offer a discount if you don't have to? <br /><br />Steve -- From what I have been made to understand from the thread a few weeks ago on the new half-grade system, for the resubmits PSA will NOT be looking for alterations. So I don't think any phone calls will be forthcoming.

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Posted By: <b>Steve</b><p>additional value to the hobbyist."<br /><br /><br />Means exactly what it implies.<br /><br />I took in a a way of that they were proving their point with the charts.<br /><br />I did not take it, and they did not say, they were helping the hobby. Especially the way that you have been trying to claim. <br /><br /><br />So yes, I think you misinterpreted them.<br /><br /><br />Steve<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Steve</b><p> Steve -- From what I have been made to understand from the thread a few weeks ago on the new half-grade system, for the resubmits PSA will NOT be looking for alterations. So I don't think any phone calls will be forthcoming.<br /><br /><br />So basically you take what you read on a message board as gospel? I don't recall anyone from PSA coming here (they no better) and making that claim. Just like the 'helping the hobby' speel, if something gets said enough times it becomes the truth.<br /><br />Great, however, all I did was answer your previous question. Now I'll try and answer this one as well.<br /><br />Lets assume an altered/counterfiet/reprint is obvious, The grader is not looking for them but can't miss it. Then you will expect a call.<br /><br />Everyone and their grand mother knows PSA is making money doing this. What company doesn't make money selling a service or product?<br /><br />What collector selling his cards doesn't try to make money?<br /><br /><br />Jonne makes some great points however I think she missed one, PSA or whoever charges more for higher dollar cards. If something happens to them the payout is higher thus the service level is too. That is at least the theory. Or part of it anyway.<br /><br />Steve

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Posted By: <b>JimH</b><p>I am enjoying reading the strong logic used countering PSA's move to abuse customers who have been faithful to them. Like I said when I started this it dosen't pass the smell test. If one looks at PSA's submission form it says you have to submit a card in the 30.00, 55.00, 85.00 or 200.00 cost per submission if a card has a certain declared value. My question is, who declares value on a graded card? It is my understanding PSA forces you to use the SMR value for values of graded submitted cards. And to think our young friends say PSA dosen't set price. Also, would it not be smart to break out already graded cards to get the better submission charge. Isn't that great "for thr hobby"!<br><br>Jim.Heffron@cox.net

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Posted By: <b>Steve</b><p>The funny thing is I am not countering anything. The hate here is unbeliavable, I have said "I did not like it,That I would not play that game". No one saw that i guess. I was simply explaining what I feel is going on.<br /><br />Ok Ill be like the rest of you, Ill become a sheep and follow u all. PSA is peeing down my leg, like I didn't already know. Thanks Leon for bringing it to my attention.<br /><br /><br />God forbid someone tries to explain the simplist of things all he will get is another question.<br /><br /> <br />Bahhhhhhh<br /><br /><br /><br />Steve

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Posted By: <b>Steve</b><p>My question is, who declares value on a graded card? It is my understanding PSA forces you to use the SMR value for values of graded submitted cards<br /><br /><br />Your understanding is wrong. They do not force you to do that. And if they did it would work both ways. If I was to send in a MINT 9 mars attack card they book for 300.00, yet they sell always for 1000.00. I could take the chance and insure it for 300.00. And to clarify, since PSA does not go toa 9.5 just say Im looking for a review to 10. <br /><br />How many times have I heard here that the SMR is out of wack. Ohh, that is when it fits whatever you are trying to convey. Probably when you are trying to sell a Cobb card for 3k when the smr states it has a value of 1k. In this PSA bash, it is best to imply that SMR is right on! I get it!! <br /><br /><br />Steve<br /><br /><br />You in my post does not mean anyone specifically. Just people in general.

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Posted By: <b>JimH</b><p>I'm not sure I understand what declared value means. If I have a graded card (PSA graded) which is thought to be expensive ($10K) and I want to submit it to PSA for a possible upgrade, will PSA accept it if I put a declared value of $100 on it?<br><br>Jim.Heffron@cox.net

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Posted By: <b>Steve</b><p>No<br /><br /><br />Edited to add:<br /><br />You could though, since you think it is worth 10k, declare that, even if PSA SMR states it is a 12k card. <br /><br />Just like the opposite could happen with my Mars attacks example i spoke of earlier.<br /><br /><br /> <br /> Steve<br />

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Posted By: <b>Matthew</b><p>If i purchase a card that is not on a half grade how will i know if it ws ever sent out to psa for that half grade higher. psa will make tons of money on the same cards getting resubmitted by someone not knowing it was already sent in. and psa will have that all in there computers so there will be no mistakes by them. they will know it was previously summitted.

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Posted By: <b>Steve</b><p> Also, would it not be smart to break out already graded cards to get the better submission charge.<br /><br /><br /><br />Again no.<br /><br /><br />That makes absolutley no sense. You are missing the point, besides declaring the value for them to determine the cost of grading you are insuring your item at that level. <br /><br /><br />Steve<br /><br /> <br /><br /><br /><br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>lumberg</b><p>JIM H -<br />You obviously have the best handle on the situation here and is why I think you should feel compelled to at least write the company.<br /><br />It seems the reasonable person would support your claim that previously graded cards deserve a least a discount.<br /><br />If someone (you jim) doesn't put a stop to this type of abuse there is no end in sight. The company will continue to gouge the collectors and diminish the hobby to profits and efficiency as its ultimate values.<br /><br />That's stright talk.

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Posted By: <b>Steve</b><p>If i purchase a card that is not on a half grade how will i know if it ws ever sent out to psa for that half grade higher. psa will make tons of money on the same cards getting resubmitted by someone not knowing it was already sent in. and psa will have that all in there computers.<br /><br /><br />That is the pee Leon was talking about earlier. lol<br /> <br />I think once it gets going people that track certs will know when a card was graded. Just like anything else info is power.<br /><br /><br /><br />Steve

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Posted By: <b>Steve</b><p> And to think our young friends say PSA dosen't set price.<br /><br /><br />I think that was directed at me. I thought the same about you!<br /><br />Sadly I am not young anymore. (I wish I was) And by the content of some of your questions I have come to the conclusion that maybe it is you that is 'young' or at the least is trying to portray that.<br /><br />Steve<br /><br /><br /><br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>george &quot;bulldog&quot; adams</b><p>steve winpitcher i hear your levi`s son is that true. bulldog

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Posted By: <b>Steve</b><p> Does your head hurt coming up with that question Dogg?<br /><br />This thread, which I thought was intended for information has now degenerated to the typical pissing match that usually happens here whenever the topic is PSA.<br /><br />so I'm done with it.<br /><br /><br />Steve<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>What I find odd about these type of discussions are those who apparently know little about the PSA Set Registry(Like Corey and Leon)presume that PSA collectors must resubmit to maintain their position on the PSA Set Registry. <br /><br />While most collectors want to get the best possible card they can and enjoy seeing their set ratings rise there is very little overt competition--particularly at below the number one spot.<br /><br />Instead from all the collectors I know, collectors are focused on the value of their collection. Instead of speculating what will happen in price to the straight 8s(probably not much)versus the 8.5s(which will unquestionably rise)it is best to look at the corresponding SGC grades as a guide). With the exception of certain pre-war sets I think it is reasonable to assume because of the huge popularity of the PSA Set Registry that a PSA 8 will sell at a moderate premium to an SGC 88 and a PSA 8.5 will trade at a moderate premium to a SGC 92. The fact is that for a set collector(which is what most collectors are)the cards simply do not exist in the the required grade or exist in sufficient quantities in SGC.<br /><br />Jim

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Hey Jim- how are you doing with your submission? Has the process started yet?

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Jim, obviously I agree that the issue of competition on the Registry is not what will drive resubmissions. As I've stated, if you have a valuable Registry set you almost have no choice but to resubmit; otherwise, you are leaving money on the table for all the 8s that could become 8.5s. For me, I won't resubmit until I'm ready to sell the set, though I might send in a handful of cards that I believe should get the pop at some point.

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Jim- it would be interesting if you were willing to share the results of your submission after it is completed. Your collection is so large that it would achieve some statistical norm regarding what percentage of cards would likely get half grade bumps- 10%, 20%, etc. And it would give other collectors an idea what to expect.<br /><br />Of course there will be two kinds of submissions: 1) those who examine each of their cards and only send in the ones that clearly look undergraded; 2) or those who send entire sets or collections in, even though they know some of the cards don't have a chance.

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Jeff,<br /><br />I know you this--a couple others do not. Thats why I posted the example that I was going to submit all my 55s first so I could overtake you and get into the top 10.<br /><br />Barry,<br /><br />Joe has committed in prinipal to coming east and grading them although they would be done in stages--perhaps I would give him pre-war baseball first and take it from there. I am not wild about a Brinks truck coming and shipping 20,000 cards across the country.<br /><br />An alternative he suggested was to have a couple of his vintage graders come over to my house and cherry pick cards that looked like they could be upgrade candidates and look at them more carefully in California. This mighyt work as an alternative. I am in no great rush.<br /><br />Jim<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Barry,<br /><br />As long as Joe is amenable, I would likely do this. The results could be seen set by set on the PSA Set Registry anyway so I couldn't imagine him having a problem.<br /><br />Part of the deal is I would send in another couple thousand raw cards to Jow(a lot pre-war) so this may prove interesting as well.<br /><br />Jim