19th century " Holy Grail "
 

We all know the 1952 Topps Mantle is considered the " Holy Grail " for post-war cards and the T206 Wagner fills the same role for pre-war cards. What card do you believe is or could turn into the " Holy Grail " of 19th century collecting or are there simply too many extreme rarities for any one card to stand alone?

Three that are worthy of consideration:

1) N172 Anson in Uniform
2) Just So Cy Young
3) Four Base Hits Mike Kelly

There are other rarities, but hard to surpass this trio.

My two cents
 

I would agree with Barry and say the 1893 Just So Tobacco Cy Young. To the best of my knowledge only 1 is known to exist. Does a board member own this card, or does anyone know of other examples that are out there?

Tony

I will second that motion....
 

I think this list is pretty good. IN terms of importance I might feather my own nest and throw in the 1869 Peck and Snyder. It's hard to argue the significance of the undisputed first professional card. Great question, Gary....and it was nice chatting with you, for quite a while, at the National. We'll have to do it again!!

There is only one Just So Cy Young known, and it is owned by a board member. Of the three cards I cited, it would likely be the most valuable.

Leon's Peck and Snyder is extremely important, but not at the rarity level of the other three.

Population estimates: one Cy Young, two Mike Kellys, four Ansons (one is in the Burdick Collection), and maybe 15-25 1869 Reds.

For a card to be a " Holy Grail " it would have to meet three criteria, in my opinion. It would have to be a special player from a classic set that is available enough to be collectible. The first two criteria are easily met, but the issue of availability is more difficult to reconcile. The card would have to be available enough to have widespread appeal. The Mantle and the Wagner are far from being the rarest cards in their category, but are available enough to be pursued by collectors. Does any 19th century card fit this bill?

team cards?
 

The 1869 Peck and Snyder does meet the criteria if you are including a team card. If not...then I have to give it some more thought. Most 19th century cards have limited availability to start with....

Based on that criteria, I would say either the N162 Anson or King Kelly.

Gary- the 1869 Reds team card may be the only 19th century one to fit the criteria of being rare and historically important, and actually be attainable. If you want one you can get it (I know you already have:)).

Most of the others simply aren't. You can't put a Four Base Hits of Kelly or a Just So of Cy Young on your wantlist. It just won't happen.

Richard- I just sent you two more emails and they both came back undeliverable. Do you know what the problem is?

How about the 1888 G & B Chewing Gum Albert Spalding.........

I have to say Just So Young. What about the Just So Ewing that was just discovered?

If availability is one of the main criteria, it would have to be one of the major HOF players from the N28, N162 or N172 sets. The N28 Allen & Ginter Cap Anson or the N162 Goodwin Cap Anson are probably available enough to have widespread appeal.

Phil- the G & B Spalding is an excellent addition to the list. That one too is unique, I believe.

I would say the N172 Harry Wright would fit well in all 3 areas.

For me, it would be the FBH Kelly.
http://photos.imageevent.com/uffda51...%20Redlegs.JPG

I'll probably never own the Kelly but I do have the Peck & Snyder.

Anson in uniform hands down imo.

Best player from the most mainstream 19th century set, extremely valuable/desirable card.

Just So Young is the card that I would personally want the most though.

Aaron beat me to it, but I also suggest the N172 of Harry Wright---a highly desirable card that is very tough to come by, esp in a grade above a 1 or a 2, but CAN be had if one waits a long while!

I am with Jeff on this one. I think the N172 Anson in uniform is it. I would personally probably rather have the Just So Cy Young, but the fact that only one exists makes it so tough that it is almost not collectable. I think the two would roughly be of equal value at auction.
JimB

I realize this is a memorabilia piece
 

But my holy grail is this item

http://www.baseball-reference.com/bullpen/Dauvray_Cup

Rich

<b>N172 Anson in uniform</b>

It has been an extremely special card for generations.

The cards identified (N172 Anson in uniform, T206 Wagner, '52 Mantle) are all rare in ~ equal proportions w.r.t. their contemporaries (in case of Mantle, comparing '52 Topps High #s with all post-war issues). It would be unfair to pick a 19th century card that is as common as a Wagner.

Hmmm.... I'm trying to figure something out. Are we looking for a card that is rare or something that helps define "common" collected cards? The T206 Wagner is from a "commonly" collected set as is the 1952 Topps Mantle. This would almost have to make the card an OJ (N172) or something else like that. What else do we know about the other "holy grail" cards? The T206 Wagner is a scarce card from the T206 set. The 1952 Topps Mantle comes from the high series. How does that impact the idea of subjectively selecting a 19th century holy grail card? Personally, the N172 Anson in uniform makes the most sense because it is a rarity from a widely collected set. This is just my opinion and everybody knows about opininons - they're like a$$holes, everbody's got one....

For me, the choices are easy: Just So Young and G&B Spalding. I think the Boston Cigar Radbourn wouldn't be too far behind.

If you throw in the criteria that the card is "obtainable" (at least a few exist), I'd probably go with the Kalamazoo Bat Harry Wright, plus N173s of Ewing and Mascot (I have one!) and Delahanty with bat on shoulder. I believe I once saw a photo of a Gypsy Queen portrait of Radbourn -- I'd toss that in too, although I'm not sure if it qualifies as "obtainable".

Based on that criteria, I would say the Anson in uniform OJ.

The Holy Grail for me would be the Jim Creighton P&S memorial 'CDV'

I'd go with the N172 Anson in uniform.

Fred makes a good point in favor of the N172 Anson in uniform. It is a very scarce and desirable card of a top tier HOF from a commonly collected set - the most widely collected set of the era.

As much as I love the Just So Cy Young and the 4BH Kelly, or card the N167 Ewing for that matter, those sets are so scarce that they cannot be widely collected. Obviously there are not many that are actually trying to complete (if even possible) the N172 set, there are many active collectors of various sub-sets within it.
JimB

grail
 

one more for N172 Anson in uniform.

best,
barry

It seems the N172 Anson in uniform is the most mentioned choice and probably the best given the criteria. Anson career was as long and prolific as just about any 19th century player. I would say the N172 set is the most widely collected and popular 19th century set. And finally, the Anson is
" possible " to obtain.

Leon- Nice to see you at the National. Thanks for the assist.

I would disagree in that the Anson is virtually impossible to obtain. The three in private hands may stay with their owners a very long time.

19th century grail
 

Looking at the criteria similar to the Wagner, I'd have to say the old judge Anson in Uniform. A few reasons are that Anson's a big HOFer, scarcity of the card, and that it is from the largest BB card set from that era.
Just my opinion!

Anson in Uniform. The T206 Wagner is what it is because it is part of the most widely collected vintage card set. The Old Judge set is the most widely collected 19th century set and the Anson in Uniform is the crown jewel of that set.

Joe G made a great point -

<b>The cards identified (N172 Anson in uniform, T206 Wagner, '52 Mantle) are all rare in ~ equal proportions <font color="red">w.r.t.</font> their contemporaries </b>


Barry's correct about the attainability of the N172 Anson in uniform -you probably wont get one unless you know someone that has one and that person that owns it is willing to "get rid of IT". But when you look at the other cards that are being offered up as the holy grail there are fewer of those cards "known to exist" (probably not available) than the OJ Anson in uniform.

Can someone post a picture of this beautiful rarity? Thank you.

Here you go.

Thanks sir.

Another vote for the N172 Anson in Uniform.

While one is not likely to come up for sale anytime soon, there have been two examples auctioned off publicly in the last 20 years - one in the Sotheby's Copeland sale and another by Lew Lipset.

There was also a private sale about 12 years ago; that accounts for the three known examples.

Does anyone know why the Anson card is so scarce?

Nobody knows why it is so scarce, and it seems like a bit of an anomaly given how popular Anson was. And why doesn't he have even one batting pose? Look how many Mike Kelly has. There is a mystery about Anson's appearance in the set for sure.

Many of the rarities in the Old Judge set are from the 1888 Fb issue (as are the Anson in Uniform and the Harry Wright third pose).

Jay- don't you find it odd that Kelly, Ward, Clarkson, Ewing et al. had so many poses, while Anson had only two, one which likely was impossible to find even at the time of issue?

I'd have to agree with Anson in Uniform for the toughest. My OWN personal holy grail of 19th century would be a (or THE) Pete Browning OJ Cabinet.

Doesn't it seem that Anson has relatively fewer different images from his playing days than do others in his class. A non portrait pose of Anson in uniform is a rarity. Right now I'm having a hard time thinking of one on a baseball card.

There's a line drawing of Anson in the Yum Yum set, with a likely counterpart in G & B, that is an action pose...and the one portrait in that set is a mislabeled image of Ned Williamson!

Not really a card, but how about the 1840's photo of the NY Knickerbockers w/Alexander Cartwright?

That's a daguerreotype, and like all dags it is unique. Certainly a monumental photo, but not a card.

Thanks, Barry, that's the word that I was looking for. I knew it wasn't an albumen photo.

Barry--There are a lot of oddities. Why didn't Ewing, one of the preeminent players of the day, have an 1887 Old Judge card? BTW, Brouthers, also a star, had only three poses.

The issue with Anson in Uniform may also be that Anson didn't like the card. Remember from the book that the card is a composite of Anson's head and Dalrymple's body. Maybe he didn't like this and had his card pulled. Who knows?

As I said, it's a bit of a mystery. I could see him not liking that pose.

Does anyone have images of all the cards mentioned? I would love to see a scan of the Just So Cy Young card.