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campyfan39 11-05-2013 06:13 PM

Future of the Hobby/ Responses needed
 
Hello everyone.
I am finishing up a book about collecting cards (50-80's topps) with my late father. I wanted to close the book by talking about the future of our great hobby. I am looking for opinions, quotes, stats, etc.
It seems as if every show I go to all of the dealers are old men. I know a lot of us use the net now but what do you think is the future for card collecting?

Thanks in advance!
Chris

Rich Klein 11-05-2013 06:20 PM

Better than you think
 
The hobby is evolving but as you mentioned many of the interpersonal relationships (show, stores) are disappearing and yes when you got a normal show or a store, many of the dealers will be older men who are used to that millieu.

However, look at a site such as Net 54, we skew older than most baseball card hobby web sites yet we are younger then what you describe and other sites (such as Blowout cards or freedom card board) are much younger. If you look at Twitter, Facebook, or other social media sites, the average skews younger and when I set up at the local Dallas area show in July, a young man was telling me about a network used by even younger collectors.

The pros, we will still have a hobby

The cons, many of the things we grew up with including base cards being important. have gone away -- I think there is still a great deal of power in seeing cards of more than just the top 100 but thiat is just me.

I write about this topic fairly frequently in my Sports Collectors Daily column so please feel free to read and quote what is needed with proper citation

Rich

campyfan39 11-05-2013 06:24 PM

Thank you Rich. I enjoy and look forward to your facebook posts!

39special 11-05-2013 06:26 PM

It seems cards in those years('50's-'80's) are still popular.It also seems some younger people are collecting those years.
There are always ups and downs,but I think its pretty strong.

Cardboard Junkie 11-05-2013 06:44 PM

In my opinion the hobby is already dead, it just hasn't fallen down yet.:(

vintagebaseballcardguy 11-05-2013 07:19 PM

I am 40. I can remember 20 or 25 years ago having at least 5 brick and mortar card shops to go to, and the area I live in is not large. Looking back, these shops had a pretty good selection. The Internet (especially eBay) began to change everything in the second half of the 90s. Shops folded up, and even a lot of dealers who had their own websites went to eBay....this seems to have lightened up in the last few years. Guys who had shops sold out of their houses and on eBay. I now have access to one shop which is about 60 miles from my house. It is worth the drive. I don't care how extensive an on line inventory a dealer has, there is NO substitute for looking at and handling vintage cards in person. This includes commons and not just stars. Until computer and iPad screens give one the ability to smell the cardboard and musty surroundings of a real card shop, the experience on line will be cheaper. The shop I go to is owned by a gentleman in his early 70s. He is great and fair-minded and usually has good inventory. We all have lots of good conversation about the hobby. He has quality auctions every Tuesday night, too. He won't be around forever. When he's gone, I am not sure what I will do. I will always collect, but it won't be as good without that shop.

It's painting with a broad brush I know, but most of the "collectors" I know who are close to my age are really investment guys. Some of them know it, some don't. For them, on line works fine. Everything they buy is or will soon be in a plastic holder and sold the second a profit can be made, unless of course they are registry hounds. For me, there is something nostalgic, even romantic about 50s baseball cards. Our country grew up alongside baseball. I never even saw the guys I collect play, but they are larger than life heroes to me. I read about them, I watch documentaries about them, and I collect their cards. I guess that's how I see it. Thanks for asking, and best of luck with your book.

brewing 11-06-2013 11:33 AM

If stamps are still a hobby and hold their value, baseballcards are a long way from a dead hobby.

Leon 11-06-2013 12:04 PM

From my perspective the hobby grew exponentially (by leaps and bounds) with the advent of the internet. Now we can collaborate in seconds what used to take days, weeks and months. So if you have 10000 disparate collectors then that is one thing. However, if you have 5000 collectors that all collect together, then you have a much bigger and stronger hobby. I believe that is the best thing the internet has done for us. Most of us wouldn't have the collections we do today without the internet. I have quite often thought about this subject and I think it makes sense. That being said, I still love shows, especially the National. There is nothing like getting together every year with hundreds of my friends to hoot and holler.

tulsaboy 11-06-2013 12:12 PM

For what little it's worth, I think the hobby is in serious trouble. I think it will always exist in some form or another, because there will always be baseball fans, history fans, or folks who do things because their fathers did them and their fathers before. I would argue that a lot of this trouble can be placed squarely at the feet of both MLB and of the card manufacturers.

I collected primarily in the mid-80's-mid 90's, and was around for the transition from the older, simpler style sets (focus is the base set, there are some inserts and/or accessory sets to collect) to the newer model (who cares about the base set, everything is focused on chasing the inserts, 1/1 cards and parallel sets.) That approach, combined with the strike and the increased focus on cards as an investment instead of cards as simple fun has devestated our hobby, at least as it relates to kids.

Kids shouldn't have to worry about investments, value growth, condition, population reports and the other vagaries of our hobby that they now do. Collecting your favorite team, your favorite player, getting that small handful of packs from the corner store and hoping against all hope that they hold that one last card you need for your set- those should be the focus of a child.

I'm one who was not bothered at all by overproduction. The classic cited examples are 1988-1989 Topps and Donruss. You can still buy cases of those cards for less than they sold at wholesale when they were produced, and that is 24-25 years after the fact! Someone who wants a nice example of their favorite player's rookie card, if that player rookied in those years, can still get it for less than a buck. Collecting those sets is simple fun, and the focus is on the players, the cards, and the experience- not on the return on investment. I agree that it got rediculous, but I remember well searching through huge piles of those packs at Kmart, Target, Skaggs and Safeway, looking for Kevin Seitzer on the top of a blister pack, or Tom Glavine on the top of a Score wax pack, or for Sam Horn smiling from a rack pack. It was just fun. And because of the overproduction, mom bought those packs at a quarter each.

Cards are way too expensive. I understand economics, and that they aren't going to be 25 cents forever. But imagine a return to a product that focuses on a base set, with the occasional inserts. And those inserts aren't limited editions, or relic cards, or parallel sets- they are deckle edges, or stamps, or coins, or a game, or a glossy all-star set. Imagine 50 cent packs of 5 cards each, or 1 dollar packs with 10-12; imagine a rack pack where you could see the stars in all their glory peeking through the cellophane. What in the world is wrong with that?

Topps' monopoly did bring some semblance of order to a situation that had grown out of control. But like most sitautions, monopolies often aren't a good thing. It could be that a card company or product like I outlined above wouldn't find a market, because there wouldn't be the chance of finding the $500 card or the 1/1 relic card; it could be that it would be an absolute flop. But the way Topps has approached things, relic cards have lost their luster; parallel sets aren't anything unique; and the way they are chewing through their old sets and the tobacco-era products, it is only a matter of time before you see a Topps Archives set with everyone in the "historic 1998 design."

I keep boxes of packs from the mid-80's around to open when I need a fix, just because it is fun. I have a box of 1986 Topps sitting about 5 feet away from me as I sit here typing this, just waiting for me to have a bad moment at work that only baseball cards can fix. And isn't that sad? Why don't I have a box of 2013 Topps? Quite simply, because it is expensive and not much fun. My kids have had fun opening packs of mid-80's Topps; I'm not sure that I'll bother with the new stuff.

Kids should be able to go to a ballpark, or to their local store, and spend a reasonable amount of money (maybe the amount it takes to buy a coke in a vending machine) to get a pack of cards. Those cards should be well-designed, with a reasonable hope for the kids of completing a set. They should maybe even have some bubble gum included. If the hobby can't figure out a way to get kids involved, on a mass level, I believe that we will continue to watch a long, slow decline of folks interested in collecting baseball cards. They will get older and greyer (granted with higher disposable incomes) but without the simple joy of a kid opening his first pack of cards. As that happens, I think the card companies will continue to produce cards, but they will increasingly become a specialty thing not available on a regular basis. I remember when almost every grocery, drug, hardware and toy store had boxes of packs available. Made it fun for me (and expensive for mom.) And at the end of the day, isn't that the point?

kevin

Leon 11-06-2013 12:20 PM

I copied this thread to the front page of the forum so we could get some more feedback AND because it's a great topic for everyone. thanks

campyfan39 11-06-2013 06:19 PM

Thank you all!

JollyElm 11-06-2013 07:22 PM

To me it's simple. Back in my day we flipped cards night and day, constantly traded with our friends to get our favorite players and teams, we'd carry a bunch of cards in our pockets wherever we went and then we'd stick them in our bicycle spokes to get that cool whirring sound. Condition meant nothing.

Today? Kids open a new pack in a baseball card shop and handle each card very gingerly and immediately slide them into plastic sheets or holders. No wear, no tear, no baseball talk. The only thing said is, "How much is this one worth?"

vintagebaseballcardguy 11-06-2013 07:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JollyElm (Post 1203980)
To me it's simple. Back in my day we flipped cards night and day, constantly traded with our friends to get our favorite players and teams, we'd carry a bunch of cards in our pockets wherever we went and then we'd stick them in our bicycle spokes to get that cool whirring sound. Condition meant nothing.

Today? Kids open a new pack in a baseball card shop and handle each card very gingerly and immediately slide them into plastic sheets or holders. No wear, no tear, no baseball talk. The only thing said is, "How much is this one worth?"

Amen!

Brianruns10 11-06-2013 10:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JollyElm (Post 1203980)
To me it's simple. Back in my day we flipped cards night and day, constantly traded with our friends to get our favorite players and teams, we'd carry a bunch of cards in our pockets wherever we went and then we'd stick them in our bicycle spokes to get that cool whirring sound. Condition meant nothing.

Today? Kids open a new pack in a baseball card shop and handle each card very gingerly and immediately slide them into plastic sheets or holders. No wear, no tear, no baseball talk. The only thing said is, "How much is this one worth?"

Actually I think it's quotes like these that are what are killing this hobby.

Turn this quote around why don't we. You wonder about the future of this hobby, and I ask, what kid in their right mind would WANT to be a part of a hobby if they're just going to be lectured on how much better it used to be in th' good 'ole days, and how kids these days are just not doing it for the right reasons?

I should know. I speak as a young person collecting cards. I'm 29 now, and have been collecting for three years, though I've been fascinated by the hobby for much longer. But before I engaged in the hobby in earnest, I collected coins for 15 years.

And I made the switch largely because I found coin collectors to be a bunch of old curmudgeons who just weren't that friendly to deal with. I got tired of it all, and I got hooked on baseball cards when my Dad and I embarked upon finishing some of his sets...he collected as a boy, and kept a near complete run of Topps cards '57-63.

I'm now building the '52 set and I have higher ambitions....the 33 Goudey...the T206 White Borders and the Cracker Jack series.

And let me put this out there for you all to ponder. I have zero interest in baseball as it is played today. Zero. I see the sport as filled with a lot of corrupt ballplayers who shoot steroids in their veins, who are profligate with their money, who have no sense of style or class (The Boston Red Sox's slovenly appearance year after year is an embarassment, at least, to me), and worst of all they have no sense of loyalty to a team or a community. Gone are the days when a player might spend an entire career with one franchise. Now they all hop skip and jump to whatever will pay them the most, or offers the best shot at a world series ring. Bah.

Moreover, I was a terrible ball player, and loathed playing little league. I quit midway through my first season of kid pitch because I was sick of standing out in left field under the sun for 90 bloody minutes, whilst alternately being scared to death of being beaned by a pitch from a kid as inexperienced as I. By all logic, I should be the least likely person to get involved in baseball card collecting. Yet I am, and there are many out there like me who could as well.

I'm interested in this hobby because I appreciate the history and the artistry of it. I adore the design and the rich colors of these cards, especially Topps from 52-56. I love the flexichrome hand coloring, that hyper-real Technicolor look. I love the lithography and the attention to detail lavished on the T206 cards, and the Goudeys.

Moreover, I love what these cards represent. I love that they were not prefab collectibles, that go straight from the manufacturer to the the dealer's shelf or booth. These were things kids enjoyed, and spent their lawnmower money and allowances on each week, like my dad did, who fondly recalls how they'd run from store to store chasing rumors of the latest series hitting the shelves, and how they'd trade and covet certain players. My Dad adored Stan the Man and Joe Adcock, and still has his beaten up Bowman 53 and '54s of those players.

I love the idea that the cards I now possess were once loved by some kid who adored the sport and looked up to these players, who were heroes, gods and your older brother all rolled up into one. These cards embody a time and era in the sport I'd surely love to know, but never will. Occasionally I'll ask my dad, "Just what was baseball like when you were a kid, " and he'll get a distant gaze and a little wistful and say, "Oh baseball was everything."

Not only that, I see these cards as symbols of a real force for good. I have a working theory, that baseball cards helped play a role in the civil rights movement. Consider the 52 series of Topps. The black players are not treated differently. They weren't issued in smaller numbers, or grouped together in one series. They were sprinkled throughout. They were just like every other player. The kids who collected these cards weren't urged to see race, just a player with stats. When the sixth, High series came out, who were the three players chosen to lead the lineup? Mickey Mantle, Jackie Robinson and Bobby Thomson. THAT is saying something. That is saying to kids everywhere, "If you like Bobby and Mickey, you should pay attention to Jackie," or for that matter Monte Irving or Willie Mays or George Crowe.

Yes, I collect my cards in PSA holders. No I don't just buy the plastic. I buy the card. I buy them for the color, the centering, the clarity of the image. I'll take a centered PSA 6 over a diamond cut PSA 8 any day of the week. But for lack of quality dealers around where I live, and because there are so many unscrupulous people out there dealing in trimmed and altered cards, short of seeing the card in person and measuring each edge, I find PSA or SGC the only secure route when I buy my cards online. I'm not going to let principle get in the way of common sense. As Will Rogers said, "you should be less concerned about getting a return on your money, than getting your money returned." Well I won't risk my money buying stuff that could be junk, just because of some absurd adherence to the true spirit of the hobby. If we all wanted to collect in the TRUE way, we'd paste our cards to album pages, or tote them in bundles held by rubber bands. There's very little difference to me between keeping raw cards in album pages, and holdered ones in boxes. It's just common sense to protect the items we treasure.

So we cannot, MUST NOT assume the stance that young people don't understand, or are ignorant, or collect for the wrong reasons. It's bull. They won't collect if they're going to come up against collectors who cast aspersions and hem and haw about "The good ole days, " and "Kids these days." And let me tell you, people my age are SO FASCINATED by the old and the vintage. CDs are going the way of the dodo, while vinyl is coming back! I have so many friends who are all about buying used, buying original, whether its clothes or furniture or jewelry or records. I for one buy and restore soda fountain mixers and tube radios. We're a generation that is dubious of the modern pre-fab collectible and we are drawn to the spirit of mid 20th century manufacturing, which emphasized quality and style above cheapness and disposability. We are PRIMED to take over this hobby.

Instead we must reach out to kids and get them hooked on the hobby. For my cousin's graduation gift this year, I gave him a '52 common card, worth 40 or 50 bucks. I told him he could sell it if he wished, or hang on to it, or maybe start to build a set on his own. The point is I tried to plant the seed, and now it is up to him. That's all we can do, to offer up that choice to young people out there, and let them choose. But to do so, we must first be welcoming and open to young people. We must be optimistic. Because of course no one is going to collect if they hear a hobby is dying. That's a rather dire pronouncement, and totally wrong.

I ask you, if indeed a hobby was tied, as some claim it to be, to collectors who grew up watching the players, if indeed the hobby hinges on the baby boomers, than why are the T206 cards or the Goudeys more prized than ever? Shouldn't their values have crashed once all the people who watched those players play died off? Why are the dead ball era players more valuable than ever? I argue for the same reason that I collect 50s Topps. Because of the history and the heritage they contain, and the sheer beauty of the craft involved in making the cards.

So take the initiative. Go out and start try to get kids interested. Give a few cards away why don't you? I go to card shows and I see no generosity of spirit in dealers, only guys wanting to make a quick buck selling crap and overpriced vintage. I saw a box at a dealer's booth once, with a handful of '52s in it, and they were all beaten to hell, PSA 1s across the board, yet he's asking the same price that I would pay for a EX5 common card. Let's be real here. Give one or two of these cards away. For Christmas, put cards in people's stockings. How about for Halloween, you hand out cards instead of candy? Offer a choice...a piece of candy or a vintage card. Most kids will probably take the candy, but a few might not...some might even start collecting. We don't need that many to get the ball rolling. Just a few, and then they might get others on board, and it can spiral from there.

But the responsibility has to fall to us. So let us abandon all this doom and gloom about the hobby dying. It WILL be if we keep pronouncing it as such. Instead, let's keep this hobby alive by reaching out to kids and getting them excited the way we get excited. Be happy, enthusiastic and that enthusiasm will catch like a wonderful cold. Be the change you want to have happen.

brian1961 11-06-2013 11:28 PM

Brianruns10 has written a right-on, well-written, thought-provoking reply.

I stand and salute him.

Forty years ago Lionel Carter and Frank Nagy helped me progress in the vintage collecting hobby. I've been at it off and on ever since. Once in a while I've given a few cards away. From the reaction pf the recipients, I felt almost as good as if I were the one getting some new cards.:)

Thanks again, Brianruns10. Bravo. Bravo.

--Brian Powell

CobbvLajoie1910 11-07-2013 07:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by brian1961 (Post 1204025)
Brianruns10 has written a right-on, well-written, thought-provoking reply.

I stand and salute him.

Forty years ago Lionel Carter and Frank Nagy helped me progress in the vintage collecting hobby. I've been at it off and on ever since. Once in a while I've given a few cards away. From the reaction pf the recipients, I felt almost as good as if I were the one getting some new cards.:)

Thanks again, Brianruns10. Bravo. Bravo.

--Brian Powell

+1. Great post Brianruns10. Love your passion.

campyfan39 11-07-2013 08:50 AM

I agree, great post. I think it is especially enlightening coming form someone who did not/does not play or watch a lot currently.
However, you did have the connection with cards with your Dad as I did.
That is what gives me hope for my own three boys though only the youngest shows any interest at this point.
Great points all around guys thank you!



Quote:

Originally Posted by brian1961 (Post 1204025)
Brianruns10 has written a right-on, well-written, thought-provoking reply.

I stand and salute him.

Forty years ago Lionel Carter and Frank Nagy helped me progress in the vintage collecting hobby. I've been at it off and on ever since. Once in a while I've given a few cards away. From the reaction pf the recipients, I felt almost as good as if I were the one getting some new cards.:)

Thanks again, Brianruns10. Bravo. Bravo.

--Brian Powell


Brianruns10 11-07-2013 09:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by campyfan39 (Post 1204095)
I agree, great post. I think it is especially enlightening coming form someone who did not/does not play or watch a lot currently.
However, you did have the connection with cards with your Dad as I did.
That is what gives me hope for my own three boys though only the youngest shows any interest at this point.
Great points all around guys thank you!

I think this is true of ANY hobby that you need someone to introduce you to it, to serve as a mentor. Because you won't get very far in most without someone to be a guiding force, at least, initially. In my case that was my dad, but it can also be an uncle or a family friend or heck just the neighborhood business owner or hobby club president.

Leon 11-07-2013 10:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brianruns10 (Post 1204099)
I think this is true of ANY hobby that you need someone to introduce you to it, to serve as a mentor. Because you won't get very far in most without someone to be a guiding force, at least, initially. In my case that was my dad, but it can also be an uncle or a family friend or heck just the neighborhood business owner or hobby club president.

Your first post is one of the best posts I have ever read on this board. Thank you.
On a few notes, I collect and absolutely love playing softball and baseball, and have for literally 45 yrs and running. I play in a very competitive senior softball league currently. However, my start was opening '67-'72 Topps as a kid. as I am now 52. My dad could have cared less. As for current MLB baseball, I can't stand it for all of the reasons you so eloquently stated.

BTW, the thread on the main board has some great posts too....

David W 11-07-2013 12:47 PM

Kids today do everything electronically. They text, not talk. They instagram each other when they are in the same room.

That does not mean the ways we communicated are better or worse, just that they do it differently.

So, on the matter of card collecting, my 11 year old son loves, follows, and plays soccer, basketball, and football. He follows them on his Ipad with his various "aps". I used to love the Sunday paper for the stats that were in it. I followed my favorite players that way.

He does not need a card to know the stats for Drew Brees, for Kevin Durrant, or D Wade. He has ESPN.

He does not need a card to know what they look like or who they play for. He has ESPN.com or Yahoo.com.

He knows all about his favorite players from Madden and other video games.

So he has a few cards here and there, mostly thrown in his closet. Give him a few packs for Christmas and he has fun opening them, and looking for Kobe, or Manning, or Matt Carpenter, but just like books are going the way of the dinosaur, and paper money is turning into plastic debit and credit cards, so is the "Hard Copy" of a sports card.

Brianruns10 11-07-2013 12:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David W (Post 1204226)
Kids today do everything electronically. They text, not talk. They instagram each other when they are in the same room.

That does not mean the ways we communicated are better or worse, just that they do it differently.

So, on the matter of card collecting, my 11 year old son loves, follows, and plays soccer, basketball, and football. He follows them on his Ipad with his various "aps". I used to love the Sunday paper for the stats that were in it. I followed my favorite players that way.

He does not need a card to know the stats for Drew Brees, for Kevin Durrant, or D Wade. He has ESPN.

He does not need a card to know what they look like or who they play for. He has ESPN.com or Yahoo.com.

He knows all about his favorite players from Madden and other video games.

So he has a few cards here and there, mostly thrown in his closet. Give him a few packs for Christmas and he has fun opening them, and looking for Kobe, or Manning, or Matt Carpenter, but just like books are going the way of the dinosaur, and paper money is turning into plastic debit and credit cards, so is the "Hard Copy" of a sports card.

Have you tried giving him some vintage cards? Honestly, I think the modern stuff is sh*t. But when I show my vintage cards to people who know nothing about the hobby, they're always blown away by the colors and the design.

These items we treasure need not be discarded. Their meanings only change. The world isn't falling to bits, and in fact there is greater appreciation for the old now than there ever has been. I've got friends who collect vinyl albums, others who collect old books or by vintage clothing. It's all the rage.

And let me remind you, that for supposedly being a careless generation, we weren't the ones who had all our cards tossed out. The reason cards are prized today is because few thought or cared to save them way back when. They were just treated as a passing fancy, and tossed out. So the ignorance is not one-sided merely.

David W 11-07-2013 01:28 PM

[QUOTE=Brianruns10;1204235]Have you tried giving him some vintage cards? Honestly, I think the modern stuff is sh*t. But when I show my vintage cards to people who know nothing about the hobby, they're always blown away by the colors and the design.

These items we treasure need not be discarded. Their meanings only change. The world isn't falling to bits, and in fact there is greater appreciation for the old now than there ever has been. I've got friends who collect vinyl albums, others who collect old books or by vintage clothing. It's all the rage.

And let me remind you, that for supposedly being a careless generation, we weren't the ones who had all our cards tossed out. The reason cards are prized today is because few thought or cared to save them way back when. They were just treated as a passing fancy, and tossed out. So the ignorance is not one-sided merely.[/QUOTE

Oh, he likes looking at T Cards, and Stan Musial or Wilt Chamberlain cards, but they are 50 to 100 years in the past. He knows they are valuable, but he also knows the cards hanging unsold on pegs at K Mart or Wal Mart aren't.

And since he gets his info from E sources, and "aps" he looks at my ball card collection the way I look at my dad's antique radio collection - Cool and probably worth a bunch of money but who listens to AM radio on lousy speakers?


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