60's and 70's raw craziness
 

I have been dabbling in post-war 60's and 70's unslabbed cards lately (actually spending more time and $$$ than I thought), and am bemused by the prices these cards are costing. This 1970 Frank Robby with hours left is already at $90.00, and the Palmer is at $78.00.
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These are very nice cards, no doubt, but just sampling, I saw where a Palmer PSA 8 could be had for under $40, and a completed sale shows a PSA 8 Robby sold for under $50. Here the ungraded Robby is even off-center T/B, and the Palmer has a print smear down in the name block. Does someone (at least two bidders) think these would grade mint?

The phenomenon is not limited to 1970 cards either, which frankly are not the most popular and sought-after set. I just chose these to get a discussion going on whether others are seeing a noticeable bump in the price of high-condition raw cards from the 60's and early 70's. Seems a better option to just buy and crack PSA 8s if you want to build a nice set for a binder.

Sometimes cards are better sold ungraded. If these cards were graded 7s they would be valued as 7s. If they are ungraded - then the potential grade becomes part of the lure. A lot of people are obsessed with grading even though they don't fully understand the grading standards. The centering on the Frank and the print mark on the Palmer are going to keep them away from 9 range and maybe even 8 but to the untrained eye they look beautiful and they are gathering a batch of raw gems to send off in hopes of getting the big score. But yes, they could have bought a 7 or 8 for much less. But they might just have a 9 or 10.

We started noticing this a couple of years ago; you can look back and find other posts asking how Greg Morris cards get so much for raw ungraded. That's also a reason there are a few eBay resellers who do take lower graded PSA/SGC/BGS cards and crack and sell raw. Some of the buyers are just trying to put together clean raw sets, but many are trying to learn the grading game.

I was observing this last night on a 1973 Topps Clemente that GMC had listed as NM/MT. The bidding was approaching $300 when a PSA 8 could be had for <$150. I gues it is the "hope" that the card could grade as a 9 or 10 that drives the frenzy.

I think GM cards is growing all the time as well, meaning more eyes are upon their auctions.

I know I have noticed this quite often when trying to acquire 52 Topps cards.

Imo, there are reasons why some are leaving other auction houses and gravitating towards GM cards, and shipping fees are just one of them.

With all my raw 52's, if I was ever thinking of consigning with someone, GM most likely would be the place.

I have noticed the same thing and yes, it’s crazy. IMHO, there is little way to really tell the true condition from an internet pic. There are so many cards in 7 holders that look like a 9 but they are not 9s because there is something the naked eye couldn’t see. There is too much risk in paying 200% of an 8 for a high dollar vintage card, especially if over the internet.

Speaking for myself, GMC is one of the few Ebay vendors where I generally have 100% confidence in their grade assessments. I still look the cards over prior to bidding but very seldom have I got a surprise once the cards have been received.

I have been happy with the cards I've purchased from GMC, the majority are 61 Topps. I generally only look at the NM-MT or better that are centered. It's tough getting any of those at a good price but I'm ok with that. Just have to watch out and not pay over PSA 8 prices. What I have found that I need to watch out for is that there are some cards that may have a fish eye, or some other minute defect but otherwise garners the grade they have listed.
I can also say that because of the positive experiences I've had with them I sent 700+ cards to be sold. I have about 450 listed that end this week so we'll see how it goes. I have no clue about the other 250 cards that didn't get listed but I'm sure I'll find out why.
Now, I'm not judging one way or another and as a seller you typically think your cards grade higher than what you would as a buyer, lol. I do think some of my cards were listed at grades lower then they would receive at a tpg. But, that is also why they get the prices they do.
My final "curiosity" is how much of the stuff they see is theirs and how much of it is actually consigned? No big deal either way, just curious because of the amount of high grade raw they have.

I have wondered how that all works. Let us know what results you find.

Amazing what a quality detailed scan can do. I think in this day in age of rushed, crappy cell phone quality pictures, they can and do sometimes stand out. I would never be able to sell raw cards like those for a fraction of the price of a PSA 7 or above, but good for the people who can.

The main thing I don't enjoy from GM is the 10% CA sales tax. It's a beating on a big ticket item.

What does GMC stand for?

Thanks in advance.

David

Greg Morris Cards

I've noticed this crazy phenomenon lately too. I saw the Robinson card when it sold. On 1/6/19 GMC sold a NM, raw copy of a 1971 Willie Davis, high number common, for $237.06. I don't believe there is anything particularly rare about this card.

Ending tonight, GMC has a VG-VG/EX copy of the 1970 Nolan Ryan that is currently at $102.50. You can buy already graded PSA 5 copies of that card for about that price.

It's all about eye appeal which guides the final price. A nicely centered EX card may fetch more than an off-center Nrmt card.

Yeah, it's nuts. Pure speculation is to blame. Someone sees an ungraded card on ebay and thinks, "If that would grade a 9..." If you want a raw set, it is cheaper to buy them graded and crack them out than it is to try and buy raw these days..at least for high grade sets. Also, it seems no one wants graded commons these days anyway.

I agree. I recently bid on 75, trying not to go over psa 8 prices, and only won 6 cards.

I don't have 100% confidence but probably 90%. I agree that you have to look closely for print defects, and dinged corners. OC is readily apparent. :rolleyes:

PWCC has gotten almost entirely out of the raw game. We all have different opinions, but I think it's pretty hard to argue that eBay isn't king when it comes to the overall hobby's preference for acquisition. It was only a matter of time before someone reputable stepped in to fill the raw niche. Whether it's raw collecors or treasure hunters looking for tpg gold, I have no idea....but likely a mix as has been mentioned. My point being that, as much as possible, taming the wild west of raw cards on eBay is a ripe opportunity for the right seller with the right reputation and marketing.

A year and a half ago I was trying to complete a 1972 Topps set. I gave up online and picked them up at shows. The two I could not land were the Murcer- which I was losing at $30+ and the Tim Foli IA which I would quit at $20. I’m not sure what was going on at the time but those two were going for crazy money. I think I picked up both at a show under $20.

That was the set that broke me in my quest for a Topps run. What a beast. :)

I agree - GM is my go to for ungraded cards. I have purchased quite a few 52T cards from GM. There have been some listings they list as a lower grade and I ask why and they are very responsive to any questions you may have.


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I get the same here in NJ from Probstein...


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Unfortunately it will be the case everywhere, soon enough. :mad:

It’s a good thing you stopped there before getting to sets like 71 and 70 and god forbid you got to 67 and 66.

As a 1972 set aficionado, I can certainly offer some insight into the high cost of the Tim Foli IA card. It is nearly impossible to find one nicely centered, without a tilt, etc., so graded versions of it (say PSA 8 or 9) with decent centering have extremely high asking prices as compared to other lowly commons. So ebay sellers probably see the sold prices and put a premium on their cards, even though the ones they are listing are way O/C and don't share the same characteristics as the ones sold. Murcer is somewhat similar (although he was also a high numbered star in New York at a time when the Yanks had virtually nothing) in that his card is very 'tilt-centric.' Finding a centered, straight one is tough. Even a quick look at many PSA 9's shows a defined tilt to the card. If you only see what #699's sold for and don't assess the specific attributes of said cards, you come to the conclusion that the card itself is 'rare' and your asking price takes an elevator upstairs.

1971 set
 

I recently completed a 1971 baseball set. The prices for decent cards on eBay are very high. I had an especially difficult time finding a nice looking, centered, #544 Vida Blue for under $20. This card books at $2.50 in EX condition. Another high priced card is #709, the Dusty Baker Rookie. This is a high numbered card, and it books at $37 in EX, but it is impossible to find one for close to $37.

I was able to buy a few hundred NM commons from a board member, which gave me a good start to the set, and I picked up many of the stars and high numbers by buying lots, but finishing out the last 20-30 one at a time got pretty expensive. It seems that card show dealers and card shop owners realize that the prices are rising for these cards, because I wasn't able to find many bargains at shows and shops. Off condition cards are still pretty cheap, so someone could put a set together in VG without a lot of expense.

Well, sorry to rant again, but I may put my return to buying nice raw post-war cards on hold. GM had a nice 1967 Kaline a week or two ago, which mostly sells for under $100 in PSA 8 and has one sale at 8.5 for $155. My snipe didn't even register and the ungraded card sold for $193.50.

The kicker, though, was a high-number 1966 Dick Bertell. Nice but far from scarce and not so distinguishable from those in recent sales. The ungraded GM card sold for $115. This is about double what it sells for in PSA 9 MINT. Surely no one is buying in hopes of a 10?

I can see the odd card earning more when really well centered, especially if it is notoriously found off center, and likewise for cards usually subject to print dots or snow. But c'mon man. This is just nuts and I'm not cherry picking sales to make my point, unless everyone just happens to want the same cards that I bid.

I just don’t get it either. It makes no sense.

Seems odd to me as well, I'm hoping the mania extents to mid-grade raw that is nice and centered too. I have a '56 Clemente up on ebay right now that is perfectly centered, would be about a 5. If it sells for exorbitantly more than I paid for it, that would be just fine with me...

It is mostly about speculation. Someone sees a raw card and thinks it could be a 9 or whatever and gambles.

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what does make perfect sense is to not by a thing from Garret Morris and their 10% sales tax from CA on top of it. NO NEED.

I said it before and I'll say it again. There seems to be something at play with GM Cards. Without casting aspersions, because I am not leveling any actual accusations, anyone who used to buy from them a couple of years ago (to take advantage of the $3 shipping total, no matter how many cards you purchased) sees how things have changed. I used to purchase a lot of stuff at nice prices (and I fell a little short a thousand times, so clearly there were other people bidding, too) to upgrade my sets, but then their whole existence suddenly flip flopped. Instead of being an inexpensive go-to ebay seller - a convenient place to get cards at fair prices - their sales prices soared and everything they had started going through the roof (like anecdotes from this thread show). It made absolutely no sense. Now the first thing I think of when I see a GM auction is, "How high am I going to have to bid to even have a chance of winning that one??" and skip it entirely. Again, I'm not accusing them of anything, but now I scroll past their stuff the same way I do with frickin' Dean...and I'm sure they couldn't care less.

People will say the reason for their growth into an incredible revenue-grabbing success is great customer service, or that they grade their items accurately, or ship fast and whatever else. Apologist stuff. Blah blah blah, come on, 99% of the ebayers I buy from do the exact same things. Why pay 200% of what the 'same' card is selling for from a different seller????? Pure lunacy!!!

Ok.
So besides what's going on with Greg Morris and Dean's, what is the opinion on paying more for a well centered raw card with sharp corners? Personally, I have no problem paying more for an ungraded card that is well centered with sharp corners. I have no need for a psa 7 that is off center.
I have 3 sets where centering is the main focus. 1958,1959 and 1960. I have probably paid too much at times for cards that are very hard to find centered.

If centering is the key factor for your sets, then absolutely grab ungraded ones that really work for you, and pay what you must.

I've been bidding on GM cards for past three weeks but only win about 10% of my bids. I too wonder why the high winning bid on some.:confused:

Check out last nights auction. 1984 Donruss Don Mattingly - raw - $455. It looks nice but if you get a 9 you’re out a lot of money.

I saw that. I saw it maybe an hour before it closed when it was around 350. I was so taken back I even stopped what I was doing to show my wife the insanity. She really could not care less, fyi. Nice that there are folks on here that do. :D

His prices are extremely high.