POLL: IN or OUT: YES or NO
Just a simple YES or NO answer, please. Try not to expand on you answer. I'm just trying to gauge exactly how 'we' stand on this.
Q: Should Barry Bonds and/or Roger Clemens be Inducted into the HOF? |
No and no.
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Who is this Cemens of whom you speak?
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Cemens in, Clemens out.
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Clemens - YES
Bonds - YES |
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Both NO (Out).
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I said yes and yes.
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Yes and yes. It's absurd that these guys -- easily in the top 5 of all time pitchers and batters, respectively -- are out and a ton of far far lesser lights are in.
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Too many marginal players in, and Bonds and Clemens were among the greatest players ever. They've already been punished by having to wait at least ten years. Lifetime ban is too harsh. |
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Sarie - my tipeng has nevurr bin the besst |
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2 No's for me
They chose their fate |
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Bonds-yes
Clemens-YES Neither cheater more than whoever your favorite player is.:D |
That's the easiest way to excuse lying and cheating, assume or assert that everyone did it.
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no
no |
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It's the same old tired debate, but the same people who get all sanctimonious about roids still revere guys who popped amphetamines like Aaron and Mays.
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I think it's interesting that the "yes" votes are tracking in tandem with the BBWAA.
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Clemens-NO, Bonds-NO
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Look, I don't condone cheating and personally hate it. But I also hate the incredibly mediocre players that are getting into the Hall in the place of the tainted superstars. Trammell and Morris were fine players but debatable for entry. I guess it's just my general disdain for the HOF. |
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Then Jackson should be punished for stealing money but let's assume he did participate in throwing the series, despite his stats saying otherwise, we are comparing a player's indiscretion over 8 games compared to those who cheated over several hundred games. Maybe it is time for us to accept that there are really very few superstars in the game who are not cheating but that should not mean we look the other way for the guys who did cheat to become superstars. Bonds was HOF material before he used. I don't think we should be acknowledging his (or anyone else's) accomplishments knowing he broke the rules to achieve them. Greg |
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I'm not understanding the greenies argument at all. You can still take the modern equivalent of greenies and play right now so long as you have a prescription. You can't take HGH or anabolic steroids at all, prescription or not. It's not an apt comparison. |
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At the end of the day these guys decided to do what they did, they were already greats. Those of us who think no didn't make them do it. They have already enjoyed all of the good things that flowed from it, the adulation, the fame, the contracts and the mockery of the record books. Now they are left to deal with the baggage. I am certain they will get in. |
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Here are two weird ideas:
1.)The ONLY voting will be done by current Hall-of-Famers. and / or 2.) Elect Bonds, Clemens, McGwire, Sosa, Palmeiro, etc., but only INDUCT Them POSTHUMOUSLY! |
No on both.
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Why is it safe to assume that? If Mantle used them, he used them before he wasn't allowed to. If Aaron and Mays used them, what do you point to in support of them using greenies at the end of their careers?
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both out
It isn't so much the fact that they were using steroids, but what bothers me more is that they continued to lie about it and never admitted to what they were doing. If they had just told the truth I would be more inclined to give them a yes vote.
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For this particular instance, I really believe you can believe in the MAN more than the STATS. Isn't that refreshing? . |
Holding nose, yes.
Their stats are beyond question and they represented an era of baseball that was a part of the story. |
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Lots of players have an outlying big year later in their careers and Hank had a pair of flukey high ISO years, (surrounded by years that were normal, so that seems unlikely that he only did greenies every other year?) Plus using only one player is also fallacious. Bonds, Mac, Sosa, Palmeiro ...etc all posted long runs of their best numbers wayy late, they had double peaks. Since baseball mandated testing did you know thee is no longer a peak at 28 like before? Now , on average so of course individuals may differ, players are peaking right away and declining by 28. |
I was only responding to this:
No players had their best seasons after 35 until the roid era I wasn't making a point about the effect of greenies. |
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No and No.
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Sure, there are lesser lights in the BBHOF. That fact has nothing to do with Barry Bonds or Roger Clemons. Pete Rose outshines all those lesser lights. For how little of Pete's HOF career did he actually bet on MLB? Whatever little space of time it was, it was enough for the powers that be to throw him out of the game forever. The Black Sox were involved in throwing a best of nine World Series. Just one lousy World Series. Just---and it cost them their careers---the rest of their lives. I think that was much, much, much harsher. Barry and Roger made among the biggest boo coo during their careers. They got to keep all that. They got to play MLB as long as they wanted, pretty much. And you've got the nerve to cry the blues, and carry their torch, and demand their enshrinement. A final thought. Not often mentioned about Barry and Roger, and all "the others", were the many, many, many young guys who thought long and hard about whether they should start taking performance-enhancing drugs to increase their own power, and increase their own chances of making it into the major leagues. For a few of those wannabes, the drugs did more for them than they'd bargained for, and they died young. 'Nuf said. ----Brian Powell |
Brian how do you feel about Gaylord Perry?
Or Whitey Ford who was notorious for scuffing baseballs? Suppose Aaron and Mays and Schmidt took greenies after taking them without a script became a federal crime? Your thoughts on that? Another issue I have with the steroid /HGH disqualification is that it is inevitable guys who used are going to be voted in because they were more discreet, or perhaps better liked so trainers and such didn't rat them out. I would bet anything it's happened several times already if not more. |
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The highest paid players, or rather the players who are willing to spend the most on them, have the best masking agents. Even then, 16.5 inch forearms or a size 9 head are blatantly obvious. |
Hell no on both. And never ever too.
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In
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