Worch Cigar project
 

I've decided to undertake research on this obscure and intriguing set from the 1930s. Hopefully I'll discover enough to produce a decent article for Old Cardboard, assuming Lyman is interested. I've already figured out some stuff about the dating -- clearly they were not all issued in 1933 as often assumed.

I've now looked at most of the previous posts that mention Worches so I know some of you (Jeff, Todd, Greg, this means U) have a decent number of them. Many others have only one or a few, but any and all info is still helpful, so please check in with whatever you have.

My first goal is to verify the existence (and get scans) of as many as possible cards from the checklist. So I would be really grateful if anyone and everyone could tell me which players you own (Majors and A.A.). Scans are always welcome, but that step can be left until later if you don't already have them scanned.

Any other info you have about the set I would love to hear about as well.

Thanks in advance!

Tim

Here are a few of my faves:

Attachment 108074

Wonderful news , Tim. Thanks in advance. Love your stuff.
 

http://imagehost.vendio.com/a/204295...ONPSA5_NEW.JPG


....Getting the Stratton slabbed was a struggle , but evidently there is indeed some competence ( eventually ) down in the basement at PSA ; but you need to threaten to fly Lemke to California . Worked for me.

Here are the two known Glenn variations....
 

http://imagehost.vendio.com/a/204295...NNXTWO_NEW.JPG


....it's going to rain so I'll go dig up some more ....

My Faves
 

Cool cards, my lone example-

http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n...r-Gehrig-4.jpg

From my understanding I think Mack will be a very scarce one...

Several More
 

http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s...psa4c1ac38.jpghttp://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s...ps98bb1931.jpg
http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s...ps0555d349.jpghttp://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s...psc9d235f1.jpg
http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s...ps4a38d698.jpg

My only worch

http://www.net54baseball.com/picture...pictureid=9810

Always love to see these. One of the best of the 1930's issues. Anyone know how the cards were distributed? Thanks to all for posting the scans.
PS - Scott that is an absolute knockout Gehrig! One of my favorite Gehrig cards of all time.

Sorry Tim, If you've read all the posts here, then you know what I know. I spilled pretty much everything I know (which wasn't much), and I only occasionally chase the Millers and Saints cards nowadays. Here are a couple of the old threads.
http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...ighlight=worch
http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...ighlight=worch
http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...ighlight=worch

All I would add now is that I have seen about a dozen mailing envelopes that contained the pictures, and each one I have seen was mailed to a Minnesota resident save one that went to North Dakota (I don't have scans unfortunately). It would make sense that the company would advertise most heavily locally in Minnesota. I also own and have seen 3-4 examples of letterhead from Worch to at least one distributor in Ohio, but the message made no reference to the pictures. I have seen no letterhead or other advertising to suggest that the pictures went to tobacco distributors rather than to customers directly. I believe the general thinking is that customers sent in cigar bands in whatever quantities for the pictures, although I have never seen ads or other evidence promoting that method. I was never heavily into the set however, so my experience likely doesn't take you far.

I would also note that several on ebay from I believe John Rumierez are said to to be from 1932, and seller claims that these were previously called Wheaties cards but that a recent large find of them were found in Worch Envelopes. I have not delved into that since learning of it early this year, but OC backs this up. As you know, these are easily distinguished from the Worch's of subsequent years.

As mentioned in my earlier posts, the Worch-like pics were distributed in 1935 on a much more limited basis. All I have seen from this year were Mpls or St Paul players, leading me to wonder if they were either team issued or came from the newspapers whose credits appear on the card fronts (maybe as subscription awards).

Here are the only two big leaguers I have left (shown before)--I have a scan of a Dizzy Dean I sold to a board member, but will let him post it --and a couple of what I believe to be 1935s.
[IMG]http://photos.imageevent.com/imoverh...orchdickey.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://photos.imageevent.com/imoverh...chhartnett.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://photos.imageevent.com/imoverh...28_%202010.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://photos.imageevent.com/imoverh...rchholland.jpg[/IMG]

PM or email me with any questions, and include your m101 scans :)

Two of the Joe Hausers...probably more out there.
 

http://imagehost.vendio.com/a/204295...F_0002_NEW.JPG


The Minneapolis ( and St. Paul ) newspapers' Sports Departments may have photo archives , and the local historians and memoirs collections may be a great place to spend several years.....

Some were horizontals-- I love the Perrin shot.
 

Thanks all!
 

Hey guys,
these are great! Keep em coming, and as I mentioned, even if you don't have scans, I would like a list of your holdings--

Tim

My only example:

Some New York teams were well-represented
 

http://imagehost.vendio.com/a/204295...AMPMAN_NEW.JPG


.......strange coincidence but I also have a PSA-Graded R314 1936 Goudey Wide Pen Ben Chapman also misspelled as ''Champman'' in the flip.

Hornsby
 

Babe Ganzel
 

Hello Tim, I first posted this awhile back on a thread about the most interesting Old Judge players. Foster "Babe" Ganzel, shown below, was the son of Charlie Ganzel (who can be found in the OJ set). Far more details can be found here: http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=170286

This is my lone Worch Cigar card (and envelope).

Washington players , from a scrapbook
 

http://imagehost.vendio.com/a/204295...L_0002_NEW.JPG


.....The usual bright white borders have taken on the slight amber hue of the scrapbook pages' color.....hence they're not graded.

Some more Washington scrapbook survivors
 

http://imagehost.vendio.com/a/204295...EWMYER_NEW.JPG


...sorry about the condition but it's neat that they've even survived....

This is fun to see them all--
 

Mike, no need to apologize-- those are my kind of cards!

Keep em coming, everyone, and thanks! Hope to see many of you at the National.

Tim

The voice of the prairie states : WCCO
 

http://imagehost.vendio.com/a/204295...ASTERS_NEW.JPG



...and who can ever forget the dulcet tones of Si Seymour , Sr.-......look in his left hand.....how's that for marketing and product placement ?
....Jerry Harrington did the same for Wheaties , who sponsored the Millers' and Saints' games ......
....I thought these were scarce and rare but it turns out that Leon has three of each...

Body doubles for William Bendix/Babe Ruth
 

http://imagehost.vendio.com/a/204295...KESAND_NEW.JPG


....I don't remember Jimmy Dykes as being such a porky young feller....at first I thought these were the same player...... wait 'til you see my Homer Peel....

Spotless Butch Henline and Pinholed Pinky Hargrave
 

http://imagehost.vendio.com/a/204295...SA7WOW_NEW.JPG


...Tim , there's a gorgeous Homer Peel currently listed on Ebay ...several Worch offerings in fact , both current and '' completed ''...can you use those in your research , or is this forum more Tim-friendly ?

The scans
 

Evidently there exists another Ganzel variation
 

http://imagehost.vendio.com/a/204295...ELLAND_NEW.JPG


...I haven't seen the other Ganzel ; ..hope someone has one and can post a scan here..

Hall of Fame sluggers in the Worch Major Leagues
 

http://imagehost.vendio.com/a/204295...S_NEW_0001.JPG



The PSA Population Report for the Worch cards is spread out over both their Major and Minor League sections ; they stick to ''1933'' no matter what the actual year of issue is , no matter what evidence you produce ; in their world as far as they're concerned the name of the set is ''1933 Worch''.

SGC attempts to be more precise and accurate .

''Gill'' , just ''Gill''
 

http://imagehost.vendio.com/a/204295...CHGILL_NEW.JPG


...so it seems there is a different variation of Ernie Smith also out there somewhere , if you can trust the source used by the grader. I've not seen it ; we can hope some one can post a scan .

First names added to the label sometimes
 

http://imagehost.vendio.com/a/204295...CHHOLSCLAW.JPG


....accuracy may be in question , though. I think the flip should just reflect what is on the card ; I am very very content and pleased with the ''Gill'' card.

Worch photo variations- B &W and also sepia ?
 

http://imagehost.vendio.com/a/204295...X2ENVELOPE.JPG



....evidently two types exist for the same player in some cases....in this example , one is the common glossy black and white , while the other has a sepia tone to it ? ; also I noticed that when you wobble the sepia-toned photo/card into a strong light there is a noticeable phosphorescent presence on the dark/black color only.....there are guys on this forum that know a lot about that stuff ;
.....and although the exact same photo was used , the ''cropping'' is different by a quarter inch ( look at where his elbow is in relation to the edge of the shot , and also note the amount of heel visible....)
...Tim , you are going to have sooooo much fun...

Has anyone ever seen Estil Crabtree from this set? He was my assistants uncle, and Worch is the only card of his that I haven't even seen, let alone been able to obtain.

Lefty Grove...
 

Two variations....

http://www.bandkgreen.net/lefty_grov...cigar_back.jpg http://www.bandkgreen.net/lefty_grov...hcigar_box.jpg

Guys...I live about 1/4 mile away from Midway ballpark...where the saints currently play. In a few years they will be moving to lowertown st paul...and while this will be a huge plus for DT St Paul...it will leave a major hole in my neighborhood!

I'm ecstatic to have this original collection of Worch saints from the 33' season in my collection. After cross referencing the 2 checklists I could find...I believe the otto bluege is uncatalogued...and coincidentally the collection came with one envelope with otto bluege written in pencil on the back.

Additionally all of the cards have numbers written on the back...and a few have remnants of baby ruth wrappers which I find super cool!

Check em out! Here are a few...wanna see more?

Thanks again to all-
 

for sharing info and photos. Pete, that is very cool to have an uncatalogued one! I was sure that the existing Worch checklists are incomplete/erroneous, so this is exactly the kind of thing I hope we can discover by pooling our knowledge.

I picked up just a couple of Worches at the National, which I will post when I have had a chance to scan them. Also I just bought most of the few that remained from the last Larry Fritsch one-of-a-kind catalog. They have a few left, if anyone is interested: Crowder, Todt, Hartnett, and one or two others that I already had.

Tim...kinda strange how the SCD(or whatever it's now called) has a different checklist from the other one I found. I tried contacting Bob Lempke to adjust the checklist...but he is no longer involved. I will try the contact he referred me to .

I have 2 questions for you guys:

1...If u have Worch envelope(s)...does it have the player's name handwritten on the back in pencil?

2...Do any of you have cards with #'s handwritten on the back in pencil like mine?

''Walt'' not ''Walter ?
 

http://imagehost.vendio.com/a/204295.../WORCH_NEW.JPG


...Power corrupts ; absolute power corrupts absolutely.......the kids in the basement at PSA are running wild....

Ol' diz
 

Some more 33' Saints...marching in!

This...I find interesting.

Check out this link to a previous REA auction:

http://www.robertedwardauctions.com/.../2011/624.html

I find it interesting that the customer requested certain players including Otto Bluege...who was out of stock at the time...yet to this day the Otto Bluege card is uncatalogued.

Worch ''Holland'' : same image , but
 

http://imagehost.vendio.com/a/204295...OLLAND_NEW.JPG


... again the sepia-toned photo with the dark areas that fluoresce when tilted into the light ; the other is the standard glossy black and white ..two different graders gave him two different names , no doubt attempting to be helpful ;

...in a perfect world the standard protocol for flips would be whatever is on the card..... I still love that '' Gill'' in this thread from a couple days ago...

Found two more
 

http://imagehost.vendio.com/a/204295...Y_NEW_0001.JPG


...again , I don't trust the grader's notation 100%....

A Postcard Back Worch Joe Cronin
 

http://imagehost.vendio.com/a/204295...ELOPES_NEW.JPG


....without scrapbooks , grampas , and attics , we would have slim pickins on vintage...

Backgrounds , lettering , attributions and fonts.
 

http://imagehost.vendio.com/a/204295...CH4RAW_NEW.JPG


...I've seen very few like the Max Carey ; there are a lot like the larger Rube Benton ; Pepper Martin might be aged and faded somewhat or maybe not. Need to see another one for comparison.
...The shorter , wider Rube Benton is the same photograph but not a Worch Cigar issue.... very slightly thinner stock ; but it's big and from the 1930's so I had to have it ; anyone recognize what set it might be from ???
....It would be great if the member with those two fantastic Lefty Groves could post them again , side by side , with a tweak more contrast , so the details are defined and exposed .
Thanks , MikeGarcia

Medwick
 

stoked to have this one crossed off my HOF Rookie "want list"...

more

Can't forget Bob!

Worch Cigar Jess '' Silver Fox'' Petty
 

http://imagehost.vendio.com/a/204295...SPETTY_NEW.JPG


....Graded several months apart about five years ago..... the graders apparently used different sources for ID purposes ; one flip indicates that there is another var. which has a background , the other implies that there exists another pose....

....these two are identical except : the one with the sloppily-placed name-box and 'way too much ink has a larger projection of the subject by almost 10% ,which puts his head closer to the top border . You have to stare at them for a long time to see it . I need to get a life beyond staring at old baseball cards.

Art Ruble Var. And sloppy-bottomed Leo Norris...
 

http://imagehost.vendio.com/a/204295...HRUBLE_NEW.JPG


''No Background'' dominates the few I have had graded by PSA ..... Does SGC use any phrase up in their flips to signify varieties ?

...The Norris looks incomplete ; or perhaps rushed by the art department or the printer...

Homer And Hy
 

I have an Earl Combs. Sorry no scan.

Different ''projection'' size on some .
 

http://imagehost.vendio.com/a/204295...ECTION_NEW.JPG


.....there's no ''shiney'' of the black or dark areas visible when you tilt and wobble into a strong light but the size difference of the subject is quite pronounced ( staring at old baseball cards is not a complete waste of time sometimes..... even the WidowGarcia was impressed with this discovery.....or at least pretended to be .)

...the '39 Exhibits have one card that has a ''projection'' notation...don't know of any others...

There is a technical term for that '' shiney''aspect of some sepia-toned photos from this era.....could someone familiar with that please say what it is ?
Thanks , MikeGarcia

... Tim....awesome project idea . Thanks.

Just received '' 1930's Glossy Post Card''
 

http://imagehost.vendio.com/a/204295...Z_NEW_0001.JPG


....and so now we finally own a 1933 Worch Cigar Hugh Critz.....
....unusual for a Worch in that there is only the player's name , no team name or league initials .
...we haven't forgotten about you and your terrific project ,Tim....Happy Thanksgiving .

I used to own a handful of these. They are very cool "cards". I looked for scans that I might have, but was only able to find a sepia version of the black and white Simmons that was posted a few pages back.

http://imageshack.com/a/img811/4263/1w2u.jpg

1933 Worch Cigar Gee Walker ; Rookie Card is '34 Goudey
 

http://imagehost.vendio.com/a/204295...WALKER_NEW.JPG


... This was posted in the November pick-ups but never made it over to the Worch Project thread....sorry , Tim...better late than never.


....I love that hat on the lone fan up in the 'stands.

Lefty Grove Variations for the 1933 Worch Cigar....
 

I was lucky enough to pick up another 1933 Worch Cigar Lefty Grove card. All three cards that I have are different. These are the differences that I have found, which are shown in the picture below (I find these variations fascinating):

1. One card is black and white with the name in the box
2. One card is sepia with the name in the box
3. One card is sepia with the name in the background
4. The cards are cropped differently top to bottom (look at the distance between the hat and the top border)
5. The cards are cropped differently left to right

Based on other cards shown in this thread, I am guessing that the name in the background version also comes in black and white.

I wouldn't be that surprised if the "Name in the Box" and "Name in the Background" variations were cropped differently, but that is not the case. Different croppings are easily seen between the two "Name in the Box" cards. Interesting....

Here is the Larry Rosenthal

wow, Chris...awesome pickup!

Oh that autographed Larry Rosenthal !!
 

http://imagehost.vendio.com/a/204295...HROSENTHAL.JPG


.jaw-dropping awesome....that's got to be a ''1 of 1''......I just started cleaning this old scrapbook survivor for Tim N. to look at.

Lets see..........at one point I started to save off every image I could find of the Worch minor league cards from here, ebay, or internet in general to try to visualize the true inventory of the set and the variations as it was completely unknown... but I gave up. I may have some images to share with you offline from here, just message me... I am certain you must have accomplished far more than I did and I am VERY interesting in the final compilation. What a bizarre coincidence.

The Worch Cigars I have from the minor league series are: Andy Cohen (fielding), PSA 6.5; Joe Hauser (batting) PSA 5; Spencer Harris SGC 60; Walt Tauscher SGC 60; Fabian Gafke SGC 60........... and I don't think this is minor League but a PSA 3 Pepper Martin. Thought I had more, but that might be about right

John

Worch
 

Here's Tony Lazzeri:

1934 Gold Medal Foods And 1933 Worch Cigar Harder
 

http://imagehost.vendio.com/a/204295...HARDER_NEW.JPG

....young rising star for the Cleveland Indians , Mel Harder , who stayed with them for decades after his playing days ended.

...The Wheaties photo/card is slightly taller than the Worch Cigar issue.

I thought the 1934 Gold Medal Foods cards were of Tiger and Cardinal players only?

A very young Oral Hildebrand : 1933 Worch Cigar
 

http://imagehost.vendio.com/a/204295...EBRAND_NEW.JPG

....great action photo....

There's quite a few others....
 

Several were Cleveland Indians
 

HOF ''Pie'' Traynor and Spurgeon Chandler
 

1933 Worch Cigar Marrow And Starr
 

http://imagehost.vendio.com/a/204295...W_0002_NEW.JPG

...well-preserved images , still glossy . Seller says they had all been kept in a book by his deceased father-in-law since they were new...

Mike,

Don't know if you saw the question asked in the March pickups thread but did that Rosenthal come off the poster that sold on Ebay last month? I was the underbidder and the seller couldn't tell me whether the poster was professional (he said it had no advertising markings) but it looked like it was more than just home made. Interesting in that the few "action" poses all have photo credits (except McManus) and the portraits apparently do not.

http://www.net54baseball.com/attachm...1&d=1395076062

what did that poster sell for...if it's the same rosenthal it's a shame it was destroyed!

The '' Poster''
 

There were two posters sold as '' Worch '', one composed of Minneapolis Millers from 1935 , and the St. Paul Saints poster ; you can search the ''completed'' on E-Bay for the sale records with the original seller's information and photos and descriptions......... only some can be positively identified as '' 1933 Worch Cigar Premiums '' , most are portrait mug-shots with identical hand-printed white lettering and attributed to both the Minneapolis Star and the Minneapolis Journal : I've posted the Fabian Gaffke in the March Pick-ups , last week I believe...
---all the Saints' mug-shots have ''photo by Saint Paul Daily News'' while the two definitely-Worch issues use ''St. Paul'' instead of ''Saint Paul''....I haven't gotten a close look at the McManus yet--no time....the cleaning/restoration will take a while ; there were nineteen intact complete Saints and twenty Millers...I had been worried that they were all trimmed and pasted but as it turned out the large poster had pre-cut recessed holes and the complete photos were precisely placed onto the back , and perfectly fitted to the holes so that the white borders were not visible.....no damage beyond the 1930's thin narrow construction tape used on the edges of the blank backs to hold the photos in place......the tape is dry and brittle and the adhesive is barely holding the photos ......I'm being very careful with these as they are delicate and fragile and very much in need of a cleaning....

I tried to find them the other day but couldnt...how were they listed?

''Worch ''
 

.....'' Sports Mem.>photos ...type ''Worch'' then click on the ''sold'' on the left...

wow...great pickups...they went cheap.

Worch Cigar Russ Young
 

http://imagehost.vendio.com/a/204295...SYOUNG_NEW.JPG



.....''Mpls Star Photo''

...I can't make out the first name on the Acosta photo/card.... cap looks like a Milwaukee Brewers '30's - '40's minor league..... ?? Not a Worch... anybody know the Acosta kid ?

That is a photo of Julio Acosta from the 1940's Minneapolis Millers.

Worch Cigar Hopkins
 

http://imagehost.vendio.com/a/204295...RCHHOPKINS.JPG



Hi Tim. Hang in there. Good hunting at the National. Take lots of money though.

Thanks Mike
 

Hoping to score a few Worches again this year... I missed those ones in April, alas.

Tim

Another background variation of Joe Glenn
 

http://imagehost.vendio.com/a/204295...ROUNDS_NEW.JPG


.....the PSA flip didn't mention the ''no background'' ; it usually does.

....this makes three different Joe Glenns , all using the same photo but with three different backdrops.

...Completing this set with all the variations is getting pricey but fortunately I made a big score at the National last week when I sold three S&S ''complete sets '' to some fat kid.

Worch Andy Cohen
 

Here is an Andy Cohen

Two Tauschers, Tim.....
 

http://imagehost.vendio.com/a/204295...HERTWO_NEW.JPG


...so at least two variations of Wally Tauscher exist ; hang in there , Tim...

...