I have a McGraw (No cap) as well.

Bresnahan
 

Noticed my Bresnahan has some lines:
http://www.t206blog.com/wp-content/u...edmont-150.jpg

Just came across a Cobb on Ebay with two large back scratches:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1909-T206-Pi...item20ec9b0abc

I downloaded and posted pictures of it so they are saved here for posterity.

Great catch Bryan!! Two really strong scratch lines. Hopefully they will help identify some of the surrounding cards.

very cool
 

The cobb has been previously identified, but always great to see a large image preserved:

See this thread which shows the two Cobb backs:
http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=163034

Here's the cobb that's above the one you showed:
http://sports.ha.com/itm/baseball-ca....s#76917691903

http://dyn2.heritagestatic.com/lf?se...oduct.chain%5D

Three Finger Brown with a different scratch than the card on page one of this thread.

picked this one up at the show today. I am fairly new to the t206 game.

What does this mean? Does it affect value? Thanks for any help. Sorry like i said I am new to t206s

Has no affect on value. Those participating in the thread are using these backs in attempt to determine sheet layouts.

Nice pickup... Did you buy it raw, or submit to SGC on site?

Thanks for the info - pretty excited about it. i heard about the plate scratches but wasn't really sure what it meant. I hope i contributed.

bought it raw at the show. SGC was doing an on site special.

I'm pretty sure you were sitting at the SGC table when I picked up my cards. Very nice.

Even pics of another example contribute.

There's a lot more to figure out past the sheet layout.

The scratches can be more obvious or less even for the same card. So the plate -if it was a stone could have been resurfaced when it wore out and the scratches partly polished off. (I think it's possible, and some of the same scratches may have survived faintly into the 350 series.

Combined with front differences that might eventually lead to understanding print runs within the currently accepted ones.

While there's no real premium right now, I think eventually - like maybe 20 years from now. There will be an ability to sort of super specialize, and some fronts with the scratch may be much tougher than others. And if the scratch happened very late in production any scratch may prove to be fairly tough compared to a card without it.
It's just way too early to tell.

Steve B

Thanks for the info. Im fairly new to t206s and prewar cards so any info for me is great. I will keep my eye out for these and update if i come across any
It's just way too early to tell.

Thanks - yeah i bought it late in the day and submitted at the show. Picked it up just as dealers were packing up. Didnt expect to add another cobb but was happy about this pick up. Really thought i would get a 2 on this but can't complain

Schulte, not huge but it is there on the lower left

Another Three Finger, same pose, different scratch

Not sure if this counts but was looking thru my cards and saw a possible scratch. http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/14...4696c689b5.jpghttp://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/14...89f65f4bdf.jpg


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Just noticed my new Waddell Throwing has a scratch:

Found a nice card today with a big plate scratch, a P150 of "Turkey Mike" Donlin.

Hope this helps the cause in some way or another:

Fred, nice Donlin, with or without the scratches. :)

Thanks Sean--and I agree!:)

Evers

Here is one I just picked up, I think I saw the same scratch on an earlier scan with a different front. It also looks like it could line up to the upper right of the Donlin scratch that I saw a scan of in this thread.

Another Donohue Piedmont 150 Plate Scratch
 

No longer mine...

http://www.t206blog.com/wp-content/u...edmont-150.jpg

Kleinow
 

Not mine, but has a plate scratch.

http://www.hofcards.com/catalog/254G.jpg

Sold on eBay last week.

My new Hannifan has some interesting lines on the back. Anyone seen anything like this or have an idea of how it could have happened? Obviously it's not a P150, but I didn't feel like starting a new thread for it.

Hey Luke, it's definitely an odd one and discussed previously but not much figured out. Thanks for posting.

Luke...
 

ive seen many hanifans with that plate mark....I have passed on a ton! about 1/3 of them have that(pied 350)

Another Shipke with scratches that differ from those in posts 10 and 59.

Here is another seated Donlin that is currently listed on ebay:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1909-T206-13...-/271723912892

Just curious if anyone was working on putting the pieces of the puzzle together any longer. Haven't seen an attempt at a sheet back in awhile. I unfortunately I don't have the skills to do it.

Jobu just pointed out this scratch on my Donlin:

Still another
 

I'm sure there enough data points in this set already, but I have to join in anyway. The very first P150 card I examined showed a plate scratch.

The card is Ginger Beaumont's

Attachment 173825Attachment 173826

I still have to do some sorting, but I don't think I had Beaumont in the scans.

Steve B

Joss portrait

my pink Chase:

Flick

Ball

Chase throwing (scratch along the bottom)

Willis

Nichols

I hope this is a new one to have added to your list. I have this Sullivan with what someone told me was a printers cut mark and a plate scratch. Is this the same card that was submitted by z28jd on page 3 of this thread?
Robert

http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/...psgqs6qhwr.jpg
http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/...psgurfieca.jpg
http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/...pstl1l51dm.jpg

While not new, that's a far better scan of Sullivan than I've found. I have a poor scan of one graded Auth with the same scratch but not showing the crop mark, which was probably trimmed off on that one.

Better scans help, since I'm also looking at the fronts. Each front has a few minor differences that match a particular back. Like having the little registration marks or not.

It's a very long term project on most cards, but a few of the tough ones have specifically identifiable fronts that always match particular back flaws.

Steve B

I found three more.

O'Leary of Detroit
Jacklitsch of Philadelphia
Crawford of Detroit

I will post scans later tonight..........I need to go shovel a half foot or more of snow now.

Robert

Here are scans of the three additional ones I found. Hope this helps with your research. Note that the Jacklitsch has a second scratch near the bottom. I missed that one at first.
Crawford
O'Leary
Jacklitsch

http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/...ps2czlykkp.jpg
http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/...psshenpkqh.jpg
http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/...psgrx8rywn.jpg
http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/...psoxxucdpf.jpg
http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/...ps4y3ks99z.jpg
http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/...psgb50pjoa.jpg

I haven't looked at my list yet, but I'm almost certain I don't have Jacklitsch with a double scratch yet.

I'd suspected multiple horizontal scratches because of the way they didn't usually line up, that one proves it.

Steve B

It is the same one I posted(not the exact same card), looked back and saw I never put the name, but it is Sullivan with the same marks

Have any of these ever been married to a neighboring card or better yet, multiple cards either vertical or horizontal?

There's a few tentative pairings. That needs a bit more work. I was doing it with a puzzle I made by drawing the scratches onto some blanks I made and matching them. What's more solid are the ones with the same scratch on two different fronts. Those show how the subjects can't be from the same sheet.

Steve B

It's cool that you are attempting this Steve. Maybe one day it will pay huge dividends. I cant put together a simple jigsaw puzzle where one knows the pieces fit, I could only imagine the difficulties in putting this together.

Pat R has actually done way more work on finding them than I have. It's great to see someone take an idea and really go to work on it. The whole sheet layout thing is so complex the only way I can see is to combine all the clues and the work of probably dozens of people. Even then I don't think we'll see a solid solution for any one back anytime soon. Doing it for a stamp can take decades with blocks available, and we don't have much beyond a few provable pairs.

Keep the info coming, someday the monster will be tamed.

Steve B

Here's another Jacklitsch with the double scratch and an example of the same
scratch on two different fronts that Steve is talking about, Willis and Evers with the same scratches in three different locations that are all matching
scratches.

Nice!

Plus the first pair and last pair stack with each other. first above the last.

Steve B

A Nichollls and McGraw that match up with the Jacklitsch. There is a short
piece of the lower scratch on the Nichols through the Y that ends at the T
in quality.

Beauty! Interesting that these three are similar color scheme & style. Nice work all.

Here's Another scratch that ties Nicholls,Jacklitsch And McGraw together.
It's Hard to see with the smaller scans so I highlighted the scratches.

That is awesome Pat! Is it a coincidence the cards are so similar in colors?

Nice work Pat!

Donnie That's a good question and it may be nothing more than a coincidence about the colors.

Not that we should ignore the colors, but don't let that be a big factor. When I was researching the Sweet Caporal 460 f#42 T206s that displayed a wet sheet transfer, 11 of the 12 cards either had a yellow or blue background. I thought the last card would also have one of these two colors for the background. The 12th card was Crandall (portrait with cap) with a red background. The wet sheet transfer is harder to see on this card since half of the transfer blends into the background color.

J@ntz

Here's another Red Dooin with a horizontal scratch.

I agree with Jantz probably just a coincidence with this group having similar
background colors based on past evidence of some groupings but I think
it's important to keep an open mind on the research.

Here's another pair with matching scratches. Hahn/Wilhelm

Awesome stuff Pat!

As I said, Pat has really run with this idea and he's way ahead of me by now. And I think that's a really great thing. :D

Steve B

Crandall three high vertical scratch.

WHOA! I guess that answers the three alike row question.

Yep, for sure at least three.

Probably more than three.

Steve B

Donnie and Jantz......
 

No coincidence of similar color sequencing.....it's my understanding that this was a common practice in printing years ago.


About a year ago, I posted this hypothetical simulated sheet illustrating this similar color pattern in this 48 subject format.


Possible 350-only series arrangement of Major Leaguers....circa Spring 1910

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...SheetIm13x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...SheetIm13x.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...SheetIm13x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...SheetIm13x.jpg



TED Z
.

Ghosts from the 350 series may give us some insight that the background colors amongst neighbors were not the same.

You know, this would be a great project for a grad school student. Especially someone studying big data or something similar where they try to pull information out of seemingly random, unconnected, data sets.

Someone would have to compile all the data - ghosts, plate scratches, two-names, mis-cuts, etc and let some eager, young, stay up all night students have a go at it.

We need a NET54 intern staff!!! :D

What makes it tough is all the data is spread out over different series and backs and there is evidence that the sheet layouts were changed even among the same series and backs. Using the piedmont 150's as
an example you have a two name Lundren/Dooin and Lundgren/Ball and you have hand cuts of Wagner and Plank.

There were also some subjects that were added sometime in the middle or late printing of the 150 series one of which was Crawford (Throwing) and the plate scratches indicate he was somewhere in the middle of a sheet.

Some of the subjects on a partial sheet with Crawford (Throwing)

The scans are small, I had to reduce them because the file was to big.
The scratches are highlighted in red on the right.

From left to right it's Ball-Crawford-Cicotte-Seymour-Criss

Wow Pat.

That's fantastic.

9 vertically for each player if I'm counting right?

Of course a couple of the unfilled corners could be different players.


Steve B

Damn Pat, brilliant work!

Thanks Steve and Bryan. Steve I think some of these sheets were more than
9 verticals high of the same subject.

+1

Walsh/Seymour - Piedmont 150
Walsh/Brown, M - Piedmont 350
Walsh/Lumley - Piedmont, series unknown due to back damage

We also have Jantz's Shipke/Griffith and my oversized Shipke that clearly is at the top of the sheet. Both P150. I'll come back and add scans when i get to my computer.

Nice work Pat! Really interesting stuff!

what makes all of this very tough is the probability that sheet layouts may have changed even within a "series."

+1

The sheets very well could have been more than 9 high. But now we know P150 was most likely at least 9 high for the same subject. There's gaps and missing corners, but if they weren't the same subjects I think two name cards would be more common. So keeping it sort of simple --At least 9 high for each subject.

It's good to know a piece like that for sure.

Even if it makes me totally rethink something else I'd been working on that had me thinking each subject was 8 high.

I believe that means it's possible to find at least 9 versions of each front, most likely with very small differences but some will be easily identifiable.

Steve B

A pair of Oldrings with the same scratch and corner crop mark.

The scratch runs through the i in series the m in piedmont the A in cigarette
the u in quality and the A in factory.