Western Association Old Judges
 

In another thread, the scarcity of 1888 and 1889 Western Association Old Judges was discussed. The 1888 cards are quite scarce and the 1889 cards are scarcer than both National League and American Association cards, the ones that make up a majority of the 1889 issue. I thought it would be fun to ask people to post their Western Association Old Judges, if they have any. I am out now, but will post some later too. Have at it guys!

Denvers
 

I like this Klusman because it is a triple-variation card:

Version A: "Milwaukee" caption; "MILWAUKEE" on shirt
Version B: Handwritten "Denver" caption; "MILWAUKEE" partially blocked-out on shirt but still visible
Version C (the one you're looking at): Typeset "Denvers" caption; "MILWAUKEE" fully blocked-out on shirt

I can't think of too many other triple-variation cards!

Hoffman is probably the most difficult Denver subject (although the most difficult pose is surely the recently confirmed Dave Rowe portrait).

Keep on educating guys! Love the posts. I have increased my n172 holdings to a total of 6. Plus 1 n174. I want to add an n173 in the near future.

Great cards Scot. Let me include some 1889 managers and s neat 1888 Milwaukee two player card,

Sorry for the multiple posts. I'm not sure how to do multiple photos on one post.

For the Denver collectors

Pettee and Lowe from 1888 Milwaukee

Great cards, Jay and Scott!

Here are my eight Western Association cards, the three 1888s in the top row and the five 1889s on the bottom row. They're from seven different teams, with two St. Pauls. They're all raw, so I just slapped them on the scanner bed. (Well, I didn't literally slap them.)

http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/g...70412_0001.jpg

Great cards David! We should see if we can get a full run of the WA teams from both years. We are half way there in 1888, which will be the tough one.

Oh man, Jay. Where did you get the Rowe Denver portrait? I thought the only copy was locked-up in the Denver Public Library collection!

Wait a minute -- may be confusing poses . . .

Yep here's the one I was thinking of:

http://digital.denverlibrary.org/cdm...d/26153/rec/23

I think the one you may be talking about is the bust pose.

Quite right. My bad.

http://www.moviecard.com/aapics/lowe-oj.jpg http://www.moviecard.com/aapics/knell-stjoe.jpg http://www.moviecard.com/aapics/broughton.jpg

Great cards everyone.

Regarding 1888 (Fa & Fb) and 1889 (Fc) Western Association cards, I have another data point from a fellow Iowan who collects Iowa OJs (among other items). In studying pictures of his display case, it appears he has better than 20 Des Moines cards with only a single example, Kennedy, being an Fb, all others being issued in 1889 (Fc). He then also has a nice run of Sioux City which were only issued in 1889 (Fc). The Des Moines collection matches John's experience with Milwaukee (i.e. a dedicated effort to collect their respective Western Association teams which exists as primarily as Fb and Fc resulted in a nearly 100% Fc collection due to Fb rarity).

When I went after the Fb Western Association run (a single example from each team), it was relatively easy to obtain St. Louis Whites, Chicago Maroons, Kansas City Blues, and Des Moines Prohibitionists. The remainder, however, (Omaha Omahogs, Milwaukee Brewers, and St. Paul Apostles) were difficult. I leave out Minneapolis Millers since that team is almost exclusively Fa and not too difficult to obtain a single copy. On a side note, even the easier teams I listed have extremely difficult players/poses.

Clark Griffith.

Joe makes a good point about rarities in the 1888 cards. If you look at the Significant Rarities list in the Old Judge book (page 92), 15 of the first 17 are players who have cards solely from the 1888 WA (Veach has another card--a California League one). Additionally, if we redid the list, Taylor Shafer would no doubt be added.

According to baseball-reference.com, there were 10 teams in the 1888 WA:
Chicago Maroons
Davenport Onion Weeders
Des Moines Prohibitionists
Kansas City Blues
Milwaukee Brewers/Creams
Minneapolis Millers
Omaha Omahogs/Lambs
Sioux City Corn Huskers
St. Louis Whites
St. Paul Apostles

the 8 WA teams of 1889 were:
Denver Grizzlies/Mountaineers
Des Moines Prohibitionists
Milwaukee Brewers/Creams
Minneapolis Millers
Omaha Omahogs/Lambs
Sioux City Corn Huskers
St. Joseph Clay Eaters
St. Paul Apostles

My only contributions of the WA:

Jay already posted this player/pose, but I thought I would add to the "overall population" of Barnes :)

Pretty sure I bought this one from Jay as well...

Here is my contribution of Kansas City players with some WA Kansas City Blues mixed in there.

Rob M

Attachment 269370

Rob-Those are some beautiful cards. I especially like than 1888 WA Swartzel.

Here are a few more 1888 WA cards, and also the President and Vice President 57 years ago. I think we just need Omaha and St Paul to finish the 1888s.

That's a beautiful Johnson!

Umm, wait a minute, what did I just say?? :eek:

Rob M

Thank goodness you didn't say it was a semi-erect Johnson

great thread Jay. here are a few that i have.

David--Those are great cards. Does everyone have a Barnes portrait? 🙂

OJ Withdrawels...
 

Pure Eye Candy. Thanks for sharing fellas! We need more OJ threads...

Jay
I probably bought most of them from you. i found one more.

Some Hogs

John-I think we were missing 1889 Omaha--Go Hogs!

Nichols
 

My only one.



Angyale

Eric--If you can only have one, that's a good one to have!

Let me add another to cover St Paul in 1888. This is an interesting card in that it is an error that we didn't pick up until after the book was published. The card is pictured in the book as Varney Anderson pose 7-2. That alone would make it a rare card. However, as was later discovered, the card does not picture Varney Anderson but Peek-A-Boo Veach. As such, the card is now listed as Veach pose 472.5-6, making it an error card of another rare player.

One more and it's a pink one

My contribution
 

Here are my three contributions. My Klusman card says "Denvers" on the photo while the picture in the Old Judge book shows the word "Denver" overwritten on the card. Does this make my card an error or variation or is this normal with Old Judge cards?

Also, I have a card of Ned Williamson. In the Old Judge book, the pose I have shows his name at the bottom of the card as "E Williamson" whereas the card I own shows it as "C W Williamson" again, is this an error or variation that is new or is this to be expected?

Finally, I bought all of my Old Judge cards at an estate auction about 20 years ago. The eight cards I bought are these three, the Williamson (Chicagos), Faatz (Cleveland), Van Haltren (Chicagos) plus an Anson, Ewing and a Rusie.

It seems odd that most of my cards are of players from the Midwest and West and not from the East Coast. Since these cards were purchased in Indiana, could it mean that if these stayed local all of these years, these were intentionally distributed in the Midwest?

Attachment 269506

Attachment 269507

Attachment 269508
David

Hi David! Klusman started the 1889 season with Milwaukee and then moved to Denver. Goodwin & Company was good at updating player moves on their cards. In the case of Klusman, they did a quick update by removing the Milwaukee team designation from the nameplate of the card and writing in Denver. It was, excuse my French, a half ass job. "Milwaukee" remained on Klusman's uniform and you can still see "Milwaukee" written in for N173 identification on the photo. Some time later they corrected this with a typeset team designation. At the same time they obscured the team name from his jersey and on the lower portion of the negative. I have shown the progression below.
The wrong name for Williamson is not unusual. It happened a lot, but this should not be surprising. There were thousands of different cards being produced and the people handling the production may not have known anything about the players.
I have no idea about the distribution, although what you suggest is certainly possible.

oldjudge,

Thanks for the explanation and an example of what you were talking about.

I know with this set that when you add in all of the variations there are thousands of different cards and that what I own probably falls within those known variations. However, I also knew that there might be a small chance that I own something that nobody has seen before.

David

The Grasshopper
http://photos.imageevent.com/ruckers...e/maines_1.jpg

Jerry: That Maines is beautiful!

Love the Anderson/Veach card, Jay. I don't think too many people truly grasp how great that card is. Wish I could add some scans, but I have no WA cards on my laptop and I'm not home right now to scan them

Jay, I'm seriously considering buying you a $100 scanner :)

LOL--no computer, just a cell phone.

I thought I'd add the last piece of the 1888 puzzle, an Omaha card. This card was listed in the book, as one might expect, as a pose of Joe Miller. However, after publication, it was noticed via comparison to Tug Wilson's glass plate negative (also pictured in book) that this card pictures Tug Wilson. This led to an article by Joe and myself in Old Cardboard and the reclassification of three Joe Miller poses to being Tug Wilson cards. Thus, the number of subjects in the Old Judge sets now stands at 522. Note: For those who still believe that the name on the card rather than the image determines whose card it is, the number of subjects in the set is still 522. Wilson would not count but Struck would.

We still need an 1889 Minneapolis card to finish out the Western Association Old Judge run. I'm sure someone can fill this in. If we can do this it is really a pretty neat group accomplishment.

Here ya go!

Great card Kevin--fantastic contrast and interesting large left border. I also am a big fan of those bat at side poses. Also nice to see someone else's fingers in the image.

There are some amazing Old Judge groups and singles in the current REA. One of my favorites is the Old Judge card of baseball pioneer Bobby Mathews (I have no vested interest in this card).

Sorry for coming late to the party, but there have been a lot of distractions lately.

I'll try to post what I have periodically in some logical groupings as I unearth them from storage.

1888 Des Moines

Those are beauties Kevin, especially that scarcer Orator Shafer card.

They're all not that beautiful. Wait until you see the rest! :D

Next in line...

1888 Kansas City Blues

That gunson is great

Thanks, David, but PSA says it's only "Good!" ;)

Whoa, Kevin, lot's of KC beauties. If they ever wanna come home to Kansas City, keep me in mind!

Rob M

All beauties, but I especially like the Gunson and Reynolds cards, both with gloves on both hands. Please keep posting images!

Kevin, I see what you mean - these last 4 OJs are really crappy compared to the first 3 you posted! :rolleyes::D

I know it's not an OJ, but it is a Sioux City player (Weber) from that time period.

Hamilton
 

Didnt remember he was with KC. Guess I have 2 WAs.

Angyale

That's a beauty, Elliot!

Great cabinet! It makes you wish that Goodwin had included more portraits in the set. You should pick up an Old Judge as a companion piece.

Jay, are there WA N173's?

There are Western Association N173s that were issued in both 1888 and 1889. They are less common than N173s from NL or AA teams, however. Since N173s could be ordered from checklists included in Old Judge packs, cabinets representing teams from large population cities are amongst the most common.

Another 1888 Des Moines for the group

Geez, it doesn't get much better than that!

I would have posted these sooner, but we retirees do have to play golf, you know!

1888 Omaha Omahogs

and

1888 Chicago Maroons

You guys are killing me with these beautiful cards! At least I have one of the cards Kevin just posted, the 1888 Germany Long. 🙂

Some great cards everyone!!

Kevin, I guess Swartzel got cold after they took his picture for your OJ, so he put his jacket on.

Great Swartzel cabinet. Over the years I've seen a few N173 type images on blank cabinets, but not that often.

That's another beauty, Elliot!

The players with that coat on always make me chuckle. They sort of remind me of a chef's jacket.

Mr. Cody

Nice card of Mike Cody. Every time I see those uniforms I wonder how uncomfortable they must have been on a hot summer day.

Oh, Kevin--great cards as always. You have some beauties. Also, good luck to anyone going after the great Old Judges in REA. Maybe there will be images of some new acquisitions going up on Monday.

Hello Eric,

Great card of Hamilton, but his debut in 1889 was with the American Association Kansas City Cowboys. The Western Association KC Blues had folded by 1889 and can only be found in the Old Judge set in 1888. In 1888, there would be both American Association (KC Cowboys) and Western Association (KC Blues) cards in the set. Goodwin & Co. didn't help the consumers/collectors by signifying the difference between these two teams like they did for other duplications within a city (Chicago cards are either listed as "Chicago" for NL or "Chicago Maroons" for WA, St. Louis cards are either listed "St. Louis" or "St. Louis Browns" for NL or "St Louis Whites" for WA).

There are N173 cards for WA teams, but as Jay stated, they didn't have the same following as the popular players from big cities so they are few and far between. I think I've seen N173 examples from just about all the Western Association teams, one currently being auctioned by REA (1888 Hunkey Hines N173).

Love all the nice Fb cards posted by Jay, Kevin, and others. An interesting note on Kevin's Kansas City Blues, the last three (Gunson, Reynolds, and Swartzel) would all move to the AA KC Cowboys in 1889. Each of them would have their 1888 photos with the Blues re-issued in 1889, then as Cowboys. While the 1889 AA KC cards are relatively easy, those Fb KC Blues can be very tough.

Love the Klusman progression Jay, love the Kansas City collection Rob (especially the Pete Conway cabinet).

Figure I should contribute. I gave up on collecting WA long ago, sold and traded away what few I had. The examples I now have typically came as part of package deal while trying to obtain a Detroit card. I only have one Fb, all the rest being Fc (not surprising). I'll also post the Fa vs Fb vs Fc cheat sheet that I previously shared to help those that might be scratching their heads.

My few

Kenny-A beautiful Lowe and some nice HOFers.
Joe--Was that Nicholson-Maroons ever yours? That is a scarce one
I thought I would add a nice card for our Denver fans:

BTW, as an aside, even though all of Ted Kennedy's 1889 cards list him with Omaha, he in fact spent the entire season with Des Moines. He started the 1888 season with Des Moines, then moved to Omaha later that year. For 1889 he returned to Des Moines. As far as I can tell, Goodwin and Co never picked up the move back to Des Moines. Please correct your Old Judge book bios as we incorrectly had him spending 1889 with the Omahogs.

That isn't a Dave Rowe you see everyday, beautiful!

I've had Maroons but none of the real tough ones, certainly no Nicholson.

Ah, because the Nicholson was in your Fb examples

A couple more from storage:

1888 Saint Louis Whites

Great Whites' cards. Speaking of the Whites, did anyone else notice the Hines Whites N173 in REA? If I'm not mistaken that is the first Whites Old Judge cabinet I have ever seen. Unless I missed one, there are also none in the Cartophilic Society listing. It makes sense that they should be rare, as the team folded after less than two months.