Shanus-REA suit
 

We have no fancy PR firm (and don’t need one) and I can’t discuss details of a lawsuit that is filed against me because it just isn’t done, but I can assure any and all that this has NO merit and at least I can post the link:

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/mo...sold_him_.html


We only learned of this “suit” late last night. Our attorney Barry Kozyra provided this statement (too late to be included in the story but maybe it will be updated, have no idea):

"Robert Edward Auctions, LLC and Robert Lifson deny the allegations of the Complaint filed by Corey Shanus. The Complaint contains numerous misstatements of fact and inaccuracies as Mr. Shanus must know as well as false suppositions. The Complaint is frivolous as a matter of law and REA and Mr. Lifson will seek full redress through the courts for damages, attorney fees and costs from Mr. Shanus and anyone acting in concert with him or on his behalf."


Sincerely,

Robert Lifson

Robert Edward Auctions LLC

OK Here is the guinea pig thread
 

With Leon's new rules.

My only comment is that knowing both parties, granted I know Rob better and for a longer time than Corey, this gets worked out. I agree with the future posts after I wrote this, I'm rooting for the truth to come out and win.

Regards
Rich

Seriously
 

Who in the world wrote that. They need some spelling and grammer checks cause even I saw words missing and words spelled wrong. Pretty bad when your running a story like this and it makes me feel like the person who wrote the story didn't have a clue about anything.

I know I have read about some Nash stuff in the past and really can't comment on the claims. I hope the matter can be resolved quickly as we have enough drama around this hobby already.

James G

"when you're running a story like this ...."

i'm conflicted...usually there's a clear bad guy i root against in these cases. so i'm rooting for the truth here.

lol

I'm rooting for "hin."

Haulsofshame.com had breaking news in my email today...surprisingly it wasn't this story.

Dan-That link was already posted in the Goodwin thread. Pretty busy news day for a quiet hobby.

Never a dull moment.

Wow...looks like I have some catching up to do. I pretty much stopped reading that thread when it went to the Peck and Snyder discussion.

If there's 1 thing I have learned in this business is not to trust somebody who has a song called pop goes the weasel

At least Charlie Sheen no longer collects.

Not trying to pick on the guy, but if you think Pop Goes the Weasel was bad(sadly, I still kinda like the song), you should check out Gas Face. It's absolutely horrendous, and to make matters worse, it has Gilbert Gottfried in the video.

This story reminds me of why I don't collect memorabilia, aside from a few game-used (?) bats. Purely in the abstract, and not taking sides with either party here, there are just too many times where big bucks are paid for what turns out to be nothing more than a story. Stories are almost always subject to dispute. Joe Jackson game-used uniform, anyone? I certainly would not even begin to question Rob Lifson's character, and I don't know Corey at all, let alone well enough to even begin to comment on the particulars here. The prior poster was right: Let's just root for the truth to come out!
Secondly, is anyone suprised to see that O'Keeffe is the author of this piece? This gentleman has made it abundantly clear in his book, "The Card," that he doesn't understand the attractibility of the collectibles our hobby is founded upon, and his dedication to pressing (pun intended) his perspective upon everyone else he can reach is beyond rationale dispute.

Larry Smith

I'm with you Larry; I have some autographed balls, jerseys, etc. but nothing I spent enough $ on to upset me if I found out they were fake.

After reading the article all I could do is picture six experts being called, all with different "expert" opinions on the dates (kind of like the experts on the economy, stocks and the weather).

Dan Paradis

I wasn't that familiar with Peter Nash, but this article....
 

..... for me adds a little perspective to the issue at hand.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/200...ash/index.html

Key quote from the article:

For all its many upstanding, passionate collectors, the baseball-memorabilia subculture is also a notoriously seedy shadowland of Mametesque schemers and dreamers, thick with forgeries and thefts, conflicts of interest, dubious "authenticators," shill bidding, card doctoring and any number of other dubious practices. "The hobby is mostly filled with low-life hucksters, some of whom grow up to own important auction houses," says a longtime collector of early baseball material. "You can count the number of people who are smart and educated and honest on one hand."

I do hope this works itself out. But oh my from rapper to baseball historian expert etc. LOL!

A Hand With Many Fingers
 

"The hobby is mostly filled with low-life hucksters, some of whom grow up to own important auction houses," says a longtime collector of early baseball material. You can count the number of people who are smart and educated and honest on one hand."

This statement is patently absurd, and offensive. This hobby/business if full of smart, educated, and honest collectors and dealers. I doubt the percentage of bad apples is any worse than any other field: politics, law, religion, finance, medicine, etc., and probably a good deal cleaner than many.
Hank Thomas

Hank, I can assure you that there is a higher percentage of people in the hobby/business with criminal records than there are in the field of politics, law, religion, finance and medicine.

Collector sues over 'foul balls'

By BRUCE GOLDING

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/m...iFWJ3fGZPM9IMK

Regardless of the percentage of crooks in the hobby, I've always understood the parties in this case, whom I don't know, to be two of the hobby's "good guys." For their sake and that of the hobby, I should hope for an amicable resolution.

With regard to criticism of O'Keeffe, he's a journalist publishing a story he believes to be of public interest. He owes the hobby only the duty of getting it straight.

Writing headlines for the New York Post must be one of the best jobs there is. Still an all-time favorite from way back when: "Reds' Brezh Dead."

Kudos to Dan Markel for a great, informative post. Boy, what a mess!

Jeff and I are both lawyers, with my understanding being that he's been quite successful in trying some very tough, high profile cases, and I applaud him for that, while I focus primarily on rather routinely handling some high dollar appeals in the Michigan appellate courts and US Sixth Circuit Court of Appeals in Cinncinatti. However, I've seen some real scam jobs and out and out criminal behavior in the practice of law also, present company most definitely excepted. I've posted before about studying the area of coin collecting for a period of more than 20 years, because I think that its 120-year head start as an organized hobby over ours gives a reasonably accurate preview of what ours is likely to go through (collectors thinking patterns seem remarkably similar, whatever their focus). Coins have also experienced a huge number of frauds and scammers over time. I think its just indigenous to human nature whenever big $$$ are out there.

Our hobby will overcome and survive, however, just as other fields of endeavors have, although perhaps not without suffering many more black eyes along the way.

With respect to Mark's comments on O'Keeffe, I would respectively disagree. Although I read and enjoyed "The Card," and there is no question he writes well, I think there is little question he has an agenda to push, just as many writers in various fields do, and writes with an easily discerned animus towards the hobby. That said, participating in this hobby has always been caveat emptor, and most hobbyists thoroughly understand that. If they don't, heaven help them, as the unsavory characters lurking out there certainly won't.

Best to everyone,

Larry Smith

"Headless body found in topless bar"

Another Classic
 

"Morris the Cat goes to Heavenly Din-Din"

Perhaps if one were to open the door to O'Keefes bedroom closet, one might find stacks upon stacks of Joe Charboneaus, Ron Kittles, and Cory Snyders. Not to mention the boxful of Starting Lineups in the back.

Mike

Tiger Admits: I'm a Cheetah.

Mike O'Keeffe is a solid reporter. I deal with NY reporters on a daily basis and Mike is as good as there is in the business. Sometimes reporters make you happy, some days they make you unhappy. All you hope for is a fair shake and Mike gives you that.

As for the claim that Mike has an agenda it really depends on one's perspective at the time -- just ask Doug Allen. When his lawsuit against Dave Forman was leaked to Mike I suspect Doug was a big O'Keeffe fan; after he got his ass handed to him and Mike reported it, Doug suddenly decided that Mike had it out for him.

Dirty Business?
 

You can assure me? You can prove this? I'm guessing the percentage is about the same.
Hank

Really? Lots of lawyers, doctors and financiers with felony convictions? Ever think that these individuals are often instantly barred from their professions if convicted of a felony?

Wouldn't it be easier for you to say "I have no idea what the hell I'm talking about?"

Shanus-REA suit Reply to Thread
 

What a surprise! Seems like this will be happening more often now

I am hoping there will be a resolution in the near future, tough hearing things like this in a hobby that is made to be fun for everyone.

Jimmy

It's a hobby, sure, but one where many otherwise intelligent people are ruled by wishful thinking instead of common sense and caution; and that is just fine for those unethical folks on the selling side who take advantage of their misplaced trust.

Just like our law practices!

No criminals on Wall Street?
 

Wow. What kind of fantasy world do you live in, where there's no medicare fraud, no legal conflicts of interest, no unethical Wall Street behavior that drives the economy into the toilet? There's no criminal or antisocial behavior among the professional classes, is that what you're saying? And I don't appreciate the insult, either. How smart are you that you can't even carry on a civil conversation?

If an MD loses his license for committing a felony that means he was committing a felony while a licensed MD.

Smarter than you. Yes there are tons of unethical behavior in the areas of law, finance, medicine. But to suggest that the amount of wrongdoers in these areas is the same as in the baseball card hobby is laughable. Look at the top auction houses: Heritage, Legendary, Memory Lane, Mile High. How many of the heads have either been convicted of fraud or are targets of federal grand juries?

And David, I can assure you that the percentage of doctors convicted of felonies is a tiny fraction of of a fraction of 1%. Want to bet it's higher in our hobby?

Finally, our hobby is completely unregulated, with no bodies of oversight -- unlike the areas of law, medicine, finance, etc. Doesn't that at least give you a slight clue as to the relative incidence of bad behavior?

Perhaps the SEC could regulate the hobby. They've done a bang-up job with their current mandate. :cool:

That's what we need, a trade association!! Oh wait, don't we have one already?

Brian, yes, as soon as Madoff gets out of prison perhaps the SEC can take over Marshall Fogel's watchdog group. They've done such a bang-up job in the 8 months they've been protecting us from the bad guys in the industry. Is there any truth to the rumor that JP Cohen will take over the reins from Marshall in August?

Back to O'Keeffe. No problem with having an honest and civil disagreement but I honestly don't see how anyone can reliably determine his motives. If I had to speculate, I should think they are more along the lines of selling papers and advancing his career than an animus toward the hobby [Whatever would be his reason?]. In any event, it makes no difference to me inasmuch as, in my view, he owes the hobby only truthful reporting.

In other words, I don't think any journalist has an obligation of "balanced" reporting. One is free to write of the more positive features of our hobby, and I should hope some would. I suspect, though, that such reporting sells fewer papers.

I just wanted to stick my nose into this conversation to say.....

Hank is one of the nicest guys I have met in this hobby - and I (like everyone else should) look forward to stopping by his table whenever he is at a show. Not knowing Hank's circle of friends in the hobby..... I could only guess that he already knows who can be avoided and has surrounded himself with other nice, intelligent, and honorable hobby participants.

I would also love to come up with some sort of lawyer-joke-zinger to throw into this thread...... but I fear a Taddy retort would put me (understandably) on the losing side of the exchange. :D

All I know is I am anxiously awaiting the REA catalog on or about April 12. :)

A final (?) thought on the trade association, as the subject seems to continue to crop up on the Board. I'm obviously "odd man out" in assuming there exists sufficient integrity among the majority of auction houses (and dealers) to make such an association beneficial to collectors.

I will confess to being biased as, given the right circumstances, I wouldn't mind being considered for a position in the hobby. [As this has not developed, I have instead turned to teaching, and now a group of unfortunate students in Alexandria, Va, must suffer through my course in legal writing.]

Having said that, I fail to see the downside to such an association, although I recognize that others might argue that it would offer a patina of legitimacy to a corrupt enterprise. "Everyone" agrees that law enforcement, at both the federal and state level, has insufficient resources to police the hobby effectively. Just look at how long it's taking the FBI to conduct the Mastro investigation. And, civil litigation is too costly and cumbersome except to resolve high-dollar disputes.

While a system of self-policing would no doubt be imperfect, it seems to me that if it comprises honest people invested with sufficient authority, and if the costs are borne by the industry and not passed on to collectors, then collectors stand nothing to lose by offering their support.

And how would you insure that this group was made up of honest auction houses and dealers? Who would be the judge of that?

I will stand with Rob on this one.

Well, I was thinking of changing my last name to Landis...

full name please
 

You can stand with whomever you want to, doesn't matter to me, but you need to have your full name here or edit your comment out. Nothing personal and I am not taking sides. Also, you are one of the few users that registered the first 2 days of our new software and I need your USER ID, First and Last Name and day time ph# that will be called to verify, sent to me as a PM or to leonl@flash.net. Otherwise you will not be able to post anymore. It's just the rules and nothing personal. thanks

quick break in the action:
 

I was in UT last week and it was so cold, I actually saw a lawyer with his hands in his own pockets.


now, back to your regular scheduled programming.

Puhleeze, we have all heard all the lawyer jokes :(

How Many Criminals?
 

I sure wish I was so smart that I could claim a certainty without being able to cite actual facts. Tell me exactly how many hobby figures you know to have criminal records, then? Not under investigation or suspicion, but actual convictions? And just to bring it back to my original point, I was only trying to say that there's an enormous amount of hobby activity transacted honestly every day online, at shows, in auctions, between individuals, etc., and that, in relation to all of that, the extent of illegal and unethical behavior is actually quite small, just as it is in the other fields mentioned for all the justified publicity the dark side gets. As for your self-declared brain power, at least I'm smart enough not to resort to childish name-calling that would expose me as a jerk. And thanks for the props, Joe, it's people like you and so many other classy individuals I know in the hobby that prompted me to defend its reputation.
Hank Thomas

Hank -

I should also say - I very much enjoy breaking bread and talking hobby talk with Jeff and I consider him a good friend.

I see both of your point of views - and I think much of it is a matter of individual perspective.

As heated as the exchanges you and Jeff are having (or it seems heated anyway), I actually read through it and think that you are not fundamentally disagreeing / just looking at things from different experiences.


I am looking forward to better weather, more card shows, and more enjoyment of this hobby.


And, as was said earlier in this thread - I am looking forward to receiving the REA catalog.

REA catalog
 

I just hope my catalog gets here before the government shuts down on Friday...I'd hate to think one of the year's big highlights is stuck in a mail truck in a parking lot somewhere...

Take Care,
Geno

I'm pretty sure that the mail won't be effected.

The post office is a corporation and will not be affected by a govt shutdown.

Obviously, there are no guarantees Peter.

I tend to share Hank's view that the vast majority of people in the hobby, including auction houses, conduct themselves in an ethical manner. To the best of my knowledge, these auction houses, with the notable exception of Mastro, have continued in business for significant periods of time because they continue to be patronized. And, their patrons are, by and large, savvy collectors and dealers who I should think would not risk substantial sums of money if they perceived a significant likelihood of being defrauded.

But, all that aside, my primary point is that, so long as collectors are not funding the trade association (directly or indirectly), they stand nothing to lose by offering support and letting the chips fall where they may.

Duly note I wasn't really suggesting that there are major felony problems within the medical, legal and accounting systems-- I assume there aren't. I was just making a technical point. Clearly the legal and medical fields have good self-policing systems that the baseball card hobby does not. Though I assume the legal and medical fields policing systems are in part defined by outside laws.

Hank, you want me to cite facts about how many hobby figures have actual criminal convictions? That's a laugh, try reading the board it's all there. And why not open your eyes a bit to the reality in this hobby? But then again you're probably one of the guys who thinks that Doug Allen and Bill Mastro are good guys because they send out free catalogs.

I'm sorry I hurt your feelings but to be honest -- I'm not really sorry. You can choose to fantasize about the tiny bit of fraud which exists in the hobby and I'll keep warning people about the fraud I see which is pervasive. I'm willing to bet, however, that only one of us has real knowledge of the widespread nature of the fraud in the hobby from shill bidding to card alterations--and it is not you.

...

Recent lessons to be gleaned from the coin hobby
 

How true.

As posted many months ago on this forum, PCGS, the coin grading division of Collectors Universe (also PSA's parent company), filed a suit against at least six of their own authorized coin dealers (and perhaps even 10 additional dealers) for submitting doctored coins.

http://www.coinlink.com/News/counter...universe-pcgs/


Recently, this lawsuit was thrown out of Federal Court. The reasons why were not exactly clear and I've read a myriad of message board posts and blogs that seem to be more speculative than factual stating things such as CU couldn't sue someone for failing to do their own duty or that they weren't truly fraud victims, etc.

http://www.coinworld.com/articles/fe...-doctors-suit/


The interesting thing was that 3 of the 6 defendants were members of PNG, the Professional Numismatists Guild which has an extensive Code of Ethics including issues concerning coin doctoring and misrepresentation. However, as I recall reading, shortly after the CU lawsuit was filed, there was a problem that there were no clear guidelines regarding what exactly constituted coin doctoring versus cleaning, etc. As a result, PNG drafted a definition of what exactly entailed "coin doctoring" and when the members voted recently to add this definition to their guidelines, the members voted it down - supposedly because it wasn't clear enough.

http://www.pngdealers.com/item.php?i...&category_id=2


So in summary, if the card hobby wants to have some accountability and credibility, they're going to have to do more than make dealers and auction houses form some professional association. For starters, they will have to set some clear, unambiguous guidelines what constitutes fraud or what is ethical and what isn't in the card hobby regarding alterations and disclosure issues. That in itself could be a daunting task since there have been some threads on this board that have debated those issues ad nauseum regarding soaking, cleaning, pressing, etc. In my cynical opinion, I don't see this happening. I hope I can be proven wrong.

I've put a link to a pdf of the document below. I'm going to try and get my copy autographed by Nash, Lifson, and Henry Chadwick.

http://bit.ly/gLFStq

Also important is that this lawsuit raises the issue of "shill bidding" we've been hearing about for years. If it plays out the discovery would be fabulous.

Wow.. I read every word in the 18 pages. This is going to be interesting. Thanks for posting it.

Dan

You're a Winner!
 

Yes, Jeff, you're smarter than everybody else, and you're the only one with the "real knowledge," and you don't mind insulting people because you're so tough, and so on and so on. You win. Feel better now? Of course there's fraud in the hobby, and as an honest dealer I've always applauded every effort to expose it and stop it, including by Mike O'Keeffe, who is a friend of mine. I jumped into this originally only to dispute the assertion that "the hobby is mostly filled with low-life hucksters," a characterization I know to be false. By the way, Jeff, I'll be set up at tables 509-513 at the upcoming Oaks show and with Kevin Keating at the National if you think you're tough enough to show up and insult me to my face.
Hank Thomas

Hank, stop whining. And you're challenging me to a fight? Are you 12? Seriously? Why don't you take a pill and calm down.

And you challenged my assertion that there is a higher percentage of criminals in this hobby than in the fields of law, medicine, finance and the clergy. You were wrong when you said it and you're wrong now -- and that won't change no matter how hard you stamp your feet in frustration.

A tough guy behind a keyboard...
 

...and you're always going to be right, right or wrong. What a jerk.

Unethical behavior in the Indusrty
 

I have been involved in the hobby for about 30 years and still enjoy it. However, I have found it to be a virtual "Wild West" where just about anything goes and one must constantly be on his toes from a knowledge perspective. Otherwise, you will get burned, eventually. Unfortunately, it has been my experience that a lot of, if not out-and-out unethical, at least questionable practices exist in the hobby. I am in agreement with Calvindog that percentage-wise, these practices are much more prevalent in the sportscard/memorabilia business than in any of the professions mentioned. I don't have statistics; this has just been by observation and experience over the years. Of course, there is going to be unethical behavior in all professions. We are dealing with human beings, afterall. I enjoy and participate in the hobby, but I do so with my eyes open.

Hank, I never said I was a tough guy; I just said you were childish to threaten me. If I give you my lunch money will that make it better?

Hank- have to agree with jeff. This business from a percentage standpoint has been extremely tarnished with bad apples in the barrel. While there are other issues with our political and criminal agendas, i do believe it pales to the other, thanks

I'll take the lunch money. I can probably get two lunches out of it here in Seattle.

Oh, Man! Two very good, very knowledgable hobby guys--can't we just agree to disagree? You should have seen the three-judge panel I had on a Michigan Court of Appeals case yesterday! Now there was some real cause to get feisty (I don't usually have to be cautioned about pounding the podium for emphasis in the course of oral argument, and reminded I wasn't giving closing argument to the jury)!!!

As Adam would say, it's just cardboard, dammit!

Larry

Wow, you actually get to have oral argument in state court appeals? I think the last time I did that was about 20 years ago. I go argue writs (in front of a referee) out at the state Supreme Court fairly frequently, but they practically never hear oral argument in actual appeals. My partners and I get to go visit with the esteemed jurists in the 10th Circuit occasionally (not by choice), but that never happens in state court. I remain conflicted about whether or not that's a good thing.

It seems to me about 1/3 to 1/2 of the auction houses have had "problems". Way, way higher than the other professions.

Delete.

I'm still waiting for this story to hit the "Breaking News" at the Hauls of Shame website. Seems like this kind of story is right up his alley...I wonder why he isn't posting it??

What I'd like to see is how many of these auction house honchos would be willing to take polygraph tests to assure the collecting community that they've never engaged in shill bidding, card doctoring (actively themselves or knowingly through a third party), allowing items of questionable authenticity to be embellish as the "real deal", consigning their own items without disclosure, and the list goes on.

As I recall, recently one auction house boss was already given that challenge on this board to deny just one of those issues on a polygraph and best my knowledge never accepted that offer to "clear the air".

Larry --this reminded me of trying a case out in a country courthouse when the judge called us to the bench. I leaned on the bench and the judge said " don't lean on my bench " then he turned to my opposing counsel, a local, and said " I learned that from your daddy !" I went to the hallway and settled the case.

I would also like to see the owners and managers of third party authentication companies take these polygraph tests as well. It would be nice to find out who the true good guys are.

I'd also like to see certain posters on this board take IQ tests.

I would have to believe that there are few auction houses where shilling hasn't happened, and those few would be new ones. But there are probably only a few that have done the shilling themselves. In theory I could consign anywhere, and have a friend bid on my items. Pretty hard to prove, and harder to stop.

I also have to believe that every auction that's been around long enough has handled an item or two that is either fake, altered, or stolen. Stolen stuff because the item isn't widely known as stolen. Altered stuff - Maybe the alteration was done well enough to pass inspection at one time, but newer technology has made it possible to detect the alteration. And some fake stuff can be well done enough to get past many experts. Nobody can catch 100% of the questionable items unless they have access to a lot of lab gear and time. And even then some stuff would slip through.

The need for third party graders to not buy or sell cards is a tough one. Yes, it's a conflict. But I wouldn't expect someone with no knowledge or interest in cards to be able to authenticate them. Stamps are authenticated by experts in a particular issue. All of them collect, and buying and selling are a part of that.

Steve Birmingham

Forget the Cowbell... What this lawsuit needs is more Halper!