Mike, have you happened to notice Gary's affinity for 48 Leafs? Just saying. Probably his favorite set.

I think anyone who reads my posts knows I was done with PWCC a long time ago. :mad:

Your analogy would be better if that were even remotely true.

Despite the mob mentality that has taken over this site against PWCC long before this scandal hit, I trust that when most members read your posts and mine it will be clear who lacks intelligence, even if they disagree with my opinion on this issue.

There is no mob mentality. There are people who are fed up with fraud. Big difference. To try to demean those people by mischaracterizing them as a mob is only to demean yourself. As for Kenny, to suggest he lacks intelligence is beneath you, Jesse.

ROTFL. I guess we will just have to agree to disagree and hopefully never interact again. At this point that would probably be best.

Here is a morbid and sad story but perhaps better analogy. 25 years ago today Nicole Brown Simpson and Ronald Goldman were brutally killed. I’m now a group of 12 people we’re not able to find OJ guilty.

Some people just refuse to believe in anything they didn’t see happen no matter what the evidence.

I understand where you're going, but the prosecution really screwed up that case.

Scott,

Years ago I remember reading in the LA Times that Lasorda's Italian Restaurant, in Pasadena, on Fairoaks was shut down for 2 weeks because the rat urine exceeded the allowable levels. I was shocked that there isn't "zero tolerance".

I basically stopped activities with PWCC when the 2016 "buyers group" / shilling issues came to my attention and I received corroboration of what was being done by PWCC.

I can't be 100% sure that I have not purchased anything from them since that time without checking my records, but I am sure I haven't bought anything significant from them.

As for consigning, my last consignment was probably in 2014.

As an aside, the OJ thing really hurt me. I grew up in SoCal and was a huge OJ fan when he was at USC. My folks took me to the 1969 Rose Bowl where OJ was great and no one else at USC was. I was 8. When we played backyard football, whoever was the RB was OJ; the defender was either Deacon Jones or Butkus, depending on where you played. The QB was generally Roman Gabriel, maybe Unitas. Watching that white Bronco chase was pretty bad. Did you know that Willie Mays mentored him? I didn't until not too long ago, but that is what I've read. Evidently it didn't take all that well.

In any event, much as I would like to deny it, the evidence was pretty damning. He had really good lawyers and, as Peter said, the prosecution screwed a fair amount of stuff up. Judge Ito was also not up to the task. I watched a lot of that trial as a young lawyer. Doesn't matter, he was found not guilty of murder, which IMO is exactly why he was later hammered in Nevada. What goes around comes around I guess. Karma or something.

I watched a lot of the trial as well and I was astonished at the glove episode which gave Johnny Cochran his famous line in closing. What a colossal mistake that the veteran prosecutor Marcia Clark never in a million years should have allowed to happen. And the decision not to put in evidence of the attempted flight was also, to me, inexplicable.

Yeah. You don't do stuff in trial unless you know its going to work. I saw that firsthand when I second chaired (or maybe third -- there were two of us who were young lawyers from the same class) a trial that involved a kid who got blown up and sustained 3rd degree burns over 78% of his body and lived. It was amazing. Walton v. Black & Decker. Greg Walton is now a plastic surgeon, which is also amazing. In any event, the defense in that case had basically three defenses and did an in-court demonstration to prove how what we said couldn't possibly have happened. Instead, it destroyed them and proved our case. Ed Abel, my senior partner at the time, was the most brutal cross-examiner I still have ever seen. He just killed the defense expert to the point that the jury was laughing at him whenever he answered a question. It was ugly.

Ten million dollar verdict in 1989, all of which was collected. Wish I'd had a bigger part of that case. But I didn't. Life goes on.

OK well all of that said, couldn’t PWCC and PSA/CLCT have good lawyers, and whoever is going after them could swing and miss, and the whole thing could blow over like past scandals?

Somehow in the face of the scandal the stock is up.

Also the survey shows we at Net54 are not representative of the common collector because PWCC continues to have successful auctions (surely there’s no shilling in their auctions.

Good point. Why would you buy from someone who says they got their cards from PWCC.

That the provenance doesn't bother a buyer "ain't worth a hill of beans" when he turns to try to sell to collectors who do care about that provenance. And many collectors will consider the provenance a reflection on the seller's general ethics and care about authenticity. Irrelevant to the authenticity, "I got my autographs from Coach's Corner" isn't a good selling point or a good look for a seller.

Based on what I've seen over the years well before this scandal I disagree. Anything involving pwcc gets blown out of proportion in my opinion. People seem to enjoy piling on with whatever the current issue is. I do understand why guys are worked up over this scandal. But directing all or most of the anger at pwcc strikes me as a mob mentality.

As for Kenny I have rarely encountered intelligent people who need to resort to calling another person a noron over a difference of opinion. He may be a genius for all I know I don't remember reading any post from him before today. But from this limited sample size I stand by my assessment.

You obviously are reading threads/posts selectively. There is major anger directed at PSA and Gary and card doctors. And as for PWCC, people are appalled, there is no enjoyment in it whatever and there never has been. Labeling someone you disagree with as a "mob" is a classic tactic of a demagogue but I won't get any more political other than to say read the newspapers. Maybe the reason they have had so many issues over the years is that they were in the wrong.

The problem for me is no matter what corner of the hobby I turn to to buy stuff there's fraud. I've been burned buying at shows, in online auctions, at the National, and from multiple ebay sellers. Fraud in this hobby is EVERYWHERE. It's too easy, and the odds of actually getting caught and going to jail are slim.

What I wonder is how you can be a long time member of this forum, having seen all the fraud over the years with autographs, shill bidding, etc. and STILL participate in it if you're as upset with this latest episode as you claim to be? What's it going to take to finally turn you away? I don't mean this to sound snarky, but, seriously, if this stuff upset me like it seems to upset many of you, I'd go collect barbed wire - people do, you know.

Here's a fun exercise for anyone going to the National this year. Ask for a receipt when you buy something. You'd think something that costs $1000 would at least warrant a receipt, wouldn't you? The answer tells you all you need to know about this hobby.

Would this have been too hard?

I wasn't buying from or consigning to PWCC or submitting to PSA in the first place.
I will no longer buy from/consign to PWCC or submit to PSA.
I will continue to buy from/consign to PWCC and submit to PSA.
I haven't decided.

Let's not be disingenuous.

Suppose I won't buy from PWCC but will submit to PSA. Or vice versa? Which answer do I choose? David you're being ridiculous. Stop. Start your own poll.

You're being ridiculous. You say this...

... but then only include PWCC in your poll. If they're all share in the blame equally, why not include them equally? If they're all equal, why would you do business with one and not the other? I don't get that.

But I do get this. Your poll proves Jesse right. It really is a mob mentality.

Taking out the top line of the poll, since they weren't customers to start with, it is close to 50/50 who will buy/undecided vs won't do business again. BTW., I think a LOT of people share Jesse's views but won't voice them due to what has transpired in this thread. Members piling on. (and in their mind rightfully so)....but it is still piling on. Trust me on that.

Peter- you know how I feel from our conversations on the phone.

Here is the one thing I have thought, and like Jesse, could absolutely be wrong.

Lets say Brent KNEW he was selling altered cards from Moser. I think that is a given. What isn't a given, is that he actually thought what he was doing was wrong., By almost all of his statements it seems he was drinking Moser's Kool Aid about what is allowable or not. Still guilty but not quite the same.
If I were his lawyer my first defense exhibit would be everything Brent has said. To me, and I think the law pertaining to sentences (at least), there is a difference between knowingly doing something wrong and doing something wrong but not knowing it was wrong when you did it. I am NOT defending any actions, only stating a point of view. And I am not saying Brent/PWCC is innocent, I am just saying, in my view, there is a reasonable chance, based on what I have seen and my very recent conversations with Brent, that he thought he wasn't doing anything wrong. On the other hand Moser knew what he was doing was wrong ie... Specific Intent. And I think PSA needs to step up their game a whole lot.

Yes, that does say it all, also if you pay in cash I can give you a discount(wink/wink).

The problem is saying nothing has led us to this point in the hobby. People need to be loud and hopefully get rid of some of the scum in the hobby.

I honestly can't figure out how anyone that loves the hobby can't be happy about having less fraud, unless they are part of it.

As for the poll, I have been avoiding anything PWCC for many many years and see no reason to change now.

You're tying yourself in knots Leon. Gary did not convince him trimming and recoloring and sharpening corners were OK. I promise you.

Agreed on Gary and PSA.

I didn't say that. Brent has always told me he thought trimming was wrong and adding anything to a card was wrong.

QED. He knew what Gary did, trust me. Was he alone? No, not at all, many people did and do the same thing, to some extent for Gary and for many other card doctors. But that doesn't excuse Brent. He knowingly sold altered cards for money. He knew it was wrong. It isn't any more complicated than that.

Why you are sniping at someone doing his best to criticize fraud in the hobby we all presumably love is beyond me at this point, David.

I should add Leon that you really would be best advised not to continue to make pronouncements about what you think the law is. Do you think for example that Robin Hood would have been excused from the crime of stealing because he thought it was the right thing to do?

Not knowing right from wrong is an insanity defense but otherwise it's not the issue for intent.

Because the fraud is being perpetrated by multiple parties and you only choose to focus on one of those parties. And don't tell me to read your other posts about how you blame PSA too. I've read them. Words are one thing, actions are another. You could have included PSA in this poll too if you really thought they share equally in the blame.

Hypothetical question. Let's say YOU had the power to successfully prosecute ONLY ONE of these parties and get a conviction - the other two skate. Who would you choose? Brent? Gary? PSA?

Gary.

What’s PSA’s crime?

ok, then he was insane.

Well, there may be something to that, he does sometimes get insane prices.:cool:

I'm very confused by all this talk. Remember, PWCC has been selling cards from approximately 10 card doctors, passed through PSA, Beckett, and SGC. All of them are at fault.
If PSA doesn't pay out to the victims on their grade guarantees, there will be just as many threads on them. PSA can still claim ignorance in passing the doctored cards as long as they pay out on their policies or have PWCC do it.

I don't know about NY, but in TX it's against the law to take money for a service you didn't provide.

Really? Which Texas criminal statute are you referring to?

I said yes, I'll still consign. If someone creates a consignment service as efficient and effective as PWCC, maybe I'll switch. I haven't bought much from them, but if they still had something that I liked, I'd still probably bid. I tend to shy away from high-dollar cards at PWCC though.

On a related note, why have we only heard from LOTG on this scandal? Surely many of these cards originated from other auction houses. Surely these cards will start to make their way into other auction houses if PWCC actually starts to reject Moser consignments. Should we assume other auction houses will reject six figure consignments from Moser if given the opportunity?

It's right under the statute that affirms that doctoring a card is fraud. Surely you're familiar with it?

It's not just Gary. There are lots of guys doing this work and have been for decades. Sigh. And yes many AHs take their cards. I had an extraordinary conversation with one of them a few years back, it was quite the wake up call to what really goes on.

PSA’s incompetence is not criminal, just as stupidity isn’t criminalized either.

Isn't PSA in essence a contractor? Aren't people paying them to perform a service? If they can't do that service (even if it is incompetence) can't they still be held liable in a civil court?

Maybe not criminal, but they're still obligated to perform the service for which they were paid. If I hire a contractor to remodel my kitchen and he screws it up, do I not have any recourse? Sure I do.

Of course! They’re 100% liable civilly for their lousy work. And lousy is being kind.

And I wish a criminal case could be made against PSA as it would better explain some of their head-scratching incompetence. But that would require evidence that they purposely allowed altered cards to be graded, ie someone getting paid off to do so. There hasn’t even been smoke yet suggesting such evidence exists. But who knows for certain.

Certainly true that social desirability effects can significantly sway poll results, but I can attest that in the case of the example you raised, much of it comes down to ability (not that I ever threatened to leave the country if a certain election didn't turn out as I'd hoped, but right after one particular election, and with no vacation plans, my wife and I did go to the trouble of getting passports for all of our kids, including a toddler, and looking for jobs and houses in New Zealand; it just turned out we didn't get any of the jobs that would have allowed us to buy any of the houses, or we'd be there now). Anyway, anyone should be capable of not consigning to or buying from a particular AH.

Leon you raise a great point. A large percentage of respondents weren't using PWCC prior and so while their opinion matters for this poll it has no bearing on the future impact of PWCC.

I have been wearing Nike Air Max since I was 17. For the last 23 years I have only worn this type of athletic shoe. They have raised the price over time and the last pair I purchased was over $200. Nike in my view has the best styling and performance you can find and for that I am a loyal customer. Last year they did the unthinkable and ran adds with Colin Kaepernick. I despise that guy. How on earth could Nike alienate such a large percentage of their customer base in favor of making a political statement? In mass there was outrage on social media. Their stock dropped on the news. Videos of long time customers burning their products and swearing never to buy from them again. Here we sit a year later and I have never seen the add once, their stock is back to right where it was, you never hear anyone saying they are done with Nike, and my next pair of shoes will still be Air Max.

I shave six to seven days a week. I use the Gillette five blade and Edge shave gel. There have been loads of new products come onto the market. Cheaper blades, fancy shave creams and I still use the same formula that works for me. Gillette releases an add focusing on Toxic Masculinity. WTF??? Their vision is for all men to be beta male soy boys after for years showcasing studs that get chicks. Outrage ensues. Social media is exploding. Their idiotic video is shared countless times and the response was so bad they deleted thousands of comments from it on Youtube. My wife even said Dave I don't want Gillette products in our home. Here I sit as I type this and once more all of this has gone away. I still use the Gillette five blade and will continue to because in my view it is the best razor blade on the market.

This saga will pass in time. Collecting is an individual choice where people put their hard earned money into collectibles and to completely boycott the seller won't last. I am confident plenty of people saying this today will eventually turn and purchase from them once more. The same people consigning to PWCC could simply send the cards to Probstein. Are you going to boycott all consignment sellers? Of course not. Many of us search daily for specific cards or ones that could enhance our collections and I am not going to give up on that just because there is the appearance of wrong doing. It is laughable to think that all PWCC auctioned cards are bad. Reading comments on various boards that all high grade cards are suspect. Give me a break. I have self subbed a ton. Many others have too.

I don't think that's a defense...


Counselor

As I posted it's actually an insanity defense, but other than Leon:eek: I don't think anyone else is going there.

The notion being that if you are insane and don't have the ability to differentiate right from wrong, you can't form the requisite criminal intent. Distillation of a complex topic.

No More PWCC. Life is too short.

I should have said it is a mitigating circumstance.

That is a sentencing issue. You really should quit.

negligence?
 

jeff/peter, do you think psa's actions (or lack thereof) were negligent? do you think a judge/jury would find them negligent (either criminal or civil)?