Question, S74-2
 

I have several different types of S74-2 color silks.....

All the same color, background and player
color background with brown player
white background with brown or black player

Are these variations to found in all player types that a run could be put together?
Are they factory variations ?
Does anybody have any info or thoughts about this....

S74.....
 

My yellow S74-2 Ford is a good example that they were stitched together as the backs of the S74-1 suggests....

Yes, there are some very distinct variations in both the S74-1 (white ad-backed versions) and the S74-2 (colored versions) silks. In regards to your initial question about the backgrounds and player colors, all of the white version S74-1 silks had the same color/material background while the S74-2 colored version silks came in an unknown number of different colors/shades of material.

As for the color of ink used for the images on both the S74-1 and S74-2 silks, there are only three used on both sets. The colors are either brown, blue or a shade of what I refer to as a rust-brown color. Although when you view different colored S74-2 silks it may appear that there are more than those three ink colors for the images, there aren't. It is just one of those quirks that tricks the human eye into thinking there are more than those three ink colors used for the images because of the different background material colors the inks are printed on.

To my knowledge, I believe it is possible to find every player in either the S74-1 or S74-2 set in any of those different three ink colors used for the images. Now if you try to then extend that to the different advertising backed silks in the S74-1 set, or to each and every different material color/variation used in the S74-2 set, that may be a different matter.

Most of the S74-1 ad-backed silks are either for the Old Mill or Turkey Red brand cigarettes, along with the rarer Red Sun and Helmar brands. I don't think there are enough of these rarer backed silks out there to really be able to tell if you could put together a complete set for all players with all three ink colors. No one to my knowledge has ever tried to catalog them in that way and therefore tried to keep track of such numbers. That is not to say they weren't originally printed for each different advertising back with each player available in all three color inks, just that not enough have possibly survived to be able to definitely find them all and prove it.

As for the S74-2 colored silks, there are so many different material shades/colors used it would be virtually impossible in my opinion to tell if every single player in the set was at one time printed in all three ink colors for every different material color/shade ever produced. There are certain silk colors/shades, such as the deep red or lime green versions, that are much harder to find. It is possible that these were used for limited runs and when that color material ran out, they didn't use it anymore. It would take an extremely great and concerted effort among a lot of silk collectors to try to build a database to see if there are certain material colors/shades that do not exist for certain ink colors. Could be fun trying though.

BobC

You can of course put runs together using a combination of the three ink colors for the images, and the different advertising backs for the S74-1 white version silks. At least for the Old Mill and Turkey Red versions. Good luck trying to find Red Sun and Helmar backed silks for any one player, let alone in all three ink colors.

With the S74-2 colored version silks, they were only produced for two advertised cigarette brands, Old Mill and Turkey Red. And as you can see in the images you attached to your post, the colored version silks show the cigarette brand and factory number printed on the front of the silks at the very top and bottom, in the same color ink as the images. You could try doing an S74-2 run for a particular player using say one silk color for for all three different ink colors, and then for both the Old Mill or Turkey Red versions. In that case, I guess you could say there could be six different silks in a player run of S74-2 colored silks for each separate material color/shade. Three different ink colors for Old Mill silks, and three for Turkey Red silks. The trouble is if you then tried to do it for all the different material colors/shades for that same player. Lord knows how many different examples could be found and included in that player run then. Theoretically six times however many different material colors/shades that particular player had silks produced with.

BobC

Thanks Bob for taking the time to respond to my post !!!!!

Bob, thanks for all the interesting info. I collect colored S74s of WaJo, as many different that I can find and afford. I have long believed that colored silks were also issued by Red Sun and Helmar, based on what I read in the Standard Catalog and on the Old Cardboard website, although I have never seen examples of these. I encourage you to contact OC and ask them to revise their S74 info, and perhaps also volunteer to write an article for the OC Magazine.
Val

Hi Val,

Certainly appreciate the consideration but, I don't know if I would be the appropriate one to write such an article. I'm sure there are others who know more about the S74 silks than I do. As far as there being Red Sun and Helmar brand colored S74-2 silks like there are for the white S74-1 silks, I've never seen or heard of any colored silks for either of those brands in all my years of collecting them. If anyone out there has an example they can share a scan of, I would love to see one. My advice is to not hold your breath waiting to see one though as I don't believe they exist.

Now as to why not, well, it is pretty clear that the white ad-backed S74-1 silks were produced initially, and I'm then speculating that the tobacco companies probably switched to the colored silks after getting complaints from wives, mothers and daughters that the all white silks were just bland and dull when being used for making pillows and such, like they were originally intended for. I would also expect the cost for the multi-colored satin materials then used for the S74-2 colored version silks was more than for just the white material used for the S74-1 silks, so they probably came up with the idea pf doing away with the advertising on the paper backing as a way to offset and reduce the cost of producing these multi-colored silks. Besides, when people got the white version silks they were told to remove the advertising on the back before using them in pillows and such, and most people would probably just throw those removed backs away so now the advertising for that tobacco brand was gone. With the S74-2 colored version silks the brand name was printed on the front and didn't just get discarded when the silks were used for their intended purposes. Just my speculations but, from an advertising and cost standpoint, it makes a lot of sense.

Now, the Red Sun and Helmar ad-backed S74-1 silks are both extremely tough to come across examples of, with Helmar being virtually impossible to find. My guess would be that those brands were more regionally distributed than were Old Mill or Turkey Red, and the S74-1 white version silks included with them probably didn't fair well in popularity with consumers they were being sold to in their regional sales areas. Thus, when the switch occurred to go to the multi-colored version of the silks, they likely didn't bother to include the Red Sun and Helmar brands in the new advertising product. You would think that if Red Sun or Helmar colored S74-2 silks were ever produced that at least one of them would have been used in the making of a pillow, or quilt or something else that would have survived till today but, to my knowledge, not one example of either brand exists in the colored version silks. Another possibility is that they did intend to eventually start producing colored version silks for the Red Sun and Helmar brands also but, that the breakup of the American Tobacco Company monopoly occurred and ended that, just like it did for the production of T206 cards and other tobacco advertising of the day.

By the way Val, those are really nice WaJo silks. Good luck on picking them up. With the multitude of silk colors/shades, the three different colors of ink and the different tobacco brands, I couldn't begin to guess how many different versions you could actually find in a run of his silks. it would likely make an impressive display, to say the least. Good luck.

BobC

Good excuse to post an example of the intended use for these silks. Here's a Collins, along with one of the actresses which made up the other portion of the silk sets.