Does Pre-war mean pre-1939?
 

I follow a pretty good site on Facebook called Pre-War Cards.

He sparked a bit of ire in me with a post declaring that post-war cards only consist of cards prior to 1939 (since that's when the war in Europe started)

https://prewarcards.com/2018/04/12/p...etball-hockey/

I disagreed saying pre-war means pre-America's involvement in war starting December 1941.

What say you?

Doesn't he say prior to 1940, not 1939? I agree with him. That's a good compromise dividing line. The war had started by then, even if the US was not directly involved yet.

I have always thought of pre war to be 1945, and back, as that is when the war ended. There is no right answer as it's subjective though technically if something says pre-wwII it would have to be before the war started. For collecting that isn't the way I have thought of it. There are too many sets produced in those 1939-1945 years for me to go there, though admittedly, most are smaller sets and issues. To each their own though.... Other than the technical definition, it is interesting to see collectors tell me factually what it means to collecting.


F Unc 1939. Wheaties & MobilGas St.Paul Team
F-Unc 1939 Pittsburgh Pirates- Duquesne beer premium
F Unc 1940's Piels - Terry, Ballantine- Klinger,Davis & Trommers Coasters
F Unc 1940s Rheingold Beer Premium- Foxx, 8 x 10
F Unc 1940s M & Ms - Joe Dimaggio Sports Club card
F Unc 1940 Crowleys Milk Milosevich and Silvonic- blank and used-postal backs
F Unc 1942 Oertel Brewing Louisville Colonels
F Unc 1943 Oertel Brewing Louisville Colonels
F Unc 1943 Cuban Cristal drink- Martinez
F Unc 1943 Golden Quality Ice Cream Damaltron
F Unc 1944 Oertel Brewing Louisville Colonels
F Unc 1945 Oertel Brewing Louisville Colonels


H-Unc 1939 KMBC,Wheaties,Mobil- Kansas Team premium w/Rizzuto
H-Unc 1939 Father & Son Shoes- Gantenbein, 3x4,(blank back)
H-Unc 1939 Kimball Automotive club Trois-Rivieres -Copple
H-Unc 1939 Kimball Automotive club Trois-Rivieres -Skelton
H-Unc 1939 Cubs Picture Pack (25 w/Dean) & Env.
H-Unc 1939 Phili Team Issue-Gantenbein,Ross(blank back)7x10
H-Unc 1940 Phillies Team Issue 6 x 8, blank back- Marty
H-Unc 1940 Reds Premium - Harry Thobe
H-Unc 1940 Seattle Raniers team premium
H-Unc 1940 Kansas City Blues Team- Radio premium
H-Unc 1940 Bisons Team issue-Giebell,Martin,Stromme,Zubik(all same size)
H-Unc 1940 Cincinnati Reds Team Issue - Dejan, Thompson, Turner <
H-Unc 1940 Cubs Team Set - Lotshaw w/envelope
H-Unc 1940 Bob Bragan homemade card, 3 x 4
H-Unc 1940 Dimaggio, Boosters card and photo premium
H-Unc 1941 Dodgers Picture Pack complete w/Reese
H-Unc 1941 Seattle Rainers (Sicks' Stadium) Lawrence
H-Unc 1941 Montreal Team issue Bell,Head,Graham (blank backs)
H-Unc 1941 Emil Sick's Champions (Sicks' Stadium)Xmas card
H-Unc 1941 & 1942 Tickets - Martin Appreciation & Southworth Dinner
H-Unc 1942 Editorial Bruguera #12 Babe Ruth
H-Unc 1943 Renegar Studios premium- Hicks
H-Unc 1943 Ted Williams & Babe Ruth- First Meeting
H-Unc 1943 St.Louis Browns 8 x 10
H-Unc 1943 St.Louis Cardinals 8 x 10
H-Unc 1943/44 La Campana premium- Salazar & Arteaga
H-Unc 1943 Grand Studio Sproull PSA 7.5
H-Unc 1944 Grand Studio Stengel PSA 3
H-Unc 1945 Cleveland Indian Premium

M-Unc 1941 The Sporting News Pub.Co.- White Sox premium
M-Unc 1941 Cuban Zig Zag Magazine, NY Yankees
M-Unc 1941 Cuban Zig Zag Magazine, NY Yankees (back)
M-Unc 1943 Toledo Mudhen Guide (blank back)- Ralph LinWeber
M-Unc 1943 The Sporting News Yankees Team
M-Unc 1945 Paul Stuarts Parade Sportive Royals team

R334 1939 Playball Gomex, Schact, Williams
R335 1940 Playball Mack,R336 Playball 1941 V.Dimaggio,Reese
R336 1941 Play ball Wartime sheet of 12

ST-Unc 1940 Associated Stations stamp album/stamps-
ST-Unc 1940 Associated Stations stamp- Bob Price
ST-Unc 1943 World Champion NY Yankees w/album and ad form

Really!? For all intensive purposes cards stopped after the US entered WW2, roughly after Pearl Harbor (sorry moe berg fans). That’s when paper rationing started, men’s pro baseball went on haitus, and cards production died off (unfortunately as playball was starting to get it right with their 1941 release).

Baseball and it’s cards were primarily US culture (sans the odd ball Cuban and Ruth tobacco issues) back then, so I follow US history in determining prewar.

Yes, prewar cards are 1941 and earlier. Rationing of items in the US started in December 1941 and increased through 1942 to support the war effort. Production of baseball cards between 1942-1945 would have been seen as a luxury and contrary to the war effort.

Even by his strict definition, World War 2 didn't start until September 1939, so that would have been after most, if not all, 1939 baseball sets were produced. Even in England rationing of paper didn't begin until the summer of 1940.

Right, which is why he said that 1939 cards are pre-war.

There is this "little" area north of the US where cards - mostly hockey - were just as big a part of the culture as baseball cards in the US. :)

Ummm OK
 

Seems to me, as a casual observer, that "pre-war" could mean pretty much anything. Informed people can use particular milestones of which they are aware as the cut-off, and others may disagree. I look at "pre-war" as meaning "not post-war," which is, admittedly, also pretty arbitrary, but allows me to consider 1945 and earlier on one side of the divide, and 1946 and later on the other. I guess I'm not comfortable with the notion that cards issued "during" World War II (is that a new category? "war-era"?) are either pre- or post-war, so I choose to define it in the negative, FWIW....

Are "Prewar" and "Vintage" synonymous?

What we need is an official hobby definition of terms such as pre war, vintage, variation, master set, and rookie card. Whoever is in charge of this hobby should clearly define these terms :)

The OP says that he was told that cards had to be before 1939. That is not right. 1941 Play Ball has always been considered prewar.

The September 1939 date is an arbitrary one, based on England declaring war on Germany. The war had began in Asia with Japan invading Manchuria in 1931, followed by Italy invading Ethiopia in 1935, Japan invading China in 1937 and Germany annexing Austria in 1938. The war didn't become a true world war until Germany invaded Russia June 22, 1941 and Japan attacked Pearl Harbor December 7, 1941. That is why I consider anything 1941 or before prewar.

ante bellum cards
 

The pre-war cut off for British, French, Polish, and German cards is 1939. Russian cards are pre-war up until 41. Spanish cards must have been issued before 1936 to be pre-war. Japanese cards are pre-war only up to 1937. In the USA, pre-war is 1941 and before. Canadian cards, however, have to have been issued before 1939 to be pre-war.

As there is no separate during war category I've always thought post war starts after 1945, when the war ended. Prewar would be anything issued in 1945 or before.

I'm only trying to point out the the OP quoted the article incorrectly. The author stated that he believed in using Pre-1940, not Pre-1939.

In all seriousness, the US wasn't involved in the war until the end of 1941, long after Play Ball had finished issuing its 1941 set, no? The war is the great dividing line becasue that's when Play Ball got out of the baseball card business.

I agree the war is a dividing line, so the debate is when you consider that the war started. It was going on before the US got involved. The author uses 1940 as a compromise date. I just don't see that as very controversial. I believe he also collects non-US cards, so he wouldn't only go by the issue dates of US sets as a determiner.

Just a casual collector here, and I know far less about cards than I do autographs, so if my premise is flawed, please correct me. Anyway, aren't most of the cards/sets we're talking about from American companies? Isn't Baseball an American game? With that in mind, wouldn't it make sense that pre-war means pre American involvement (pre Pearl Harbor)?

the British stopped issuing cigarette cards in 1940. their pre-war cards have a fixed end date. the "pre-war" label will vary from country to country, and so picking 1940 as the cut off date for US cards does not make any sense. Play Ball 1941 is not a wartime card for the US collector.

We're just going to keep going in circles. I believe that 1940 is a good compromise date since different countries entered the war at different times.

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/7gi1eT7HvtM/maxresdefault.jpg

Pearl Harbor is a clear line for US cards. If America wasn't at war at the time, an American card issue is a pre-war card by definition.

A flag waving opinion, as long as that flag is American
 

The vast majority of baseball cards were marketed and distributed in the United States (with a nod to Canada), including all of the major ones produced for the national market, such as Goudey, Play Ball and Double Play. This production virtually stopped with Pearl Harbor and the aforementioned paper rationing.

To try to peg an European dateline to a term that involves such an USA-centric activity such as the mass production of baseball cards doesn't seem practical to me. There is no need to change the informally acknowledged and traditional application of the term PreWW2 from cards produced 1941 and before.

It just makes dang ethnocentric sense!

Brian

Long before the two main allied powers entered the war?He is not including 1940 sets is he? Then he is using no compromise date. He is using the British date, when the Russian date would be almost 2 years later and the American date would be more than 2 years later.

The compromise is between 1939 and 1941. I just don't see how this is so controversial and why people are so upset that one person's opinion is that 1940 is a good dividing line to make things simple.

I've always considered prewar to mean anything before the US entered in the war. I have a few non-sports cards from the War Gum. From Gum Inc. The copyright says 1942. What era would these be considered ?

Joshua

I am rarely a member of the grammar bureau of investigation, but I need to point this one out as I have seen several people muck it up. It is 'all intents and purposes' which means under most usual circumstances.

I thought "True Rookie Card" took precedence ;)

LOL, for me pre-war is pre-April 1917 when the U.S. declared war on Germany.

:)

How about when Great Britain declared war on Japan? I am sorry, I don't see what the compromise is. It is we should go with when Great Britain declared war on Germany and ignore their interactions with Italy and Japan and completely ignore Russia and USA. How is that any compromise? The war didn't fully begin until 1941.

Do you think that maybe you are overthinking this a little? One person's opinion is that pre-war cards are 1940 and earlier. You disagree. I'm out of this debate.

Well, the name of this forum is "WWII & Older", not "prewar". If you say postwar is after 1945, and prewar is before 1939, you're leaving a hole of six years where cards wouldn't be included in either group. I think WWII & Older is a better definition of what is really intended.

I've always considered '48 as the beginning of post war cards, but there's obviously 10 different takes for every 10 guys you ask....

I do too, although technically not sure. What about poor R302-1 (M.P & Co. 1943)? They got nowhere to go:(

casualty of the war. c'est la guerre.

Here's how I classify/define eras for my own purposes:

1900-1941 - Pre-War or Pre-WWII era
1942-1947 - Obscure era
1948-1980 - Vintage era
1981-1986 - Pre-Junk Wax or Rookie Card Craze era
1987-1996 - Junk Wax era
1997-Present - Modern era

I’m with those who have said pre-war is during the war or earlier, and post-war being 1946 or later. To be honest I thought that was pretty well accepted

I think someone else here nailed it. We call things "post war" (essentially anything issued 1946 and later). Everything else is "pre-war" because there is no category called "war". There is certainly a gray area for cards issued between late 1941 and 1945 during the US involvement in the war. But then again, there weren't all that many cards issued during that time ('42 to '45), so I don't really care how you categorize them, but every card needs to fit somewhere, right?

For those going on a limb and stating that you wouldn't consider a card issued in 1940 or 1941 as "pre war", then what might you call them??? Certainly not "post war". Do you call those "vintage"? Each card needs a category. Please explain the cut-off.

I always considered prewar to be 1941 and earlier and anything after I considered postwar. I never thought of postwar as 1948 and later. It was 1942 or later for me. So MP&Co. was always considered postwar.

As a side note, Anson, the creator of prewarcards.com is a board member so maybe he will chime in at some point as well.

Also, not that it's an authority or not, but eBay has the Pre-1942 search option as well. So that agrees with the 1941 and earlier as being prewar.

I/we did too. It made more sense.
.

It’s always been a vague way of saying it to me. Like what war? Vietnam? The gulf war? I would call anything before Vietnam vintage.


I don’t really see why we have pre war and post war.

Leon- I usually agree with everything you say, but this doesn't compute to me:

'I have always thought of pre war to be 1945, and back, as that is when the war ended.'

First of all I can't believe anyone agrees with me :). But regardless of that you might be interpreting what I said incorrectly. I guess it could be called the end of the war category? But as others have mentioned too, I have always felt the category for pre war was when WWII ended. Otherwise, they would be war cards. :) Really, whatever floats your boat is fine by me. As I had mentioned way above also, I don't think there can be a definitive answer except the technical one (others may disagree). Wiki says WWII started in 1941, so if you go with them (and most others), anything before that is pre-wwII. I am not sure how that can be argued in a technical manner. But for this board and I, because it can be somewhat controversial, we went with a different way to address it; WWII & Older
.

That's my article, so I'll chime in.

First, since there's some confusion, as a point of clarification, my definition is pre-1940 cards (i.e. 1939 counts while 1940 doesn't). I realize there are some 1939 issues that technically came after the 'start' of the war but trying to separate those out is virtually impossible.

There's no consensus on it as we see here. My pre-1940 date hinges on the fact that these are called 'pre' war cards. A 1940 card, in my opinion, shouldn't be considered pre-war because war was already occurring. And using dates of when paper rationing started, when cards declined, etc., never really made sense to me. They're called pre-war not pre-paper shortage, etc. I can respect differing opinions on that. I'd just disagree a little there. I mean, if there was no paper shortage at all, does that mean we don't have a pre-war era?

I can understand a 1945 date more than I can 1941, to be honest. I interpret pre-war as before the war began but others may interpret it as when the war ended. Again, I don't agree but I can understand that. But 1941 won't ever make sense to me because pre-war cards encompass more than simply U.S. issues. If we're using a country's (in this case, the U.S.) entry date into WWII as the determining factor that means pre-war dates would differ depending on the country someone is in. To me, the era should be the same no matter where you live and having pre-war eras with different dates around the globe seems like it would be far too confusing.

All of that said, I realize there's no consensus, nor will there ever be. But that's my story and I'm sticking to it :)

There are a few reasons US collectors have WWII as such a dividing line.

Unlike wars we've been involved with since, WWII was pretty much total. Anything that didn't aid the war effort or public morale wasn't looked at as all that good. (yes, there were luxuries, black markets and even dissent, but less openly than you'd think. )
As such, production of lots of consumer products was halted. Cars were basically not built (with a very few exceptions) Any materials were used for production of war goods first, anything else second. Some materials were entirely unavailable publicly. Like chrome. Bicycles were produced, but as stocks of parts were used up, the new parts when available were painted rather than chromed.

Recycling was also huge. A huge portion of what existed for any needed material was gathered up in drives and recycled. Paper and metals especially.

Most stuff that was made before the war began for the US became a lot less common in a brief time.

After WWII, the attitudes were different. So stuff made after the war wasn't recycled to anywhere near the same degree. And the people who were kids during the depression and war were now adults. Adults who had experienced a lot of time without money for stuff, then a stretch with money, but nothing to buy. So saving stuff became a lot more common.

Hey Anson
Nice article. I feel the point you make is salient concerning the start of the war, when taken in the context of the world. I guess it matters that we are discussing pre-war baseball cards and most collectors are really only thinking US.....right or wrong. The 1941 date seems like the correct one to use in that instance.

This is the way I look at various card issued dates :

19th Century
Early 20th Century ( 1900-1945)
Mid 20th Century ( 1946-1980)
Late 20th Century - Modern Era ( 1981-1999)
21st Century ( 2000 - Present)

That's fair, Leon, and thanks for the compliment. The majority of the cards in the context here are certainly American baseball issues. While I'm not a fan of having different pre-war eras for different types of cards, if a separation of sorts was justified, it would probably be for American baseball.

Given that my site includes football, basketball, and hockey, as well as numerous international issues (I catalog any set that has even a single baseball, basketball, football, or hockey card), I sort of have to look at the overall context. That said, I can understand why only collectors of American baseball issues would define the period a little differently.

My thoughts exactly. Pre-war is really "not post-war", so pre-1945.

Really it makes no sense to draw a line between pre and post war since they don’t run consecutively. A more accurate periodization I think would be

Pre 1941 = prewar
1942-1947 = interregnum
After 1948 = postwar

The middle one is disqualified because I can't pronounce. it. :eek:
.