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-   -   Mantle/DiMaggio/Williams Gateway Cachet Opinions (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=212926)

dscards 10-19-2015 01:37 PM

Mantle/DiMaggio/Williams Gateway Cachet Opinions
 
2 Attachment(s)
Looking for opinions on these three autographs before I pull the trigger on a large trade.

Originally came from Jim Stinson.

My only concern is that Gateway sells signed and unsigned versions of each cachet, with the same stamp/postmark. Makes forging these cachets a pretty simple task.

What do you think?

sbfinley 10-19-2015 01:53 PM

I don't give opinions on autographs because they are just that... opinions, but I'll give you a fact: if an item truly came from Jim Stinson I don't doubt it a split second.

7nohitter 10-19-2015 02:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sbfinley (Post 1463207)
I don't give opinions on autographs because they are just that... opinions, but I'll give you a fact: if an item truly came from Jim Stinson I don't doubt it a split second.

I was going to write the exact same thing.

39special 10-19-2015 02:17 PM

If they are from Jim,they are good.

Klrdds 10-19-2015 03:36 PM

Agree 100% with the previous posts!

earlywynnfan 10-19-2015 04:35 PM

Ok, I'll bite. On a recent post, Travis showed how the T should flow into the L, not just go straight up and down. Also, the last name should not be on a straight line. He was applauded for his post.

The Mantle here has a T that goes straight down, and the last name is on a straight line.

Jim Stinson is my #1 favorite, most trustworthy seller in the hobby. So can someone show me what's up?

thetruthisoutthere 10-19-2015 05:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by earlywynnfan (Post 1463243)
Ok, I'll bite. On a recent post, Travis showed how the T should flow into the L, not just go straight up and down. Also, the last name should not be on a straight line. He was applauded for his post.

The Mantle here has a T that goes straight down, and the last name is on a straight line.

Jim Stinson is my #1 favorite, most trustworthy seller in the hobby. So can someone show me what's up?

"Applauded" for his post on a mass-produced Mantle forgery?

travrosty 10-19-2015 10:53 PM

2 Attachment(s)
This one is not on a straight line either, no matter how you slice it.

Happy to show specifics on autographs so people can learn.

Ryan1125 10-20-2015 07:05 AM

All 3 of these are authentic

Fuddjcal 10-21-2015 09:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thetruthisoutthere (Post 1463257)
"Applauded" for his post on a mass-produced Mantle forgery?

no, applauded for answering a specific question that is not PSA or JSA related... actually being a benefit instead of divisive on a blog. For the first time in 5 YEARS LOL.

He is good with those pics...:D and has tons of great info, when he CHOOSES to share and be empathetic, which ain't that often. I welcome the pics and the extra opinions. Especially, when he chooses to try and teach Mantle !~!:p

These 3 are all good IMHO, for whatever it's worth.

kengoldin 10-21-2015 10:08 AM

I believe all three are authentic
Gateway was well. Known for dealing directly with the athlete and when I had athletes such as Ripken, Ryan, Aaron , etc they would contract with us to purchase autographs and we would have their items signed in person.
Although it's possible, I cannot recall seeing a non authentic postmarked gateway . All three autos look period correct to me as well, and I certainly had a lot signed by these guys!

dscards 12-12-2015 06:10 PM

Update: Acquired and framed.
http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m...psbsnzyvmw.jpg

39special 12-12-2015 06:16 PM

Wow,that looks great!

rsn1661 12-12-2015 08:57 PM

Looks Sharp! You have to be proud of it.:)

SikSyko 12-12-2015 09:42 PM

That looks amazing.

shelly 12-13-2015 10:52 AM

All three :):):):):):):):):):)

scmavl 12-15-2015 08:32 AM

Awesome display! Glad you got them, thanks for the trade.

jeffects 03-13-2017 08:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 7nohitter (Post 1463210)
I was going to write the exact same thing.

Well, I was gonna write that since that "Williams" looks like the classic forgery that has been around for years, I doubt the other two's authenticity as well. I would never touch a Williams with the classic big "L L"s.

Great analysis by Larry Rosenbaum:


In the case of Ted Williams autographs, with the exception of the capital “W” in Williams, Ted would consistently make the size of all the letters in his last name nearly the same exact size. Most telling is the “illia”, with the “l”s just ever so slightly taller than the “i”s, and the “a” as tall as the “l”s. Try as they may, most forgers simply can’t undo years of training and habit causing their “l”s to be significantly taller than their “i”s, and their “a” significantly shorter than their “l”s. Williams also connected the “W” in “Williams” to the “ed” in “Ted” with a swirl that gave forgers difficulty in replicating in the same, easy, flowing movement as appears in authentic examples.

jimjim 03-13-2017 08:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jeffects (Post 1640871)
Well, I was gonna write that since that "Williams" looks like the classic forgery that has been around for years, I doubt the other two's authenticity as well. I would never touch a Williams with the classic big "L L"s.

Great analysis by Larry Rosenbaum:


In the case of Ted Williams autographs, with the exception of the capital “W” in Williams, Ted would consistently make the size of all the letters in his last name nearly the same exact size. Most telling is the “illia”, with the “l”s just ever so slightly taller than the “i”s, and the “a” as tall as the “l”s. Try as they may, most forgers simply can’t undo years of training and habit causing their “l”s to be significantly taller than their “i”s, and their “a” significantly shorter than their “l”s. Williams also connected the “W” in “Williams” to the “ed” in “Ted” with a swirl that gave forgers difficulty in replicating in the same, easy, flowing movement as appears in authentic examples.


Do you realize that this thread is over a year old?! Also, the autographs are authentic. Nothing to question. Especially since they were purchased from Jim Stinson.

jeffects 03-13-2017 10:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimjim (Post 1640881)
Do you realize that this thread is over a year old?! Also, the autographs are authentic. Nothing to question. Especially since they were purchased from Jim Stinson.


As a matter of fact, I do know how old this thread is. I read this site when I feel like it, and apparently, that's been a while. These Marino forgeries are a dime a dozen. But believe what you want.

This is exactly the response I expected here. Just like Epperson and Reznikoff are geniuses. Frost and Shelly are honest, blah blah blah.

jeffects 03-13-2017 10:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimjim (Post 1640881)
Do you realize that this thread is over a year old?! Also, the autographs are authentic. Nothing to question. Especially since they were purchased from Jim Stinson.

Stinson may want to read this, and perhaps you as well. But I think we already knew about Marino and "Operation Bullpen". The only thing missing is an "Ali"

Rosenbaum again:


It is unquestionable that Mickey Mantle, Ted Williams, and Joe DiMaggio have been American sports icons since the mid-20th century. It comes as no surprise that these three have been favorites of autograph collectors since the advent of autograph and card shows in the 1980’s. Unfortunately it is equally unsurprising, as attested to in the FBI’s famous 1990s Operation Bullpen, that they are also the three most forged sports autographs. Although most experts believe the forgery problem in sports memorabilia has lessoned tremendously since Operation Bullpen (estimated at that time to be “between $500,000,000 and $900,000,000” by the FBI), sadly large numbers of forged material still exist.

While it would require far more than a single article to educate the autograph collector to detect Mantle, Williams and DiMaggio forgeries, there are some general as well as specific warning keys to these three autographs that may aid in detecting possible forgeries.

As a general rule, one of the first things I examine in an autograph is its feel – how it was written. When an individual signs his name there should be an easy, smooth flow to the signature. We’ve all signed our names countless times, and we don’t need to think about it. An item we offered in one of our past auctions was a sheet of paper signed several times by Joe Jackson. Jackson, who was almost completely illiterate, actually had to practice, in essence work at, writing his name prior to signing documents. Likewise, when a forger writes a signature, he or she is working at it and therefore upon close examination it’s often possible to detect such warning keys as a slowness of motion, stops and starts at inappropriate spots, and possibly even a shakiness in the writing. An invaluable aid to help detect these keys, taught to me by John Reznikoff of University Archives many years ago, is to turn the autograph upside down. When you view an autograph in an unnatural position these warning keys are often easier to detect.

In addition to such general warning keys there are specific warning keys, unique to an individual’s autograph, to keep an eye out for.

In the 1980’s and 1990’s Mickey Mantle stated on numerous occasions that he was blessed to be able to earn more money signing his name at one single weekend show than his father had earned in an entire year working as a coal miner. Because of this Mantle always felt his fans were deserving of a clear, elegant signature. In authentic Mickey Mantle autographs Mickey would always end the “y” in “Mickey” on an upswing, and because he would be quickly flowing through his signature, he therefore started the “M” in “Mantle” on a higher level or plane than he had started the “M” in “Mickey”. Most forgers, because they were “working” on writing Mantle’s signature, would pause after completing “Mickey” and begin anew in writing “Mantle”, therefore placing “Mantle” on more of a straight line with “Mickey”. If one places a ruler or sheet of paper straight across the item Mantle signed (not straight across the signature) all that appears below the ruler or paper of an authentic Mantle is the bottom portion of the “M” in “Mickey”. In the case of most forgeries the ruler or paper completely covers the entire signature. Another difficulty forgers have with Mantle’s signature was his unique way of looping the bottom portion of his “M”. Such curved lines were executed in one easy movement by Mantle, but are most often elongated by forgers who again are “working” the signature. Such slow, elongated forgeries are especially easy to recognize on baseballs as their curved surfaces only add to the forger’s difficulty.

In the case of Ted Williams autographs, with the exception of the capital “W” in Williams, Ted would consistently make the size of all the letters in his last time nearly the same exact size. Most telling is the “illia”, with the “l”s just ever so slightly taller than the “i”s, and the “a” as tall as the “l”s. Try as they may, most forgers simply can’t undo years of training and habit causing their “l”s to be significantly taller than their “i”s, and their “a” significantly shorter than their “l”s. Williams also connected the “W” in “Williams” to the “ed” in “Ted” with a swirl that gave forgers difficulty in replicating in the same, easy, flowing movement as appears in authentic examples. Also of interest, in addition to the many Williams intentional forgeries in existence, Williams revealed late in his life that during his playing days his signature on team signed balls was often a “clubhouse” example, not penned by him.

Regarding Joe DiMaggio’s autograph, problems for forgers begin with the first letter in Joe. Like the “M”s in Mantle’s autograph, the “J” in “Joe”, which appears as two loops, a larger loop on top and a smaller one below, were created by curved lines which are the hardest to duplicate without leaving telltale signs of slowness or inappropriate stops and starts. In addition, DiMaggio would pen his “J”s so that the lower loop would be written on top of (literally written over) the upper loop in two places. For some inexplicable reason, a significant percentage of DiMaggio forgeries flow in the opposite direction, with the upper loop covering the lower one. An inexpensive magnifier or jeweler’s loop will aid in viewing this detail. Finally, the general feel of an authentic DiMaggio autograph is often somewhat sloppy, in the sense that the spacing between letters is uneven, obviously much more so in his second name. Again due to the fact that forgers are working rather than simply signing, the spacing they place between each letter is far more uniform.

Finally, the age-old adage “experience is the best teacher” is indeed appropriate here. The building of as extensive a library of exemplars as possible, of both authentic and fake examples, would be of help to visualize these and additional warning keys, and tremendously assist in the detection of forgeries.

RTK 03-14-2017 10:20 AM

/\

Thanks for the post. I looked at my Mantle, Williams & DiMaggio auto's while reading the text. It look's as if they're authentic. I write this with a sense of relief. I've been wondering for awhile.


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