What is Carlos Beltran's rookie card?
What a mess LOL. He is in 1995 Topps Traded, but it isn't his picture, it's Juan Lebron. He's pictured on Lebron's card. He has a 1995 SP Prospects but it's a minor league card. He next appears in some 1997 Bowman issues. So?
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1995 TOPPS TRADED CARLOS BELTRAN 18T according to the PSA Future HOF set registry. I tend to agree. He's the one labeled on the card, even if the picture isn't him.
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I’m sure Johnny Ray is nodding in agreement somewhere... Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk |
You can always get both the Beltran and the Lebron cards and keep them as a pair. But I agree that the one with his name is his rookie.
As far as the future HOF registry, I don’t think his career numbers are as good as Harold Baines. And we all know what people think of his induction. |
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Beltran JAWS Center Field (9th): 69.6 career WAR / 44.4 7yr-peak WAR / 57.0 JAWS Baines JAWS Right Field (74th): 38.7 career WAR / 21.4 7yr-peak WAR / 30.1 JAWS |
The 1995 traded is considered his primary rookie, even with someone else pictured. It was dirt cheap about three years ago when I got mine. Once it went into pre HOF registry, I imagine it picked up.
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As a shop owner, I have considered it misleading (at best) to label someone as a future HOF. I don’t think there is any place for that in the hobby. Some of the people on the list have very little chance of getting in and haven’t gotten much support. I feel bad for anyone buying a Miguel Tejada, Juan Gonzalez, Todd Helton, Gary Sheffield or even Gil Hodges Rookie with the thought he is going to be in the hall some day because PSA said so.
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How can someone's RC be a card with someone elses pic on it? Just bc Topps made an error and PSA anoited it so with its magic registry wand?
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I'll probably buy a 97 Bowman just to own a Beltran on my latest kick of expanding into the next tier beyond the HOF, but if I had to pick one of the 95s I'd take the one with his actual picture.
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Who else are you buying? I did this a few years ago, ticking all of the guys in the Hall of Stats and guys destined for it. Grabbed Lofton, Edmonds, Abreu, etc. Fun to collect for sure.
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Nice! I don't have a Moyer yet but would like one. Actually it's because of this second and third tier rookie hunt, I bought Harold Baines in PSA 9 for ten bucks....
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More non HOFers (leaving roids out of it) I have -- Maris. Dave Parker. Strawberry. Oliva. Dick Allen. Kaat. Tommy John. May add a Lou Whitaker and Bobby Grich.
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Spend enough time on here and you'll end up hunting for Sal Bando, Ted Simmons, Reggie Smith... ;)
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Rick Reuschel and Kevin Appier never passed this sniff test for me.
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There’s also this former mvps rookie.
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First I am a Beltran fan. His numbers in the post season are among the best ever. And I have always considered the pair of 1985 traded cards his rookie card. Whenever I bought sold or traded any I did it as a pair.
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Regards Rich |
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Full disclosure: My brother built and runs that site. :p |
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On the bright side, I can say I'm only the SECOND biggest baseball geek in my family! :cool: |
Harold Baines fares extremely poorly on Hall of Stats.
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Beltran: 2725 hits, 435 hr, 1582 r, 1587 rbi, 279/350/485 119 ops+ Where does that leave Beltran? |
wrong hof player on rookie card
This was also the case with soccer Hall of Famer John Harkes (Sheffield Wednesday, DC United),
His picture is on the card, but it has Hall of Fame Tab Ramos (Sporting Gijon, MetroStars) name. They come from the same town and it's both their rookie card! If it had a slab flip, I'd insist they include both names. |
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Rankings by Hall Rating 108th All Time (Top 0.6%) 8th among Center Fielders Baines 57 points Rankings by Hall Rating 751st All Time (Top 3.9%) 221st among Hall of Famers 6th among Designated Hitters |
Baines has 38.7 career WAR in a career that spanned 22 seasons.
Beltran had 69.6 career WAR in a career that spanned 20 seasons. Their raw offensive #'s are close-ish as someone noted, but: - Beltran was a 3x GG winning CF. Baines was a DH/mediocre OF. - Beltran stole 300+ bases with less than 50 CS. Baines stole 34 career bases with a 50% success rate. - 50 more HR is nothing to sneeze at, either. Baines is the worst HOF selection in recent memory. Beltran isn't a slam-dunk, no doubt HOFer, but I think he's deserving. |
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Baines had 1 top 10 finish in the MVP voting. Beltran had 2. So neither one was dominating their leagues in the era they played. I don’t think you can make an argument for or against one and not the other. You can show me WAR and black ink to “prove” that one was superior to the other but they were very similar players - offensively. Baines has become the poster boy for bad HOF inductees. My argument is only that he’s a pretty good pick, that he had a very nice career and is getting a bad rap. Put him in and Beltran too. |
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20yrs bWAR - 67.1 2446 Hits 385 HR .272/.370/.470 127 OPS+ 2 Top 5 MVP finishes ALso finished 7, 9 and 11 in MVP voting in other years 9 GG (interestingly, BR gives his a career negative defensive WAR - this surprised me. Just looking at his D WAR, he was a mediocre to terrible defender after he turned 30) |
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After a few years, people stopped running on him, something that doesn't show in any stats I know of. So that might have something to do with a defensive dropoff. Not many chances for outfield assists if nobody tries to take an extra base. |
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And 300 steals is nothing to sniff at, either. I look at it this way, if you're building a tower for each player based on their HOF qualifications, you give them both a similar sized "hitting" block. The difference is that then Baines is done. All he did was hit. If you give Beltran a block for defense and a block for baserunning, his tower is substantially taller than Baines, even if the two additional blocks aren't as big. In terms of WAR, I'd guess Baines and Beltran's offensive WAR (minus baserunning) is probably similar enough. Baines would have somewhat negative baserunning and defense. Meanwhile, Beltran would have positive baserunning and defense. Now, whether either tower reaches HOF levels or not is another debate....but it's hard to argue that Beltran's isn't the better case. |
I really don't see it even being close between them. Beltran's 2006 season was better than any two of Baines'. And I mean that literally. Beltran put up an 8.2 WAR that year. The highest Baines ever put out was 4.3.
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