Extremely worrisome possible trend.
 

Saw this listing on Ebay yesterday -

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Lot-of-9-BGS...cAAOSwnipWY7a5

What is the possible benefit of purchasing cracked flips unless you plan on reusing them? I do not like the path this is headed.

WOW! That should be illegal. You are right, what else could you do with these except use them for making fake flips? So I guess whoever buys them is probably a crook. And why would someone crack open cards that were graded a 10? VERY STRANGE

Those aren't 10's. Those are BCCG 10'S - which are Mint or better. A 9 really.

It was nice of him to include his address in the listing so that we can send him hate mail :D

The "why" to me is the grader. BCCG grading is not exactly considered worthy. So, perhaps cracking out a 10 in order to get a PSA/SGC/Beckett 10 is the idea. But, I agree with both of you. The only reason to buy the flips would be to do something less than reputable. Should it be illegal? Well, no. It is your stuff and I can't see any reason you can't sell it. But, I can't think of anyone that would use this stuff for anything beyond reselling other cards inside with these cert numbers.

I wonder if this is something that goes on: A crook submits a legitimate card and gets a grade. He cracks it and resubmits and gets another legitimate grade. He repeats this several times, thereby getting 6-7 cert numbers for one card. Then, he takes lesser (or fake) cards and uses the legit cert numbers. They come back legit, because the numbers are legit. Just not the cards. Nobody is the wiser.

Yeah seen this a few days ago but look at the cards on them it Dosent matter

There probably aren't many Beckett Slab fabricators out there. I have never seen one cracked that could be reused with or without the frosting.

I if they were real PSA flips that 10s or 9s than I would pay attention....not those flips..

remember if cards were resubmitted for the big payoff grade..that means the flips that weren't used are for a grade where it was worth it to try to get a higher grade.

Jake, are you drinking at this time of a day?:D

Or is it me.:eek:


Also, they just sold for $25 plus 3 shipping.

just you!.


well i just dont think we will be seeing any babe ruth/mantles/t206 cards anytime soon in these flips...'nothing to see here'

Jimmy,

I'll just quote myself from back in January regarding Jake:

if you get hurt and missed work it wont hurt to miss work...


could be worse things than being compared to a HOF world series champion...

The flip for a '63 Pete Rose could very well wind up being part of fraudulent activity in the future. Picture attached here for future reference by board members.

Very disturbing and it must be illegal. Doesn't matter whether it's BCCG, SGC, PSA, you know the intention of the buyer will be to sell a card using one of the labels.

I wonder whether if any of these grading companies would try to stop this if they knew it was happening.

not illegal to sell the labels..no law against it...someone may be making art of them them....maybe a bunch of cut up flips to make a psa 10 mantle flip....maybe people like looking at the flips more than the cards..

after all Sell the holder not the card..

That specific one was the most worrisome...one of the most faked cards in the hobby.

You can't seriously be condoning this. Sure it may not be illegal, but your statements sound more of an encouragement than an indictment.

while the "idea" of people selling flips concerns me a bit...these particular flips...exept maybe the rose don't worry me much.

I'm much more concerned about people making their own flips than this.

This should be reported to eBay because it appears it may be against their COA policy.

"Blank COAs and LOAs" and "COAs and LOAs as stand-alone items" are specifically not allowed. In my view, these items fall into that category.

http://pages.ebay.com/am/en-us/help/...utographs.html

Definitely a concern of someone doing something they shouldn't with these, but I believe there are many collectors that would just love to own them for their own personal collection, or like mentioned above as some sort of decoration. It's not illegal and I think we should keep an eye on it because we know what some of the dangers could be from this ordeal.

Believe it or not, flips have value to some without being attached to the card. Not everyone can afford to buy a Pete rose rookie, so to them owning a flip could be the next best thing. And who knows, maybe someone actually collects flips...it happens. Also it's an easy way for someone that cracked their slabs to make easy $$

I think honestly what this shows is something I had not thought of before.

Making a fake flip is completely unnecessary. All the holograms and UPC codes mean nothing if you can just crack a card for the flip toss it in a fake slab and resubmit for another.

I now think the slab is the "end all" for security bar none.

Think about it, if the bad guys can just crack a slab; no matter what you have to legitimize it...even RFID chips. It's jack.

Beckett slabs are really moving up my list lately as what I tend to trust most.

I feel a lot of people are not realizing the bigger picture. I could care less the cards these flips are for. Other than the Rose, these are cards that are so off my radar it is insane.

It's the idea that people are selling flips now and the grading companies need to take note.

How much could a real scammer make re subbing a 52 mantle hi-grade 7 times and moving those flips?

doesn't matter if condoning or not or reasoning...if its not illegal like you say people can do what they want......I never care about their reasoning...a lot of sellers say they are selling their collection to pay medical bills or taxes but holds off for years to get an over market value....or people buy cards from people saying they are keeping their cards in their personal collection to get a lower price or make the sale but then consign them a month later...

I don't care why a person is selling a card or flip or why they want to buy it ..can't police the world and people make up things all the time in the card world..

it does appear against ebay policy though...but not illegal

I have seen several conversations/debates on this subject in the past. It's hard to pinpoint all of the issues but there are many.

Laughing out loud.

What exactly would be illegal about it?

I have hundreds of labels from all the stuff I have cracked over the years, I never thought about the fact that I could sell them, I just kept them because I'm a packrat.

Maybe the guy selling them is just trying to f... with all you guys who swear by the "people who get paid for their opinions", I know I'm considering it.

Hahahahaha,

Doug "there are worse ways to have fun" Goodman

Lol
 

Maybe the guy was just trying to get a laugh out of Doug

I always consider double reverse psychology as a motive!! (I seriously consider it.....maybe not always, but often)

No way selling them (themselves) would be illegal unless you committed fraud somehow while doing it.

Definitely not illegal, but completely classless. Contributing to the death of a hobby to make 25 bucks is just sad.

Most of us will all be here and collecting years from now, but one of the nice thing about the grading services is they offer a bit of security to the uninformed. We tend to get so uppity on this site about "educating yourself", "buyer beware", and "paying for opinions". Most of us could be considered well above the normal collector in the things we focus on. I still find it weird I end up teaching dealers at shows and shops about items they are clueless about or fakes on display. This is their job, not mine and I chose to learn more.

What is the reason to join this hobby if there is no safety net while learning? When you lose out on every one of your purchases during those building years because all you bought were mostly fake or altered cards, are you losing faith the day you find this out?

We need reliable grading services to offer assurance to those that are not experts. We need that new flow of collectors and investors. Think about it...many cards are passing by collectors and going to the investor market. Do you think that most buyers of 52 Mantles at the moment are true knowledgable collectors or like the Wagner has become, investors with huge disposable income buying a display piece? What happens to the value of those Mantles when that market of investors drops out due to lack of trust or faith?

Of course TPGs are opinion, of course they are human and thus make human error, of course the system is not perfect. However, the element of something fixable, like a resealable slab, removable flips, etc can be fixed. They need to focus on this crap now.

Some easy fixes -
Better slabs - beckett is killing at this now. The others need change asap.
Photo databases - should have started years ago.
Flips affixed to the slab. - flips should be adhesively stuck to the slab with the "void" wording that appears when peeled. Much like the labels on gas pumps to avoid tampering.

When I can go right on ebay and buy flips like this and then run another quick search and get empty slabs -

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1-EMPTY-GRAD...oAAOSw5IJWf5UV

...the TPGs need to step it up.

The existence of "the people who get paid for their opinions" has contributed more to the "death of the hobby" than all the flip sellers in the world combined.

Oh wait, maybe I misunderstood what you meant, do "the people who get paid for their opinions" charge $25?


I won't even comment on the words "reliable grading services" being used in conjunction with the words "to offer assurance".


When it comes to getting paid opinions on my stuff, I always think the best option would be Dmitri Young, he seems to have an eye for great cards.

Doug "Al is probably right" Goodman

Obviously a difference in opinion and not poking for a fight, but if you think that some reassurance is worse that zero, I don't see how that adds up.

The entire paragraph about how the system is not perfect seems to be overlooked, and to assume that newbies and monied investors are going to keep posting record sales prices on blind faith seems hopeful at best.

As for Dmitri, if your reference was as to him pioneering the multiple submit to get what he wants, whatever. Again, like I said, human error is unremovable, crappy materials are totally fixable.

I don't know jack about which is the best toaster, vacuum, or electric car, but people for years have asked consumer reports for opinions. Are they perfect? Hell no, but at least it's a slight tilt in the consumers favor who knows jack squat about something.

Dimitri
 

One thing I know for sure about Doug....he is not a serial submitter....or advocate of same.

Totally not accusing of such, I just assumed that was the point of the Dmitri reference as he easily arguably was.

Dimitri
 

Only kidding Justin. In case you had not noticed Doug has certain viewpoints about grading and graders. You are definitely more mainstream :)

Al, Al, Al. Usually, you read me like a book, but this time you're off the mark.

I think EVERYBODY should get ALL of their stuff graded, because even though the people who get paid for their opinions occasionally make mistakes, they are only human, and eventually they tend to get it right, especially if Dmitri Young is the submitter (or re-submitter). I have heard that Mr. Young is starting a new business submitting cards for collectors. He will make a fortune, and collectors will win with the higher grades that they would receive.

A Good Book
 

Yep, that's Doug :)

Insert smiley face here

I don't mean to sound argumentative, but what possible arguments could be made in favor of allowing the sale of cracked out flips? That someone collects flips or just wanted a flip from a high end card? I don't buy it. I think the likelihood of them being used to commit fraud in the future should be enough to prohibit their resale on a major site like ebay.

That being said, I doubt these flips present much of a risk. That this could be a trend, or that these sales are allowed at all does bother me.

I think Doug has read me wrong as much as I have him. I also very much appreciate the civil discussions on this, it is wonderful that we can all have differing opinions and not be silly about it.

In all honesty, I have NEVER submitted a card to a grading service. Talked about doing it, but never got around to it. Not to say that I certainly might in the future someday, but I too feel that the values for subjective grades are way overblown. Also, I would rather get more cards than pay for grading with my money.

Here's where we differ though. If I am at a show or buying a card I can handle in person, I trust my skills and will buy raw in a second. Admittedly most of my collection is raw cards. However, when buying via the net or auction I admit I prefer a graded card. I can normally easily spot a fake, but the trimming is too prevalent and I have just gotten pissed off at card doctors. The annoyance of returning a card or finding out later due to laziness is draining. I like the partial safety net, whether or not it is 100%.

I also know that if I want top dollar for my cards at resale if I choose to liquidate, I will need to grade them or face a heavy fiscal punishment...that's life. I buy raw cards to save money because they sell lower. The fraudsters and card trimmers have made the hobby what it is today...paranoid.

If you want to take a stance or statement on grading it's fine with me, just realize the importance it has come to play in the hobby and how much damage to our collections it could do if that system collapses and those collectors that hope for that security, no matter how tenuous, drop out of the buying pool.

If someone wants to measure the current importance of grading in investment cards, I ask them to break out a high grade card (52 mick, 1916 ruth) and sell it raw as a statement to put their money where their mouth is. I will wager it will have a hard time selling at half its graded counterparts.

I can certainly hate the way the current is going, but it's a bitch to paddle against it.

When graders get it wrong we all get up in arms, but hell, the only two things I know are always 100% are death and taxes. I'll take the better odds on anything any day, especially if all I am looking at is a possibly photoshopped scan from 1200 miles away.

You should.

I'm a player collector of Chris Coghlan and given that I have almost all of his easy-to-obtain stuff I have to go for the obscure...which isn't that plentiful given that he's somewhat of an obscure player to begin with. If a loose flip of his popped up on ebay I'd buy it in a second if the price were reasonable. Why? I can't even tell you. I just know that if there's something of his that I don't have, I want it, even if it isn't catalogued.

Just like people buy expired and USED redemptions (I'm guilty here too), people will buy these. My guess is the buyer intends to break the lot up. Of all the Rose collectors in the world, there has to be someone interested in a flip. Likewise for the other guys. Check out "expired redemption" on ebay and notice all the sales. This is the same thing, except that there are theoretically hundreds of expired redemptions out there...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Kris-Bryant-...8AAOSwbdpWYIej <---that's for a USED redemption! The market for ANYTHING unique is there. I wouldn't automatically jump to malice on the part of the buyers and sellers involved with these.

I didn't really think collectors would collect old flips just to collect them. Naive me....

Maybe one way to prevent people from reusing labels is to have an expiration date on each card that is graded. If you own a graded card whether you submitted it or not, you would just use some app to scan in the whole slab to register it again. The app would check it against its database to make sure the card matches the original one that was graded. If it does, them the it would extend the expiration date.

It's a far fetched idea but one never knows.

Even so, I think the risk for fraud outweighs the benefit to the few out there who would collect flips. The point someone else made about certificates or letters of authenticity sales not being allowed for the same reasons makes sense to me. I believe these flips should fall into that same category.

Nope.

With no disrespect intended to you Justin, I didn't read you wrong because I haven't read the entirety of any of your posts. The reason that I often remove the name of the person I quote when I respond is because I do not mean my statements to be aimed directly at that person, I mean them to be aimed at anyone who agrees with the quote I'm responding to.

My thoughts on "third party graders" as many like to call them, but who I prefer to call "the people who get paid for their opinions" was pretty much summed up in my second post to this thread, which I will repeat here :

That's a pretty straight forward statement who's meaning can't be misunderstood.

That's a joke, referencing the previous statement.

Another joke, again referencing the first statement.

Another joke. I LOVE mentioning Dmitri in any conversation about paid opinions, because if you know your paid opinion history, then you know that Mr. Young was pretty good at getting higher quality opinions on his cards than the previous owners of the same cards. Of course, those of you who collect opinions, and consider the cards themselves to be secondary, probably missed the humor.

The great thing about my jokes is that they all make me laugh, and because I believe that a joke that makes anybody laugh is by definition a funny joke, that means all of my jokes are funny. To me. I don't really give a shit about what anybody else thinks.

Except for Al. I like it when I think Al is getting a grin on his face as he watches me do my Public Enemy impersonation.

Al didn't get that one, he's going to have to google that one (sorry Al). They're a rap act, who are also members of the Rock & Roll HOF

Good night,
Doug "paid opinions are the worst thing to happen to the hobby since Upper Deck introduced chase cards" Goodman


PS - The irony of me posting such a long post after admitting to not reading Justin's long posts is not lost on me, but will be lost on many of you because you didn't read far enough to make it to this sentence.

At least that's a card issued by Topps, I understand why there would be a market for that.

I don't understand collecting flips, but to each his own.

I think dismissing this because it's "only" BCCG is dangerous thinking. I doubt many members of this forum buy BCCG-graded cards, as we have a higher level of hobby sophistication. But what about the parents of kids who have expressed an interest in collecting for the first time? They might go online to EBay, searching for a birthday or Christmas present, and decide upon a BCCG 10 card of their kid's favorite player. Neither they, or their kid, will have any clue that they have been duped.

Are we looking to protect only ourselves, or everybody that might want to venture into baseball card collecting? This kind of abhorrent behavior has no place in our hobby. Period.