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Does intent matter when it comes to the alteration of a baseball card? And can you determine intent simply because the attempt was not completely successful. This card raises some interesting questions:

http://loveofthegameauctions.com/190...-LOT19205.aspx

Especially considering their pledge to pull any card that has been determined to be altered. Perhaps they meant only if a before scan is available.

It also looks like their rule does not apply to memorabilia.

This is a current listing that's been cleaned up:

http://loveofthegameauctions.com/Exc...-LOT19069.aspx

This is what it looked like before:

https://bid.robertedwardauctions.com...e?itemid=56621

What exactly would you have Al do the day before the auction ends? He states he contacted all bidders when he found out and has in large Red writing in the description that they found some new info. It really makes things tough when it is the day before the auction ends.

Some still may not see the updates and I'm sure Al will check with the winner and cancel if they don't want the card after the auction to make sure they aren't upset.

Much different than what Brent tried to do by hiding the T3 Cobb update in the fine print of the auction in my opinion. Also, find several thousand more examples and maybe you could be on to something... but you are probably right Al is probably just as immoral as Brent, that is what you are trying to imply, right?

This is the disclaimer in the text of the auction, which you have to scroll down to the bottom of the listing to read. Not sure if it was there when you posted 20 minutes ago.

I would expect them to do what they said they would do. This is copied and pasted from their earlier statement:

It has long been our belief that any process designed to disguise or remove wear or degradation that has happened to a card should be called what it is: an alteration. We understand that some alterations are considered acceptable by many hobbyists, and that some alterations are virtually undetectable. However, we still consider them alterations.

Should any hobbyist discover compelling evidence that a card in our auction has been altered, we will withdraw the card immediately.

While we can never eliminate 100% of undisclosed alterations, and would never pledge to be able to catch them all or be mistake-free, we can establish procedures that help us identify and remove such items from our auction.


Both of these listings seem to contradict their own statement, although the second listing is not a card.

I am actually curious to see what the reaction will be around here now that it's LOTG and not PWCC.

The thing is, with that tin sign, I suppose you could do the same thing by just putting it outside during a hard rainstorm, letting the rain clean it off.

Steve

I am sure it is going to be very different as Al hasn't been shown to be involved in selling "hundreds" of altered cards and possible shill bids over the past few years and doesn't have the absolutely horrible reputation that Brent now enjoys.

Also, again, it is the day of the auction ending! I personally think the card should be ended but that is my opinion and I am sure Al would let the high bidder out if they didn't see the addendum that is not hidden (red lettering w/ yellow background).

Also, the sign is a very different situation as cleaning a large sign is pretty much normal in that hobby. Why wouldn't you clean with simple water something like that?

The tin sign is a different situation than a card. Apples to oranges. Graded trading cards are a unique genre, where they are professionally graded and entombed, and minuscule differences in condition (idiotically) greatly affect value. The whole area of graded grading cards has separated itself from other collectibles (and sometimes common sense). The whole recent scandal these days with trading cards is alterations undetected by graders and not being reflected in the label's grade. Tin signs aren't professionally graded and entombed, and obviously, this one hasn't been, so there's no 'cognitive dischord' between the sign and the grade on the label (as there is no label) . . . It's no minor detail that LOTG's text is specified for trading cards,and the tin sign would better be compared to a raw card.

The cleaning of the tin sign has been disclosed and that answers that . . . As a side issue, I don't believe removing grime and dirt from a tine sign is detrimental. In fact, some would say the opposite. Though I don't know what exactly was done. Though, as I just said, disclosure is important.

I don't know how the alteration of the card was included (or not) in the grade-- perhaps it was . . . I don't know, and admit I'm not up to date with the details of grading, but do know that erasure marks and pencil marks are often part of the grade. So no opinion at the moment on that card . . . . . . Though the quoted rule should have noted that it's about alterations that are not reflected in the grade.

Hi Jesse:

Allow me to address your concerns.

1) I spoke with the Reach sign consignor on Thursday night and was advised the sign had been cleaned with distilled water. Given the sign is a non-porous, tin sign, I do not consider that to be any more an alteration than, say, cleaning ashes out of the ashtray in Lot 98 (which was probably also done at some point). Despite this, on Friday I reached out to every bidder on the lot by phone, explained the situation, and gave each the opportunity to cancel their bids. None took me up on the offer. After I had spoken with each bidder, I added the notation to the description so that any potential new bidder could also see it. With an hour to go in extended bidding, there have been, thus far, no new bidders.

2) The E95 Cobb issue was pointed out to me overnight last night. This morning I inspected the card, and decided that the appropriate course of action in this case was to send out an errata email to all the bidders on the card, advise them of the situation, and give each of them the opportunity to cancel their bids. One did. I also wrote an addendum to the description to alert additional potential bidders.

Your attempt to draw ANY correlation between my behavior and fraudulent, illegal activity on the part of other companies is exactly what it sounds like.

Warm regards,
-Al

So why do you think it's debatable that an attempt to remove a stain was done deceptively? And why is that even relevant to whether or not you adhere to your own policy?

I haven't accused any one of fraudulent activity, and don't believe there is necessarily anything wrong with some of the outed cards that have simply been cleaned up a little.

But it does seem disingenuous in my opinion to put out a statement saying if you discover a card in your auction has been altered you will pull it immediately, only to leave one that has been up in your next auction.

I'm sad all those signed cards have JSA stickers on the back. They're ruined its archaic. Maybe they can be removed by soaking

I think trying to compare LOTG fully disclosing these issues to all bidders immediately (basically) and offering all of them an opportunity to pull their bids to what PWCC has been doing for years is laughable. It's not even in the same hemisphere let alone ballpark. So waiting for some major scandalous reaction is pointless here.

Great comment, David
 

Thank you for clarifying the situation with actual knowledge.

Tim

Ps. Am I am the only one getting really weary of all the self appointed moral arbiters hovering around every hobby event?

Tim

Agreed, many of those signed 55 Bowman umpires are VERY tough and the sticker is a major downer!

There was more than "cotton balls & water" used to clean that sign! :confused:

That could easily be all it was.

I've cleaned up lots of old metal stuff, and if it's just accumulated dirt from the air it comes off easy.
Heck, I have a whole garagefull of stuff that probably needs a bit of that right now.

I fully aagree
 

No clear before and after (on the card). Full disclosure. Option to withdraw - What a better market place it would be if all auction houses were so responsive!!

Personally, I think LOTG does a good job. If they see something in an item they'll take the right action to make corrections. Here's a good example:

A card in this latest auction was found to have a pin hole that wasn't noticed before. The card is graded. What did LOTG do? They gave everyone who bid on the card the opportunity to pull their bid. The item description was updated to let everyone about the pin hole. Not sure what else more they could do.

I'm going to give the benefit of the doubt that LOTG does the right thing.

+10000
 

LOTG is the epitome of an honest broker in this hobby. Why do people want to drag them down into the muck of pwcc, psa, etc?

Jesse does it every auction, it's his favorite hobby along with consigning altered cards to PWCC.

Well put,Jeff
 

I guess everyone has their own way of enjoying the hobby 🤮

I am not waiting for any reaction and this is about what I expected. I figured there would be a few more posts about how they're the greatest, most honest auction house in the hobby.

I think it's unlikely that they didn't know the the tin had been cleaned up well before it was disclosed, and that they didn't notice the card had the alteration before they were tipped off.

If the consensus around here is that this type of alteration or conservation is acceptable I have a feeling the hobby will soon evolve to accept others that have only removed things from a card that were not there originally.

I personally don't think erasing a stain and damaging a card in the process is somehow better than using distilled water or a chemical to remove one and leaving no trace behind. I'm not sure it's any worse either.

How is a tin sign a card? The whole equivalence is false.

Yes you were absolutely looking for a reaction, otherwise why even point it out? Also, people will come to their defense because they are good people that try to do the right thing and stand for something... you know unlike you.

Again, a tin sign is not a card, which is what we have all been talking about. Also, thanks for letting us know what Al & Jeff did or didn't know & what they did or didn't notice, that is very helpful as you are obviously in a position to know what is going in their heads.

You seem to think that you have made some sort of point and are drawing some conclusion from that but you haven't... in fact everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul. :)

The OP needs to find a more appropriate place to direct his anger. LOTG handled everything in textbook fashion, and with full disclosure. Each bidder was contacted personally... even though the water cleaning was a non-issue to begin with.

The Sign is in no way comparable to a Card that resides in a falsely numbered slab. Memorabilia is different from cards, always has been, and there is zero comparison here.

I've cleaned off pieces that arrive dirty or grimey, and so has everyone else. It's normal and accepted (if not expected) with these types of items. Trimming, bleaching, recoloring, and anything else done to alter an item's original properties... a whole different animal.

On a side note.....a $10k profit on cleaning a sign up with cotton balls and water was a nice score!!

pretty crazy
 

I collect old cards old signs and my wife is old like me. I've really NEVER HEARD such a ridiculous argument about cleaning a sign. If you RESTORE the sign that's one thing. Please keep your discussions to cards where I assume you likely know something about them.

David's and Rhett's replies hit the mark squarely. A sign is a sign. It is not a card. To compare Al's auction with the atrocities committed by other auction houses with respect to cardboard cards is a leap of faith that in a fact-driven world is laughable.

Sorry, Jesse, you should direct your energy toward the folks who are committing card crimes, not for honest people like Al. Let's save the moral outrage for real hobby offenders.

Mike

Nothing wrong done here.

Have you ever attended a car auction? Every car is shiny on the outside and immaculate on the inside. Obviously, they have been washed, waxed and vacuumed. Should that be disclosed to the buyer? I don't think so and that's how I feel about signs.

This thread is nonsense.

Al is one of the good guys in the hobby.

Looks like a few of you misread my comment. I'm well aware a tin advertising sign is not a card. It should be just as obvious that an E95 Cobb is a card.

I think it is commendable that Al used distilled water and not cheap beer

No, dude, you misread everything. The Cobb was discovered last day and LOTG informed all the bidders and let them decide what to do. The core of the doctoring activity is fraud, specifically nondisclosure of known alterations to the buyers. Telling someone the card history when it becomes known and letting them decide with full disclosure is what we expect. There is no fraud with disclosure.

Agree 100% w/ Mike

+1 in a big way. In fact, admin might consider removing this thread as unnecessarily mean-spirited, but I'm also for letting stuff stay there for us to haggle over until we get tired of it and move on. Full disclosure, big Al C. fan here.

My issue with this card is not the alteration or disclosure posted the last day of the auction. It has more to do with the perception that LOTG can do no wrong, yet they don't even follow their own standards.

The following are quotes from their own website:

"Any graded card valued over $500 will be reviewed carefully by LOTG under magnification, along with halogen and long-wave ultraviolet lighting. Should we discover any issues with which we are uncomfortable, the card will be resubmitted to the grading company for review or returned to the consignor at their request."

"Should any hobbyist discover compelling evidence that a card in our auction has been altered, we will withdraw the card immediately."

Clearly neither of these happened. The E95 was not carefully reviewed, nor was it pulled when the alteration was discovered. Again these are not my standards. These are pledges made by a company claiming to be above all of this.

The following is a quote from the disclosure added to the Cobb:

"While our policy is to withdraw items that are discovered to be altered, in this case we believe the alteration is visible enough that it is debatable whether or not it was done deceptively. "

In my opinion, this reads like they are justifying violating their own policy my making up some new standard that judges the intent of whoever altered this card. If I misread that, please let me know how it's supposed to read.

If none of you have a problem with any of this so be it.

Is it your thinking that someone purchased this sign from REA and then cleaned and consigned the exact same sign to LOTG for an auction ending one week later? That does not show any logic on your part IMO. The only way that this could happen is REA never had the sign in their possession and was consigned to more than one auction. Are you implying that REA is selling something that they do not have in their office? It would also seem that you must believe that REA did not plan on shipping this sign out since they did not have it.

REA sold the sign in the spring not a week ago.

I am reluctant to post this because it feels in the spirit of no good deed goes unpunished. In normal circumstances I would have found Al's disclosure and notification commendable. That said, in my opinion, he should instead have taken the auction down. He made a bold and unequivocal statement that he would remove any card identified as altered from his auction, yet a card was identified as altered and he didn't remove it. I understand why he didn't, and of course it's easy to pass judgment from a distance, and I continue to hold him in high regard. But I think he should have followed his own policy and not tried to finesse it. Just my opinion.

Skip it.

Ha. I too have drafted and deleted numerous posts, each time deciding it’s just not worth getting into. Bottom line for me, Al is one of the good guys and LOTG is a top-notch outfit.

Ryan Hotchkiss

The consistency of the complainfest in this hobby is staggering. I love cards. I love talking cards. I love buying cards but threads like this sour the hobby in my opinion.
I should have known better than to open it in the first place. There are a ton of people on this message board and many have really strong opinions. There was no win in this situation. Because no matter what is done some will disagree. That’s life. This is cardboard and tin.
This guy, for one, is sick of all the complaining FOR THE SAKE OF COMPLAINING.
I just want the hobby. And intelligent discussions about it.
Next time I will know better than to open a thread that I know obviously where it is going.
Eric Recker. Just in case that is needed.

Edited to add- Al is one of the best in the hobby. I am thankful for him and his integrity. That is specifically for the op. Al is good stuff. Sorry if you disagree but the evidence is not on your side.

One person’s complaining is another person identifying an issue they care about.

exactimundo!!!!!aaahhhhyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy yyyyy

I hate cards. I hate the hobby. I'm in to the hilt and the MAJORITY are scam artists. The intelligent discussions are on BO, where they show you exactly how it is being done . It is a huge syndicate and EVERYONE IS INVOLVED, IMHO. The have ruined the hobby. PERIOD

This is what hobbyists should be discussing , not their stupid collections...that they LOOOOOOOVVVVVVVVEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

Damn it Al, read the posts... It wasn't LOTG Al that cleaned it with distilled water, it was the consignor. Give LOTG Al more credit than that, I'm sure it wouldn't have been just any cheap beer if it were LOTG Al that cleaned it. I'm guessing a nice single malt Scotch would have been used.... sheesh Al.... :)

I still like my stupid collection

+1

Chuck, I understand and share your frustration but if you hate cards and the hobby why keep on posting on a card hobby forum? Why not take a siesta unless you think these posts will affect some meaningful change to make it a hobby you like again?

Yes, I do think they will lead to meaningful changes if enough people would STOP doing what isn't working...That is my hope. Much like "I hope" the Dodgers are going to win another WS in my lifetime. Probably aint gonna happen.

Tough to win a WS when you can count on Clayton to get shelled at least twice. :eek::D:cool:

We discussed this before, Chuck. If you hate the hobby and will always hate it then go do something that makes you happy. Life is too short and your shit to equity ratio on our forum is becoming lopsided. We Pmd about this before and you said you would tone it down some? We all know there is fraud in the hobby and it is being talked about investigated, which is good.
But we also like to talk about fun things too. I would rather see positive talk about cards and collections but I am only one vote. That doesn't mean the other fraudulent stuff is being kept secret or squashed. No threads have been deleted and only a few moved, out of quite a few, concerning the fraud.

Here is a Forbes tri fold I picked up last night in LOTG....It went below my max bid too!