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Posted By: <b>kirk</b><p>Hey all, I'm brand new here, and fairly new to collecting (in adulthood anyway). I started again this past spring when my 5 yr old son showed an interest & I busted out my old cards from childhood (I'm 36). <br /><br />Anyway, nowadays grading is so prevelent and in my opinion neccesary with all I see about card doctors & counterfeits.... My question is, am I to believe that this card (<a href="http://www.network54.com/Index/86178" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.network54.com/Index/86178</a>) was graded by PSA as an original. If thats the case, I'm not sure if I trust ANYTHING from PSA. Ive been on the fence anyway since witnessing some inconsistencies with OC qualifiers, but I still thought in the back of my head, maybe I should join if only because they are considered industry standard... But SGC seems to have more stock with serious collectors from what I see in the "greade the graders" thread....<br /><br />Also worth noting is that at this point, I've been collecting mostly 50s & 60s cards of yankees and key players like mays, aaron, etc... But I'm interested in dabbling into tobacco cards. There is something about them that feels historic. Like a real piece of American history. I don't even own one yet because I don't know whos who, there were no yankees back then (NY americans right?) and I certainly can't afford cards of the players I HAVE heard of like cy young, ty cobb, etc.... Also, UNgraded ones have very likely been doctored at one time or another over the past 100yrs.... Is that a correct statement, or an exaggeration<br /><br />Anyway, I look fwd to coming here often if I haven't already been banned for long winded-ness. Great forum!<br /><br />-Kirk

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>Welcome to our board. Always good to have fresh blood in the hobby. Your 5 yr old could be our youngest member if you an get him to sit on your lap while reading the board. (kids are the best).....Anyway, yes, PSA graded the fake M101 Ruth and it was from one of our board members. To their credit they did pony up and make the board member whole on the card, value-wise. I am a little biased but SGC is really head and shoulders above them, especially in the vintage market. I believe SGC will continue to get better too.....(actually, I am quite sure of it)....take care and good luck in the hunt...and don't forget to check out our Buy/Sell/Trade section for a pretty good place to find stuff...regards<br /><br />edited to add.....ungraded cards don't necessarily mean they have been doctored at all. As a matter of fact I am quite sure most have not been doctored...and am also sure some have. The higher the condition the more suspect you should be about ungraded cards for sale.....Not too many pr-fr cards will be doctored....but a nrmt-mt...or mint card.....be very, very skeptical if it's not in a holder and for sale by someone that has a clue about vintage cards. There is a reason it's not in a holder....as a holdered card, in high grade, will almost always bring more than an unholdered one. Anyone smart knows that more high grade cards have been doctored than low grade ones....Anyone not so smart will disagree.......

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Posted By: <b>fkw</b><p>That M101-5 Ruth was from a few years back and I consider it one of the 2 worst embarrassments Ive ever seen about PSA. Thats and the T206 Heinie Wagner labeled a Honus Wagner.

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Posted By: <b>Joe D.</b><p>in all walks of life mistakes happen.<br /><br />The key is --- how does a company handle its mistakes?<br /><br /><br />Leon mentions that PSA made good on the card (so PSA took the hit, not the collector).<br /><br />That example should give you more confidence, not less confidence, in PSA.<br />At least it does for me.<br /><br /><br />I fully believe that you could also trust SGC to make-right any mistake that might happen.<br /><br />For vintage baseball cards.... I prefer SGC over any grader - but I do trust both SGC and PSA.<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>Joe,<br />It gives me confidence that when PSA makes a huge outlandish mistake, on a very high dollar card that is fake, and they grade it, that they will make good on it. I know far too much to be confident with high grade PSA cards.....way, way too much....Everyone needs to be happy in what they do. I am very happy collecting mostly gd-ex cards and having all of my high value ones graded by SGC. PSA does get it right most of the times....I will give them that....and no, this is not "PSA bashing" I am only giving my honest opinion. My opinion and a quarter will not buy anything anymore &gt;<img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> ....take care

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Posted By: <b>Joe D.</b><p>well... I am guessing that PSA would make good on any mistake that you can point to (big or small).<br /><br /><br />but I don't know for sure. <br />nor do I lose much sleep over it.<br /><br /><br />I am with you on the VG-EX.... and with preferring SGC.....<br />heck - my favorite card(s) have the 'Authentic' grade.<br /><br /><br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>I will agree that PSA will make good on mistakes when pointed out. I have heard other stories but I do think they are reputable in that sense. My biggest concern is on them catching alterations on high end vintage cards....regards

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Posted By: <b>David Davis</b><p>Not only should it be added to their most embarrassing moments, but who here thinks PSA would make good on the PSA8 Wagner if (and of course it will never happen, unless Mark Ecko buys it) it was cracked and proved to be trimmed?

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Posted By: <b>Joe D.</b><p>I think they would make good on that card without blinking an eye.<br /><br /><br />The money is a drop in the bucket to that company....<br />and that card has such provenance that it will always be worth $$$$<br /><br /><br />The publicity of making good on that $$$$ card is worth it just in the free advertising.<br />

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Posted By: <b>kirk</b><p>Didn't mean to open a can of worms. Of course I do commend them on having enough professionalism to make good on their mistake.... may concern is that they would make that mistake in the 1st place. I know, we're all human, but their name is Professional Sports Authenticator. I doubt you could get a fake dollar past the teller at your bank. Is she paid to examine the dollars under scrutiny and assign a grade that will ultimately determine it's worth in the market? No, She's just counting them and looking at them as they pass quickly through her hands. I don't know. I'm far from an expert in this area... I guess that's why it's all that more important for me to rely on someone who is.... So someday when my great grandchildren are hocking my cards for their crack habit, they won't be surprised that half of them are fake. <img src="/images/sad.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>JimB</b><p>All of the grading companies make mistakes. They are professionals. Some are better than others. But they are human. The questions are: Who makes the fewest? and What can be done to reduce that number? My guess is that both PSA and SGC make mistakes on forgeries/alterations at a rate of far, far less than 1/1000. That is just a guess of course. The one time I bought a card that I thought was altered and it was missed by PSA, I made a couple of calls, sent the card back in for re-evaluation, and was issued a full refund within days. That was a very slight problem on the back of the card that I think 99 people out of 100 would never notice. Just my .02<br />JimB

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Posted By: <b>Mark</b><p>According to a Beckett article, PSA has been grading counterfeit Emmitt Smith prookies.<br /><br /><a href="http://last-son-of-krypton.50megs.com/Fake_1988_Florida_Burger_King_Emmitt_Smith.html" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://last-son-of-krypton.50megs.com/Fake_1988_Florida_Burger_King_Emmitt_Smith.html</a><br /><br /><a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/PSA-10-88-Florida-Burger-King-EMMITT-SMITH-RC-2_W0QQitemZ140183691022QQihZ004QQcategoryZ56000QQs sPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://cgi.ebay.com/PSA-10-88-Florida-Burger-King-EMMITT-SMITH-RC-2_W0QQitemZ140183691022QQihZ004QQcategoryZ56000QQs sPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem</a>

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Posted By: <b>Steve</b><p>Welcome to the boards!<br /><br />Didn't SGC grade an altered card too that was very hi profile? (Doyle) ?<br /><br />According to Olbermann his chauffer knew it was a fake. I think it was the one that Mr. Mint sold to Keith.<br /><br /><br />In any event PSA makes mistakes as does SGC.<br /><br /><br />GAI? are they back in business yet?<br /><br /><br />Oh and b4 I get roasted ......the above is just opinion.<br /><br /><br />Steve

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Posted By: <b>G. Maines</b><p>I believe that both major graders make mistakes far more often than generally is recognized. It is my opinion that rejections without due cause are far from uncommon. That is, they err on the side of caution with impunity.

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Posted By: <b>Kenneth A. Cohen</b><p>Kirk,<br /><br />"there were no yankees back then (NY americans right?)" <br /><br />You can collect Yankees in the old tobacco cards, though the team wasn't called "Yankees" until the 1913 season, a couple of years T206s ceased to be issued. Previous to that, the franchise was known as the NY "Highlanders." The designation "Americans" refers to their membership in the American League. The most prominent Yankee in the T206 set is Hal Chase. His importance during the era is reflected by the fact that he is the only player to be pictured on 5 different T206 cards - more than even the immortal Cobb who is pictured on four. Chase's inclusion in the Hall of Fame was precluded by his involvement in the more unsavory aspects of baseball. One of the his cards might be a good place to start. Hope this helps.<br /><br />Ken

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Posted By: <b>T206Collector</b><p>T205 cards, including Chase, reflect Yankees as the name of the team on the front of the card. <br /><br /><img src="http://www.t207.com/images/t205/chase.jpg"><br />

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Posted By: <b>Jim VB</b><p>Kirk, <br /><br />You said, "Also, UNgraded ones have very likely been doctored at one time or another over the past 100yrs.... Is that a correct statement, or an exaggeration"<br /><br />If you saw most of my collection of ungraded vintage cards, there would be no doubt that that they have never been doctored. Most of mine have been more than gently "used". So, I have to go with "exaggeration".<br /><br />Most low grade, T206 commons can be had for $15-20. There is limited cost benefit to "fixing" them However, I do believe that the bigger the name of the player, and the better the condition of the card, the greater the chance that someone has worked on it. <br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Marty Ogelvie</b><p><P>Kirk,</P><P>If your looking for T206 (Yankees - Highlanders). Hal Chase has quite a few poses... </P><br><br>martyOgelvie<br />nyyankeecards.com