What's an autograph, anyway?
I'm feeling philosophical.
Anyone care to define the term "autograph"? |
From the OED:
autograph (auto|graph) Pronunciation: /ˈɔːtəgrɑːf/ noun * 1a signature, especially that of a celebrity written as a memento for an admirer: fans surged around the car asking for autographs * 2a manuscript or musical score in an author’s or musician’s own handwriting: the earliest version of the work is possibly an autograph * [mass noun] a person’s handwriting: a songbook in Purcell’s autograph verb [with object] * write one’s signature on (something); sign: the whole team autographed a shirt for him (as adjective autographed) an autographed photo adjective * written in the author’s own handwriting: an autograph manuscript * (of a painting or sculpture) done by the artist, not by a copier: five of the drawings are accepted as autograph Derivatives autographic Pronunciation: /-ˈgrafɪk/ adjective Origin:early 17th century: from French autographe or late Latin autographum, from Greek autographon, neuter of autographos 'written with one's own hand', from autos 'self' + graphos 'written' |
An autograph refers to a person's artistic signature.
A famous autograph refers to a signature that's probably been forged again and again by CC. ;) |
Good start. OK, so how important is this,
"especially that of a celebrity written as a memento for an admirer" as opposed to the less-purpose-specific verb definition given "write one’s signature on (something)"? |
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Everyone has their own flare about their signature so I'd say they are all naturally artistic.
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To illustrate my question, is this an autograph?
http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/f...0NFT/Roush.jpg The question of artistry is a subjective one, though this does at least resemble his autograph given to admirers. On the other hand, it does not seem to fit the primary OED definition given above (although "especially" is a handy qualifier)... |
It's what Toyota uses to chart sales.
The Rousch name is half cursive, so at at least it's close. I agree there is definitional gray area because of the way it was used, but if I had to pick what it is a) or b) I'd call it Rousch's signature/autograph. In part because it resembles his normal autograph on a baseball or photo. At the least, I wouldn't have a problem if a seller called in an autograph. Though he wrote the entire address in cursive, and perhaps everything else he wrote, so I could understand someone say it's not his real autograph. I think it's getting a little technical here. |
Yes! The definitional gray areas are what I want to discuss.
More to come. Anyone, please post any "gray" examples of autos that you have seen! |
I found this one that I remember being very controversial. Most accepted that the Washington here was written by our first president, but can you call it an autograph? A signature? If not, what do you call it, and what is it worth compared to a beautiful, unquestionable autograph?
http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/f...1mar16_3l1.jpg |
If Rousch had printed out the letters in his name, instead of using cursive, I would not have called it his autograph. So the Rousch is an interesting example due to his cursive addiction. Visually it's his autograph, but technically it is not.
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An "autograph" is anything written in the person's own hand. It does not have to be (or contain) a signature. Hence the autographic designations:
A.L. Autograph Letter (letter in the person's hand, no signature) A.L.S. Autograph Letter Signed (letter in the person's hand, with signature) A.D. Autograph Document (document in the person's hand, no signature) A.D.S. Autograph Document Signed (document in the person's hand, with signature) A.M. Autograph Manuscript (manuscript in the person's hand, no signature) A.M.S. Autograph Manuscript Signed (Manuscript in the person's hand, with signature) That return address cut is at least an A.D., and some would call it an A.D.S. That Washington cut is a piece of an A.D. |
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Interesting. Where did you find this? What about initials? I don't know the legal difference as to why I have to initial certin parts of a document and then sign my full name at the end, but are intitials an autograph? |
How about these MacPhails? The first is obviously a letter, and the second is an inscription in a book.
Autographs, or no? http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/f.../MacoPhail.jpg http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/f...T/MacPhail.jpg |
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D.S. Document Signed (document in hand of another, or printed, but signed by person in question.) L.S. Letter Signed (letter in hand of another, signed by person in question.) T.L.S. Typed Letter Signed I.S.P. Inscribed Photo Signed etc. |
Or the ever-popular Roach's Corner version: "P.O.S."
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I'm sure many of you saw this Addie Joss postcard in the last oldjudge auction. Here is an example (if authentic) of a player writing his last name in reference to his son. In any way an autograph?
http://www.oldjudge.com/auction/auto...ost-cards/235/ |
I don't mean to sound too harsh, but have you been listening? "Autograph" is not synonymous with "signature."
Yes, the postcard is an autograph of Joss. |
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I do have to ask, by your standard, anything written in someone's hand is their autograph? They don't even have to write their name? |
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The Joss item in my view is not an autograph. Writing someone else's name -- even if part of it coincides with your own -- is not an autograph IMO. I would gladly take the joss item to own his writing, but I don't think I could fool myself into thinking it was his autograph. |
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I wish I had the photo, but there was an auction a few years ago that had a note from Tris Speaker to his wife. He didn't sign it, but he did write "Mrs. Tris Speaker" on the verso so that a messenger knew the intended receiver. The script looked like any Speaker auto I've ever seen (he had beautiful penmanship), but that little "Mrs." in front of it made me contemplate whether this was an autograph or not. He was not technically writing his own name, but if someone were to make a simple cut, there would be no way to know that. |
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During WWII, a particular A.M. (Autograph Manuscript--no signature) sold for more than $1 million. It was a copy of the Gettysburg Address, in Lincoln's hand. Would you want a copy of Lou Gehrig's farewell speech, in his own hand, in your autograph collection? Or would you feel it didn't belong there because it wasn't signed? |
I agree with what David has posted concerning what an autograph is. He's right on the mark.
Mike |
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Let's go the other direction. Phil Niekro signatures sell every day on ebay. I've never seen an A.D. of his sell. Is that because they are rare, or because nobody wants them? |
Here are two autograph items from my collection. The first is a check filled out and "signed" by Wilbur Wright. (A rare autograph, as he died in 1912.) He has signed the check "Wright Cycle Co," with his initials "WW" underneath. The second is a check of Orville's, which he signed "Wright Brothers," and also initialed. I don't know about you, but I find these "signatures" much more interesting, and historically valuable, than the simple--and far, far more common--"Wilbur" and "Orville."
http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j2...ight_check.jpg http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j2...ht_check_2.jpg |
I love those Wrights, and I would call both of them autographs, or signatures in the dealer parlance. In a very real sense, they are signatures of the brothers as a set, especially the second one (as that is how they are collectively known).
So what do you (the board, not just David) make of this one that I found recently? http://www.milehighcardco.com/LotDet...-Authenticated |
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What do you think of this Neil Armstrong autograph? :D
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Check out this Ed Delahanty in the Legendary auction. What an item! Is it an autograph (or signature)? After all, he is clearly writing his wife's name...
http://www.legendaryauctions.com/Lot...-Hall-of-Famer |
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