T206 Resource, I would appreciate an opinion on this one
 

T206resource, the now experts of T206's

Please respond to this thread

Is this card trimmed or not in your opinions?

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=151903

Dan, do you really think
 

they are going to make an opinion and post it in the thread?

A) They risk their name and goodwill

and

B) They'd be making the determination based upon a scan alone.

Yes, the scan seems to be quite telling. But the reality is that both SGC and PSA have a definitive advantage in that they can closely handle and observe the card before holdering it. Making a trimming judgment based upon a scan alone is too simplified for anything but the most blatant of hack jobs.

Marc

Really? I think this one is obvious, and yes, I would like to hear an opinion even if it is against the obvious.

Even with just a scan, this card is blatantly hacked

And I challenge anyone to argue it here, anyone no matter the politics!

They have no problem making opinions based on scans of cards that are not being auctioned by Goodwin so yes, I expect them to make an opinion of this card based on a scan.

Actually, they told me their opinion of the Plank but wouldn't post it

The problam with this BS is politics

and it is pure BS, these cards are HACKED! and if I (ME) submitted them 100 times, they would be HACKED 100 times.

Does anyone else see any fraud here?????

or is it just me? maybe I am way off here?

This is complete BS and I am getting real sick of this BS 3rd party Grading!

I get 4's on 6's and 7's and someone gets 8's on HACKED shit!

This is a joke!

don't hold back...

I am sorry Leon, I will try to express myself fully next time, I just wasn't real sure about this subject and was on the fence.

I won't post again unless I am real sure of myself

dan

LOL....You are so cute when you get red in the face :). Just take it easy my friend. Remember your blood pressure...... Can't wait for MD

How in the world can you truly tell if i card has been trimmed by looking at scans? I have alot of t206s with diamond cuts, are they all trimmed?

Post your cards Kevin, I can easily tell if they are hacked or not

Diamond cut cards have opposite cuts on top and bottom

If you feel this PSA 8 is not hacked, that is ok, that is your opinion.

I have been collectiong T206 for 43 years, how long have you been collecting them?

Baltimore will be fun! I can't wait!

Blood pressure is fine, I see how it is

a complete joke, hopefully the true collectors will survive

20 years....

kool! let's see some of your diamond cuts. They are probably ok

When the website was first being created we made a decision to stay out of the TPG debates. It has nothing to do with politics or what auction a card may be in. We focus on the history of the set and it's production. We'll leave the grading, and second guessing of it, to others.

Dan - Though I might not have posted on Net54 about the Plank I gave my opinion of the card to many people in the hobby. Not that I think it matters anymore than anyone else's.

T206
 

Hi Dan, First of all, how did the LaJoie get a PSA8 when it clearly has ink on the back. Shouldn't it have a qualifier?

http://www.goodwinandco.com/LotDetai...100&category=1

Second, I know I am in the minority, but given the paper stock that was used on the T206's I find it hard to believe that ANY T206's came off of the presses with the perfect cuts that are found on the 2 Goodwin cards. If by chance they did get perfect cuts, the chances of those perfect corners and perfect edges surviving intact for over 100 years seems impossible.

Compared to many others on the board my experience with T206's is limited, but I look at ALL PSA8's and above with deep suspicion.

Rick

Rick

oh ok thanks Tim, so you have no opinion on the SCP auctions that are selling PSA graded cards with front/back combinations that can't exist?

I think you are smart to stay out of that stuff, good show!

dan

That's different. One can tell with certainty from a scan that a front/back combo is impossible. Detecting trimming or rolled out creases isn't as clear cut.

oh gotchya, big difference

So based on the scan of the Goodwin PSA 8 card, you can't tell it is trimmed?

Is that your professional opinion?

Maybe there's a middle road, guys. Maybe it was pristine and grand when they graded it, then something happened to that edge before the physical slabbing was completed. You betcha!!!

I'm not a professional grader by any stretch and never claimed to be good at detecting trimmed cards.

If I said the card was trimmed what would happen?

And the fact that it's a T206 shouldn't put Jim and I at the top of "must post" list. There are many people that are extremely knowledgeable about all issues and can detect trimming. Most of them didn't respond in your thread either.

So you and Jim are not the experts? I am sure Scott Forest and Wonka will be posting, just thought I would ask for your opinion as well.

So you have no opinion?

Obviously nothing will change when you state your opinion but why should that matter or keep you from stating your opinion?

I am asking you for your opinion, is that so hard?

Is this card trimmed or not based on the scan and in your opinion whether professional or not?

I gave my opinion and will respect your opinion if it agrees or not with mine.

thanks and I appreciate your opinion

Dan

No Dan, Jim and I don't claim to be experts.

No, I honestly don't have an opinion about the card in question. I didn't submit it, consign it, nor am I planning on bidding on it, so it's of no importance to me what is printed on the slab.

No where on the website do we discuss how to detect trimmed cards or profess to be good at doing it. So again, other than this being a T206 I'm not sure why you would want my opinion. I don't think if it was a T205, '33 Goudey, or 1960 Topps you would care what I think.

There are many people better at detecting trimmed cards than me and you would be better served with your own opinion or theirs rather than mine.

Dan. First off I appreciate your energy you bring to the issues we all know exist in third party grading. It's a mess no doubt and some pretty unethical practices definitely take place. Have you ever thought though that your approach you take on these matters keeps others from participating or even responding. Everyone of your post's on this subject comes off pretty damn close to a threat and leaves most of us not wanting to even get involved. Just my two cents, but you would more than likely get much more participation from some pretty experienced collectors here if you just pulled back the reigns a little bit. You seem like a good guy and are well respected by many. Your friends that know you put up with you because they know what your really about. For the ones of us though who only know you through a keyboard you come across very abrasive and one sided when it comes to discussions that could and should be discussed much more civil. Again just my two cents. Take it as you may.

The card does not have a normal cut. "Trim" has an intentional connotation, and I doubt that anyone intended that jagged outcome. So it has an irregular, non factory cut to that top border. I don't understand nor care for grading, but what little I do know about it has me not understanding how the card got graded.

I'd think some folks don't care. Some care but don't ever post. A few have opinions but don't want to post so as not to offend anyone. I have great respect for Mr. Goodwin, and don't really want anything here to reflect negatively on him. He didn't do the grading, though. I wasn't displeased with A-Rod or Pujols for taking those big contracts, they should have signed... it's the idiot owners that offered the contracts that has changed the game. Some folks don't want to post negative opinions about a slabbed card because they themselves send cards to that grader, get involved with the set registry stuff, and all that jazz. I don't do any of that stuff, so that doesn't worry me. I don't want to intenionally stir them up, but how the hell did that card get anything other than authentic?

Dan is a bit aggressive, on occasion. I'm thankful someone is. He's a better service and watchdog for the hobby than any, nay all of the third party graders are.

Dan or Tim,

I thought I was pretty familiar with all of the content on T206Resource.com. I apparently am not.

Could you please post links to the pages where the site's owners claim to be experts and/or professionals at detecting trimmed cards? If there are no such pages, then links to just the pages where trimmed T206s are discussed. If there are no such pages, then links to just the pages where the pros and cons of third-party grading are discussed.

Thanks in advance.

Save your breath....T206Resource's Red HINDU checklist has that phony red HINDU / red Cobb listed as confirmed.

Many of us dinosaurs know that this card was professionally altered by taking an authentic red HINDU back and RE-FRONTING
it with a red Cobb image.

In my opinion....this red Cobb listing in their "infallible" checklists blows any integrity they had.

Dan
ole buddy....it's not an absolute game they play, it's as you said back in Post #3....it's POLITICS !


TED Z

Irony, sweet irony.

rob--how long have you been in the hobby, again? thought so...

32 years. And next week or month, I promise the number won't be 34. Or 36. Or 38.

Want to know how many T206s I've seen in that time? I'll be happy to pull a big, big number out of thin air if that will help establish credibility.

Wow. I must have missed something.

Dan, I've met you and know you are no fan of 3rd party grading, but this comes off as an attack at a couple of guys who have done some work to try to help figure out the monster. I've never met the guys from T206 resource, but have read some of their posts and haven't construed that they hold themselves out to be the end-all be-all on all things trimmed.

I can see a discussion of front vs. back combinations being relevant, but am not sure I understand why their opinion on trimming / altering is more relevant than anybody else here and I certainly don't see them classifying themselves as professionals in the grading industry.

Dan, I like you and will continue to do so, but I've got to ask, why the issue with these guys? Like I said, I guess I missed something.

FWIW, I do agree that if somebody starts a website on the premise of being a "resource", there is bound to be some feedback - both positive and negative. I'm no tobacco card collector and have no idea who is right about printing orders and sheets, but I've always enjoyed when supported hypotheses are shared and discussed. To me, that is what this hobby and this board should be about. Yeah, we gripe about this and that - many times with just cause. I guess I just don't see the "just cause" in this case. If it were a card that were being sold by them, I could see a potential beef, but calling someone out and labelling them as "experts" on card altering and asking their opinion based on only a scan seems a little far fetched... but again... maybe I'm missing something.

Personally, I'd think someone like Kevin Saucier would be more likely to be called out in this way - specifically because he has held himself out to be a guy who can detect and maybe duplicate alterations / trimming, but even then, I'd expect that someone like that would need to see a card in person in order to render a definitive opinion.

So, I guess that is a long winded way of saying, why the "professional opinion" angle on a scan of what may be a graded, allegedly trimmed card?

The enemy of my enemy is my friend

you should see in person
 

you should see in person to say 100% not trimmed. However you don't always need to see it in person though to be 100% sure it is trimmed. I have found Dan to be correct every time he makes one of these posts. In my opinion of course.

So many issues here ...

First, I think it is possible to give an opinion based on a scan because every such opinion has an implicit qualifier/asterisk that says "I am only looking at the scan. I don't have the card in hand. If I did, my opinion may be different." To the extent that everyone understands that the opinion is about the card as scanned and not as held in hand, then it is ok to me to give opinions (can you tell I'm about to give an opinion? :)). We do it all the time in auctions and ebay and everywhere that we see a scan. Even if it's not something we post, we make the mental calculation as we try to decide to buy or not to buy.


In my opinion, this card AS IT APPEARS IN THE SCAN, looks like a classic example of trimming. It is not a diamond cut by any definition of diamond cut that I know of. The top border is clearly not parallel to the bottom border and has a slant that is dumbfounding in it's starkness. If we were assembling a tutorial on spotting altered cards, this one would be Exhibit A in the examples for spotting trimming. Edges that are slanted or not parallel are the Numero Uno sign of trimming, and this one has it in spades.

In fact, this one is so bad that it occurs to me that maybe it could not possibly have escaped the grader - he (or she) MUST have noticed it. Maybe then they looked for other signs of trimming like how the edges break, bats ears, different discoloration to the edges, etc, and didn't find any. If they didn't find physical evidence of trimming, they may have (reluctantly) concluded it was not trimmed despite the really bad slanted top. This gets us full circle in saying that maybe someone with the card in hand can see evidence that does not appear in the scan.

But even if that were the case, I wish someone (TPG, Goodwin, someone) would at least acknowledge what can plainly be seen instead of pretending it must be perfect because it has an 8.

As an aside, I agree with the others that T206 resource should not be called upon to ring in on this any more than anyone else. They have put themselves out as experts in the T206 set in particular, not in general alteration techniques that apply across all card types. I think they are perfectly correct to decline to comment.

But I don't mind giving an opinion on the scan only - that thing looks really, really trimmed!

J

I don't perceive that T206 Resource has put themselves out as experts. Seems to me they're compiling some of the information available about the white border cards, and they're putting a bunch of that information on one site on the internet. The site is more of a conduit and compilation, rather than a panel of self anointed experts. Still... they could offer an opinion about the cutting (I still don't think trimming is the right word, unless the culprit stopped in mid trim) of the top border of the card. They won't, they think they're being baited. Maybe not opining was the goal of the 'baitor'.

I feel honored that you have mentioned my name in the same sentence as someone whose opinion I respect. At the moment, all cardboard still looks alike to me, but when that changes I'll start jumping into the frays again.

I think this card has to be analyzed with a very zealous eye. Usually the trim jobs to be concerned of are on the cards with four right angles. A fraudster is not doing his job well if this one is trimmed. He has left himself plenty of space to hack again more carefully, to be more deceptive and make more money. Why didn't he use it?

In any event, the best way to check for trimming in T206 cards is to look at all four sides of the card -- something you cannot do with a front/back scan. You really have to examine the edge cut, cardboard striations, beveling, etc. Or didn't everyone read that article in SGC Collector Magazine a few years back?

Do I think there is a lot to be concerned about here? Yes.

Do I think PSA have monkey graders? You betcha!

Would I make a claim one way or another about this one based on scan alone? No chance.

To declare a trim here so matter-of-factly would ignore the lack of required evidence to prove a trim.

I am very new to collecting prewar cards compared to most here and am loving getting educated about them. I did not know that when they cut the 206 cards that they had the ability to cut them with perfectly square corners. I love learning these things.

Ahhhh lighting fires tonight huh Danny, you confrontational SOB. :)

Ok here we go…the card in question…simply put looks goofy to me too.

Anytime a card looks that goofy I assume the same trimmed. Seen my fair share of odd cut T206’s but this one doesn’t fit the mold of those for me. With that said if I went back in a time machine tonight and pulled that card from a pack of smokes I would be a bit bummed as the ski jump top would drive me nuts.

Now onto something I can’t let slide…Ted really? You busting balls about flubbed lists on T206 conformations is like Ike Turner giving marriage advice. Guy you have been caught in so many tall tales half the time I’m not sure if I’m on Net54 or pulling up a chair for some county fair pie in lake Wobegon with Garrison Keillor.

As for the Cobb Red Hindu I too think the card was from the good ol’ rebacker. However I have a feeling why the guys may have left it on their list is it’s a possible combo…but I don’t know as I can’t speak for them.

As for my tenure in the hobby I’ve been in for a few months now. I'm doing well due to the online classes I’ve been taking and the mail order pamphlets and books on tape…that Leon puts out. I hope to graduate next month with decent grades.

Cheers,

John

First, I have posted this in both threads about this subject. Also, lets keep this a friendy debate. I'm not an expert but just sharing what I do know.
http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=152007 T206 Resource, I would appreciate an opinion on this one
http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=151903 I wonder if the dude with the paper cutter lost his finger on this one?


I can understand everyones feeling about a diamond cut needing to match the top and bottom and i'm not going to say wether the card was trimmed or not but I will tell you what I do know. First let me say that I personally don't buy diamond cuts with one strait edge and one angled edge because they always look possibly trimmed when in the holder and just don't look good to me. I also have seen more SGC holders (mostly older ones) with numerically graded cards with one straight edge and one angle edge than PSA over the years. Over 20 years ago, I worked at a print shop and all the equipment was early 1900's. I worked the cutter alot and depending on how much paper was under the clamp, as the blade sliced down, you could get a fanning of the paper. Now by experiece on how the cutter works, I can tell you that the T206's were first cut in vertical strips because you never see a diamond cut on the sides. This is because the paper clamp has the full length of the sheet pile to hold onto. After that, the strips were put into the clamp, one strip pile at a time. The pile would be no more than 2 inches high because its hand opperated and the more you cut at once, the harder it is. This is where the fanning or diamond cut happens. The clamp only has the width of the card to hold onto. During the first cut, you would put the strip pile flat against the fence and clamp down. As the wedged blade cuts down, the pile can twist under the clamp and the cards closest to the bottom would have the greatest degee of angle. Now remember that the pile started with a straight edge and now a few cards from the bottom of the pile have a diamond cut edge on the top border of the card. This scenario would create the card in question. Now for matching top and bottom diamond cuts. Once an angled cut happens and you put that angled cut against the cutting fence, you continue to get the same angle within the rest of that strip of cards.

Below is a copy of an older post I wrote. http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=143487 How T206's were cut?

I believe the cards were cut with the machine pictured in the link. I've used one of these cutters at an old print shop. There is an adjustable fence on the back side of the cutter and clamp. I believe the card sheets were cut first into vertical strips. After cutting off the border scrap, the fence would be adjusted 1 7/16 inches from the blade and then a stack of sheets maybe measuring 1 to 2 inches thick with a scrap piece of thick cardboard on the bottom and top of the pile would be slid into the front of the cutter. Adjust the pile smoothly against the fence and then turn the clamp wheel down tight. This is why a piece of scrap cardboard is used, so there are no clamp impressions on the cards. Then pull the handle down and cut the pile. Release the clamp and put the cut strip aside and continue to repeat the process until a good quantity are cut into strips. Now to cut the strips into single cards. Adjust the fence to 2 5/8 inches and now cut them into singles. I believe it was done exactly in this process because when cutting small strips of anything on one of these cutters, the clamp does not have enough surface area to clamp onto and the pile tends to sometimes fan out a bit. This would be the reason we see some T206's with the tops and bottoms cut at equal angles known to many as diamond cuts. The cards could not be cut any other way because if you follow a diamond cut angle through a whole sheet, the cut will be maybe an inch or so into the picture on one side of the sheet and on the other side the cut will be between the boarders of two cards. So first they were cut into vertical strips and then cut into singles. Hope this is not too confusing. I could always draw a diagram to explain the diamond cut angles.

http://www.bookbindersmuseum.com/ind...id=1:equipment

I like untrimmed applesauce

Why do you have to start a new thread to point to a thread you already started? I am relatively new to the board. Since I have been here I have seen you admit to altering cards and at the same time get mad that TPG grades altered cards (but not for you). At this point it seems to be a dead horse that you can't seem to stop beating.

Ronnie, You explained the cutting process well. I barely recall in middle school, setting type and cutting business cards, tickets etc in the antique print shop. I recall that happening to us on occasion, when we tried to cut the sheets. The bottom row of business cards would show a straight(er) edge

A question that you may not be able to answer, With baseball card sheets. Would the outer four edges of the sheets be cut after printing?

Trimmed
 

When I was younger, the word meant something totally different...