PSA-A Cautionary Tale!
 

I wanted to share a recent experience with PSA. I am not posting this to start a debate on who was right or who was wrong, etc, etc. I just wanted you all to get an idea of the company that PSA is, and give you a peak behind the curtain so to speak.

In early September I decided to use my 15 free vouchers that I had from renewing my membership with PSA in August at the National on 8 cards I wanted graded and I used the the seven remaining on cards I wanted to be reviewed. I contacted Joe Orlando in advance of sending the review in, as I was sending some very high end cards, that were worth substantial dollars. He indicated that I should send the card in to his attention and that he would oversee PSA doing a "crack and review" of these cards to give the graders the absolute best look at these cards during the review process. I agreed and off the cards went. Within 5 days the 8 cards I sent in to be graded popped. About a week and a half later I finally saw where my 7 cards that were being reviewed popped as well. Each of the 7 cards stayed in the same grade as they were when I sent them in, is what the online submission check indicated. I immediately reached out to Joe via email asking for an explanation on a couple of the cards, as I was really perplexed as to what was holding a couple cards back. The submission popped and my email to Joe was sent on Tuesday October 1st, 2013. Joe immediately emailed me back indicating he would get back to me. Tuesday goes by and I don't hear from anyone. Wednesday goes by and I don't hear from anyone. On Thursday, I for some reason am driven to go back into the PSA site and check my grades again. That's when I see that one of my cards is no longer the same grade as it was initially. A 1960 Topps Hank Aaron PSA 8.5 (Pop 2) is now listed as a PSA 7. Upon seeing this, I send Joe an quick email that read "Joe, Should I be concerned that my 1960 Aaron PSA 8.5 is now showing up as a PSA 7 on the submission page"? He promptly emails me back and says he will call me in 10 minutes.

Thirty minutes later my phone rings and Joe is on the other line. He starts by saying in his 14 years of working at PSA that this has never happened (Total BS and I know so! In fact a collecting friend had a reviewed card damage while in the care of PSA). Despite starting the conversation with a lie, I didn't react, but listened to him explain that PSA dinged the corner of my card cracking the card out and putting it in a CS1, that PSA would reimburse me for what I paid for the card, and that they were really sorry.

Me: Damn Joe, its not so much about the money, its the fact that I can't go out and just replace this card. This is a POP 2 card (Now 1) and a PSA 9 in this card is a $13-$15K card.

Joe: I know Matt, we are very sorry, this has never happened before, but let me know what you paid for the card, and I will get you a check.

Me: Explain to me why my grades popped the Aaron was listed as a PSA 8.5

Joe: Explained that they wanted to call me before I saw my grades, so they could explain that the 60 Aaron was damaged, so they put the card in the system as a 8.5, but then changed it.

( I didnt understand his explanation, so I asked him to explain the above again, to which his voice then completely changed, like I was putting him out over this. So I get a very stern explanation as written above).

Me: I pause for a second and then say, Man I really kind of sick over this.

Joe: Your sick over a baseball card. There just baseball cards, Give me a break! (This is where things went south in a hurry)

Me: (I am pissed over the comment he just made and am now speaking very sternly) Yes Joe, I am sick over a baseball card. This is not a business to me, its a hobby and I collect high end cards that I can't go out and just replace. Send me back my cards immediately, and after I speak with my council, I will give you a number on the Hank Aaron card.

Joe: Don't ever call me threatening me again (Hangs Up on Me).

I was subsequently immediately banned from the CU Message Boards, I had a second submission that was logged with PSA, unlogged and sent back to me RAW. I was informed that I can no longer do business with PSA in any capacity.



I knew exactly what I was saying when I made the comment to Joe about speaking with my council, and I also knew exactly how he would take my comment. Never was I intending to contact my lawyer over a baseball card. I really just wanted to speak with a couple people I know in the hobby that I trust, one of which was my buddy that had the same thing happen to. So with that being said, I take some of the blame for this, but understand that I am not sensationalizing anything you've read above. I am still to this day shocked that the president of PSA would comment to anyone "There just baseball cards, Give me a break"!

I have gotten the card and my other cards back. I just got a check for what I paid for the Aaron, so in their eyes they have made me whole.

Be careful who your doing business with, as this showed me alot about the kind of company PSA is, or better yet who they aren't! I won't spend another cent with that company, and clearly by Joe's comments, he doesnt give a shit about the collector. This is just a business to them, and although I should have known better, I guess because I still view this as the hobby I've done since I was a kid, thought differently about PSA.

http://www.collectorfocus.com/images...-aaron-psa-8.5

sorry to hear about your experience...BUT I am in now way surprised at all by this either!

Sorry this happened to you, Matt.

Mistakes happen - that's part of life. How you handle those mistakes says a lot about you (or your company). They definitely didn't handle this well.

Do you have a scan of the 7. I would like to see how bad the ding is.

I'm confused. As a collector who doesnt care so much about the money, you care enough about what PSA thinks to send in an 8.5 looking for a 9? Last I checked a bump up on a flip doesn't actually make the card any nicer. That card looks (or looked) pretty damn perfect to me, and I don't even need to look at the flip to come to that conclusion. I don't mean to sound insensitive, and it sucks that your experience went down like that, but you (and many others) bring this on yourselves.

Scan
 

I will scan it when I get a few minutes and post it, but I think the 7 is an overreaction, it looks like a 8 to me.

Conor...while I kinda, somewhat agree with what your sayin'...PSA "created" this whole "game" and now people are coming to them with fistfuls of cash...wanting to "play"...and PSA is telling them to go suck an egg...great business model!!!

Fair question Conor, it's certainly about the money regarding the value of my cards. When I said it wasn't about the money, that was more in regards to reimbursing me for the card based on what I paid. At that point the money didn't mean anything to me, I wanted the card. That's a beautiful card, and at that point I just wanted that card back.

Jeesh! Sounds like J O handled it in a piss poor way.:( Dave.

Matt,

Welcome to the PSA "persona non grata" club and please wear your banishment as a badge of honor.

Wow, not trying to take sides by any means, but this does not sound like the Joe Orlando I know....Matt, again, not trying to take sides and I'm sorry for your incident....

I originally thought this was going to be a "feel good" story....after all the attention Joe paid to your "free" submission. Aside from the banishment from the boards and suspension from PSA membership, what else should he have been expected to do???

I half expected this to end w/ them putting your now NM card back into a PSA 8.5 holder to make things better!!

Certainly the response to you was poor, but put yourself in his shoes. He got $0 from you, spent lots of his time (at least more than a commoner), and now he needs to cut you a big check to make you whole. Not a good day for him. The threat of lawyers now getting involved would be the icing on the cake if I were him!

Matt, I would hate to be in your position too and would likely have responded in a similar fashion!!

FWIW, I have never submitted anything to PSA and don't know anyone who works there.

The "free" submission isn't all that free. First, it is essentially what you're paying for with your Collector's Club membership ($130 or $190), and one does have to pay for shipping there and back. The way they are advertising it is that it is just like any other submission, and is a "Thank you" to the consumer for signing up for direct grading privileges.

Oh, and Derek: beautiful Helmar stamps...heck of a collection there! I especially enjoy that Evers was the cover photo :D

Fair enough, Matt, but my point was, if you're not looking to sell the card, why even send it in looking for an "upgrade" in the first place? Would you have liked it more if it was a 9? This is the part of the slabby mindset that I'm still trying to understand.

MBM, horrible story, bro. Feel for you. Not surprised PSA handled it that way. As a collector, I am all about SGC and BGS where possible these days.

I agree with the post above, in that I would never send in or walk in a card, whether for a cracked review or even a cross, unless I was about to sell it. Even then, the risk of damaging it always gets to me.

End of the day, we know what we have as collectors, and we don't need some grader or company or sticker to tell us. Especially when they change their own minds so often. Even when it comes to value, the collective eyes of collectors will always determine the price. We've seen some 2s sell for more than some 3s, etc. All about eye appeal; screw the grades!

this should be in the card collecting bible

Basing the compensation for a problem on what I paid would get me pretty mad. Mostly because a lot of what I might get graded was bought in the 80's.

The difference in value between the original grade and the grade after the damage would be better, maybe with a bit extra if it's a particularly tough card.

It all makes me glad I never wanted to pay the cover charge to use them.

Steve B

Matt- You're glad about SGC and BGS when it comes to collecting....One small question....Resale value??

There are a lot of other factors to consider when choosing a TPG other than resale value such as integrity, consistency, turnaround times, customer service (how they handle problems), etc.

If resale value was the most important thing, wouldn't we all be driving the same kind of car?

Actually from my recent research SGC is outselling PSA it seems on most 1950s and 1960s vintage. Just my 2 cents.

Hey Kevin,

Hope all is good. My feelings on that aspect are kind of buried in my earlier post; but in a bit more detail here-- if I were to sell a given BGS or SGC card in
the current TPG landscape, my first move would be to try and let the card speak for itself, find a buyer of the card over holder, and see if it can fetch my desired price ballpark regardless of its holder. I've found that, depending ENTIRELY on the card, the holder can really be moot. If I couldn't find the right buyer, I would then entertain reviews or crossovers.

There is no doubt that the crystal meth known as the PSA Registry has led so many more cards to land in PSA holders. Granted, many of those cards are not high-value pieces, but rather modern commons. Either way, this popularity is priced in to the PSA brand. When it comes time to sell a card, which I rarely do, if the card could not perform like I hoped after a long while, I'd be okay crossing it. But it would have to languish a while before I subjected it to cracking.

And again, all depends if we are talking about a Frederick Foto Ruth or a 1981 Topps common.

Ultimately I am really not a seller, so operate on the buy/collecting side. As such, I see no reason to pay a higher price because of a premium caused by an online game in which I'm not a participant. Not at all a knock on Registry collectors, to each his own. But as a buyer, one can get an often superior card in a more attractive holder for less than its PSA counterpart. To keep in a collection forever, that's a no-brainer.

I try to find the best example of a card I want in my price range, regardless of holder. If ever I have to sell, then if I can break even or make a few bucks, I'm cool. Even a small loss I find acceptable. The amount I could concievably get by cracking, reviewing, or crossing would have to be really large to justify the risk and cost. But again I'm not a professional seller seeking maximum profit. If I ever had to sell off my cards at this point, I'd probably be in a real bad spot in life and happy to just break even. Would take a major disaster for me to sell my cards-- they provide such tremendous joy and escape from any stress!

No, because most of the cars that have the highest resale value are the most expensive ones! Lexus, BMW, Mercedes, etc....

lesson learned; don't let other people handle your cards unless it's absolutely necessary. and if i play the crackout game, i'd rather me messing up my own card than someone else.

edit: tbh here this could've happened at sgc or beckett...and they would've probably done the same thing i.e. refund you the difference in market value for the grade.

Handle 10 million cards, something is bound to go wrong. It sucks that it happened to be you, but what more could Joe do than offer to pay you for the card?

Matt,

I feel for you, but how were you able to a card of this value under the CC voucher? Typically, the max declared value for this submission is only $500, so if PSA went by their typical policy, they would have only reimbursed you the declared value that you put on the PSA submission form, and the max value would only be $500. In addition, you typically can't split a review and grading submission in the same voucher. It has to be all review or all grading. Trust me, I'm in the same dilemma as I have a 15 card voucher and only around 8-9 cards to submit in standard size.

I know you feel bad for losing your card, but PSA did reimburse you for the cost of your card, and it looks like they even sent back your damaged card back to you. Hopefully, some day, you'll be able to replace it again, and just think of this as one of those unfortunate events in a life that had a lot more better days in it.

That's not true at all, Kevin. According to cars.com, the best re-sale value for a mid-size sedan (amongst any class e.g. Mercedes, BMW or Lexus) is a Honda Accord. So, let me rephrase the question.

Given the fact that a Honda Accord has the highest re-sale value of a mid-size sedan, why would someone purchase any other mid-size sedan other than a Honda Accord?

All that doesn't matter though. My point is that there are several other factors to consider when choosing a TPG, other than re-sale value. In fact, I bet you if you were to start a poll asking members what their most important factor is in choosing a TPG, re-sale value would probably be close to the bottom.

Sorry to hear about this situation. I own a business and no matter what the products or services we sell customer service trumps them all. Mistakes happen, but we run through the brick wall to make our clients and customers happy. Its the right thing to do, however, not everyone practices this or follows through. At least PSA made you whole, but understand your frustration as a collector myself about your card. I still consider PSA, SGC and BGS, the best in the business for grading services and they all add value depending on your collecting interests.

David- no offense, but I dont get that. No matter how much someone enjoys the hobby, and their relationship with their preferred TPG, they are going to want top dollar for their card when they sell it. Right now I am buying T206 SGC 84's on average for around $350 and less. The comparable PSA 7's are going for close to double that...Are you saying that's not important to most collectors?

I agree. What other option did he have?

I agree that Matt shouldn't have expected more than an offer to pay for the card but, in reading his story, I think what really put a bad taste in his mouth was Joe's attitude. When he told Joe he was sick about it, Joe basically told him it's just a bb card and to get over it. A good CSR would have been more empathetic. Had Joe been more understanding about it, I don't believe Matt would have ever posted this story and kept the situation to himself.

Once again, that does not sound like the Joe Orlando I know....

I find is amazing that people are dumping on Matt.

Lets see things Joe could have done better.

1- Not lie to Matt that this was the first time they have damaged a card
2- Not comment about how they are just baseball cards
3- not try to dick around with the card. You damaged it call him right away and don't screw around with putting different grades in the system at different times.
4- Not hang up on him. Regardless of if Matt was referring to a lawyer or a hobby friend the correct thing to do would be to try and address it rather then cutting him off. Completely unprofessional in every way shape or form and I think most employers would be very unhappy if someone was treated this way.

I had a situation with SGC recently and it was handled in completely the opposite manner. I got a direct phone call, was able to say my piece and was provided a satisfactory outcome.

The fact of the matter is that to PSA you are a number in the system and that is all. Unless you are really close to Joe you can't get anywhere.

Its a shame this happened at all but the response makes me sick.

James G

Guys- No offense, and I certainly dont have anything against Matt, but his side of the story is being agreed upon without any benefit of the doubt to Joe. Why in the world would Joe say, "it's just a baseball card". From a business perspective, that doesn't even make sense....His business is baseball cards...

bad analogy. cars degrade with usage. baseball cards don't get used. one is a function or original price and usage of the item, the other one is primarily based on supply and demand.

kevin

Doesn't a car buyer want top dollar when they go to sell it too? So, why isn't everyone that buys a mid-size sedan buying a Honda Accord? Simple answer. Because while resale value is a factor, it's definitely not the most important factor.

Sounds like you drive a Honda Accord....Are you happy with the smaller size compared to a Toyota Camry or Ford Fusion?

Kevin,

I sold my Honda Accord about 6 months ago. It had 427,000 miles on it (yes, you read that right) and still going strong. When I went to purchase another vehicle, it was a Toyota Camry (I posted it in the "What do you drive" thread). Re-sale value played very little importance in my buying decision.

Edited to add: I still believe if you conducted a poll on the board, you would find that resale value is not really an important factor when choosing a TPG.

Matt, it was not my intent to dump on you if my comments seem that way. I apologize if it came out like that.

Also, I don't know if it was just coincidence, but Joe's comment about how they are just baseball cards, that line is also in the sig line for Adam W, who I believe, successfully sued PSA in the past. Maybe Joe had seen that line before, and it just slipped out of his mouth.

Sorry to hear this happened...I would think this type of thing happens a lot when cracking out cards. I'm actually surprised that PSA would even offer this service. If it were my company I would never crack a slab.

Sorry this happened to you Matt, good luck on finding another Aaron.

PSA dropped the ball on this, sounds like it could have been handled much better. Banning you from the CU boards for a mistake they made just seems so petty.

Crappy situation man. That really surprises me about Joe's comments though. Doesn't sound like him at all.

I have a quick question:

I was always under the impression that PSA reviewed the card with the card still in it's original holder (I have received reviewed cards back from PSA still in their original holders). If PSA cracked the holder isn't it safe to assume they reviewed the card and thought it deserved a bump? If so, should PSA fork over the going rate for a 9?

Also, I'm sorry this happened to you.

Jason

I know when I submitted my cards to PSA for review both cards were sent back to me in their original holders and did not receive bumps.

I realize this comment falls into the category of "20-20 hindsight." But, even though PSA rarely damages cards (I assume), it's simply not worth the risk of seeking an upgrade on a card as rare and pretty as that '60 Aaron.

I was always under that impression as well regarding a review.

I don't mean to be harsh but a few things don't quite add up to me though. Granted we're not privy to the conversation verbatim, only the dialog that you posted Matt but the conversation seemed to degrade and end quite abruptly, almost too abruptly? And with Joe saying "Don't ever call me threatening me again"....maybe its semantics, but wasn't he the one that called you?

I can't believe this is the first time Joe/PSA have ever been "threatened" with someone mentioning they wish to speak to their counsel before agreeing to a settlement with Joe/PSA. I'm sure they've been faced with that situation many times, I find it hard to believe Joe would fly off the handle at such a comment by hanging up on you, banning you from the boards and refusing to do any business with you in the future based solely on that comment alone.

Just seems that an awful lot went down in what seems like a very short phone conversation. I can't believe its normal for Joe to reach out to a submitter regarding an issue unless its an extremely rare situation or potentially high monetary consequence. And in those situation I would like to think Joe would act as a professional, but that certainly doesn't seem like the case here.

Verry bad story.

I will try to answer a few questions. I had probably more of a relationship with Joe than most people do. We exchanged emails on several occasions, he and I used to speak quite frequently at the National's, so some of the out of the norm treatment I am sure came from this relationship we had. So please keep the above in mind regarding why I was allowed to send in two submissions on renewal vouchers, why I was able to send in cards greater than $500 in value and why a crack and review strategy took place versus a typical review in the holder. I was told that the crack and review method gave the graders the best view of the card in a review scenerio, so I went with it! Maybe I was naive throughout this, but I trusted Joe to take care of it, and never gave any thought to my card being damaged in the process. Again, this is my opinion as to why I was allowed to do the above, I frankly didn't realize this was out of the norm behavior, and was available to anyone that asked.

I completely understand that I am somewhat at fault for the way things transpired between PSA(particularly Joe) and myself. They made me whole on the card, (based on what I paid for it), which is the silver lining in this whole ordeal. I will never be able to go out and replace this card though, for what I had into it originally. As others have mentioned, it's the way Joe handled the whole ordeal that really has me up in arms. I was shocked that Joe commented like he did to me. His response caused my response, which is what ultimately caused the hang-up and subsequent banning that took place. I frankly had no intention to air out my dirty laundry in the public on this board or CU until PSA proactively banned me from their message boards and subsequently sent my submission back to me informing me that my business was no longer wanted.

I am not looking for pity, and don't expect everyone to agree with me, as to how this was handled. Hell, I am sure some of you are thinking that I got exactly what I deserved trying to bump the card in the first place rather than being happy with what I already had. I don't fault anyone for having an opinion on the matter, I think differing opinions are what makes for a solid community such as we have here on Net 54.

At the end of the day, I just wanted to share my experience.

Hey Matt
Sorry for your experience. I too have had several long conversations with Joe over the last few years. I have a feeling he felt threatened by your statement and made a comment that was what it was, but maybe it was in the heat of an argument, and not really meant. I think Joe loves the hobby and cards as much as almost anyone. However, it's not "life and death" so maybe that is what he was thinking when he made the statement about it only being a card. It's a shame your card got damaged. There is no sugar coating that part of it. I hope you, Joe and PSA can make amends in the future. I have found Joe to be a very likeable hobbyist.

I completely agree!

Ah, the banning of long-standing board members who contribute quality discourse and content for years, merely for having a legitimate and professionally worded reaction to a PSA mistake-- how they love to ban people over there. It is their right, it is their site, and sometimes it is warranted-- but they use that hammer often. However will those of us who've been banned continue on?

From the Wagner to the cellos to the George Bush card to trimmed 1975 minis, PSA rarely gets out in front of a problem with candor and forthrightness. Some mistakes are tolerable in business and life, but it is how a company or person handles them that really counts.

The little dance they did with Miller on the posting of his grades, and the fact that the head of a card grading company would say, 'It's just a card,' is pretty lame. Customer service wins people over and over again.

One has to wonder where-- without people logging in serial numbers of slabbed commons on their site, just to compete over GPAs-- PSA would be.

If someone ever invents a NEW REGISTRY that accommodates cards of ALL GRADING COMPANIES and catches fire-- PSA is in deep trouble.

Because in terms of consistency, holder aesthetics, turnaround times, and customer service, they are simply not the leader. Yet I can see how sellers or submitters have to deal with them and walk on eggshells, the way diamond dealers have to deal with their business' own cartel.

Matt,

I fully understand your frustration. A person in Joe Orlando's position needs to learn to take some criticism graciously and show some empathy towards someone who just learned that he lost a treasured collectible. His behavior reminds me of the "Soup Nazi" episode on Seinfeld with this on-going pattern of instantly banning his customers.